DAL/NWA SLI Hearings in a nutshell

[Superpilot92]

I agree with you most of the time and like your level-headed points, but here you're back to the old argument again. You guys have been explaining that this is not how the integration is being determined.

Once again, for those not paying attention: new DAL pilots are flying the 767 because more senior guys don't want it. NWA pilots have different values as a group. I was told a few posts ago that it doesn't matter what you "are" holding, DAL's position is what you "could" hold if everyone bid the most senior position available to them. True or not???

If that was the case the last Delta pilot wouldbt be in front of 400 NWA pilots. uke:

 

[General Lee]

I agree with you most of the time and like your level-headed points, but here you're back to the old argument again. You guys have been explaining that this is not how the integration is being determined.

Once again, for those not paying attention: new DAL pilots are flying the 767 because more senior guys don't want it. NWA pilots have different values as a group. I was told a few posts ago that it doesn't matter what you "are" holding, DAL's position is what you "could" hold if everyone bid the most senior position available to them. True or not???

They are flying it mainly because we got 17 757-200ER from AA (all ex TWA birds) quickly, and expanded rapidly. There are plenty of newhires now that are line holders in NYC, and that discounts the theory that all of them are on reserve and hating it. It is probably some of the best flying in the system, but you might have to fly it in NYC, and that, like DTW, may not be liked by some. If you want to blame bad bases, well, you guys have Snowtown, Notown, and Motown.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AirportBum]

Wasn't my point.

My point is a newhire DAL pilot only has "expectations" of flying a 767 because no one senior to him bid that position (or maybe by default as you point out because you needed to staff quickly; either way it has created artificial expectations due to this unique scenario.)

In either case, you guys have been telling me that your proposal uses the "stovepipe" method, so we're just pi$$ing into the wind here.

For what it's worth, I agree with your integration method with the exception of the ~500 staple. The method was designed to put furlough fodder below all DAL pilots. I get it that this is an opener, but the true middle will lie somewhere closer to "stovepiping" all the way down.

DOH won't fly with you guys, and a staple won't with us. Fortunately for everyone, the arbitrators will have to decide where the middle is.

(Standing by for the same old rhetoric about the -9's and -200's ALL going away, and how we would be lucky to be Compass pilots by Christmas )

 

[General Lee]

Wasn't my point.

My point is a newhire DAL pilot only has "expectations" of flying a 767 because no one senior to him bid that position (or maybe by default as you point out because you needed to staff quickly; either way it has created artificial expectations due to this unique scenario.)

In either case, you guys have been telling me that your proposal uses the "stovepipe" method, so we're just pi$$ing into the wind here.

For what it's worth, I agree with your integration method with the exception of the ~500 staple. The method was designed to put furlough fodder below all DAL pilots. I get it that this is an opener, but the true middle will lie somewhere closer to "stovepiping" all the way down.

DOH won't fly with you guys, but a staple won't with us.

(Standing by for the same old rhetoric about the -9's and -200's ALL going away, and how we would be lucky to Compass pilots by Christmas )

I can understand that, but it is what it is. If there are any future airplane parkings (and we KNOW that the 742s and some of the DC9s are going away---we do), our guys shouldn't have to take part in that. Those planes were going away regardless. Now, we may get enough planes to cover for those pilots (new 777s etc) that will save them, but if we did not, those pilots had career expectations of being temporarily furloughed, and that has to be addressed. None of our pilots should lose a job due to one of your planes going bye bye. Sad, but true. If those planes were leaving in 5 years, it may not be like that. But, from what I am hearing, some of your planes may be gone fairly soon. Incontrast, we MAY BE getting some MD90s (I keep hearing 25 based in MSP sooner than later), and they would be flown on our side until the certificates are merged, along with new 777s and 737-700s (all arriving sooner than your 787s (you may not get any), as soon as the Boeing strike is resolved). Future expansion is currently one sided, but will benefit us all after the SLI.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yes and those airplanes do not have anything replacing them coming to mainline do they?

If the 717's do come I am sure that the issue of furlough will be negated and DC-9 pilots will fly them.

 

[ThisistheDream]

I see some ratio like 7 to 5 for DAL with little more or less in some parts to make a middle ground intergration. Along with that Fences that protect current DAL and NWA pilots in the aircraft they are currently holding so as long that pilot doesnt not bid out of that 767 or A330 they can have it for 20 years or how long they want. The merger with Usair and AWA is a mess since Usair has a very very old pilot group and AWA had a very young group. Plus Usair had over 1000 pilots on furlough with 12 plus years of seniority where 12 yr AWA pilots where captains. Going by DOH would have been more of a staple in that scenario. NWA DAL overall have a better way to merge in a middle ground with a ratio tied to DOH than Usair AWA ever could. Also in the USA today a few days ago it said that with boeing on strike the 787 delivery is being delayed more along with DAL deliveries of 4 777 and some 757/737 for a total of 10 DAL delayed aircraft. So its look like not much growth from either side going into next year

 

[General Lee]

I see some ratio like 7 to 5 for DAL with little more or less in some parts to make a middle ground intergration. Along with that Fences that protect current DAL and NWA pilots in the aircraft they are currently holding so as long that pilot doesnt not bid out of that 767 or A330 they can have it for 20 years or how long they want. The merger with Usair and AWA is a mess since Usair has a very very old pilot group and AWA had a very young group. Plus Usair had over 1000 pilots on furlough with 12 plus years of seniority where 12 yr AWA pilots where captains. Going by DOH would have been more of a staple in that scenario. NWA DAL overall have a better way to merge in a middle ground with a ratio tied to DOH than Usair AWA ever could.

There are other things you have to consider, like current pay, number of widebodies, future orders, and career expectations with regard to the DC9s and 742s. Sorry, DOH has nothing to do with this, and the USAir East guys learned that quick. Our list was relative seniority along with protection for our junior guys if the 742s and some DC9s were parked (sounds very plausible)---hence the bottom 400 all NWA. It would NOT be fair for any of our people to be furloughed thanks to NWA planes going away. And even if we have nobody furloughed, the list should still reflect that possibility. The Nicelau award had the top 500 all USAir East because of a certain type of flying that was "different" to AWA's, and the bottom 400 here reflect the possibility of a furlough.(very very good chance the cargo ops plus the 742s are bye bye soon)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree, but we will not have to leave it up to the arbitrator.
The want a bump they may get it.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Don't you know that only the nwa 787s will be affected by the strike, not any of the aircraft delta has on order. Oh, don't forget all the md90s and 717s that they are getting.

I see some ratio like 7 to 5 for DAL with little more or less in some parts to make a middle ground intergration. Along with that Fences that protect current DAL and NWA pilots in the aircraft they are currently holding so as long that pilot doesnt not bid out of that 767 or A330 they can have it for 20 years or how long they want. The merger with Usair and AWA is a mess since Usair has a very very old pilot group and AWA had a very young group. Plus Usair had over 1000 pilots on furlough with 12 plus years of seniority where 12 yr AWA pilots where captains. Going by DOH would have been more of a staple in that scenario. NWA DAL overall have a better way to merge in a middle ground with a ratio tied to DOH than Usair AWA ever could. Also in the USA today a few days ago it said that with boeing on strike the 787 delivery is being delayed more along with DAL deliveries of 4 777 and some 757/737 for a total of 10 DAL delayed aircraft. So its look like not much growth from either side going into next year

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

What exactly do you mean? Did not look at all areas of dalpas proposed sli closely except for mine. Doh I am roughly 6800, straigh percentage 7300(500 with dohs junior to me now senior) and dalpas stovepipe about 7800(almost 1100 junior, now senior). Out of my hands.

I agree, but we will not have to leave it up to the arbitrator.
The want a bump they may get it.

 

[ThisistheDream]

DAL and NWA both are taking delivery delays next year due to the strike at boeing​

By Marilyn Adams, USA TODAY
One month after more than 26,000 Boeing (BA) commercial aircraft workers walked off their jobs, the strike at the world's top-selling plane maker is starting to hurt its airline customers and suppliers.
Members of Boeing's International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers walked out of factories in Washington, Oregon and Kansas on Sept. 6 after contract talks broke down over job security and pay. It's the third strike by Boeing's machinists in 13 years.
No negotiations are scheduled. Boeing says it offered the union the richest contract in the industry, including pay raises for the next three years and a richer pension plan. Union leaders disagree.

Five factories have been idle for a month, and the impact is beginning to be felt. During the third quarter, Boeing delivered only 84 planes, down from 109 in the year-ago quarter. The strike is affecting assembly of Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner — already a year behind schedule — along with 737s, 777s, 767s, and 747s.
Delta Air Lines (DAL), the USA's No. 3 carrier, was expecting this fall to receive four long-range Boeing 777s and 737-700s, for a total of 10 new jets this year. "All I can tell you is we are expecting some delay in our deliveries," Delta spokeswoman Betsy Talton said

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yes, and all of them are in or near final production. If this strike is ended sooner rather than later, most of these will have minimal delay.

 

[Superpilot92]

There are other things you have to consider, like current pay, number of widebodies, future orders, and career expectations with regard to the DC9s and 742s. Sorry, DOH has nothing to do with this, and the USAir East guys learned that quick. Our list was relative seniority along with protection for our junior guys if the 742s and some DC9s were parked (sounds very plausible)---hence the bottom 400 all NWA. It would NOT be fair for any of our people to be furloughed thanks to NWA planes going away. And even if we have nobody furloughed, the list should still reflect that possibility. The Nicelau award had the top 500 all USAir East because of a certain type of flying that was "different" to AWA's, and the bottom 400 here reflect the possibility of a furlough.(very very good chance the cargo ops plus the 742s are bye bye soon)


Bye Bye--General Lee

DAL pilots can have protection from "Assumed" DC9 parkings over the next 4 years without Stapling the bottom 10% of NWA pilots below them for the rest of their careers. Fence it up as a protection but a staple of those pilots because DAL pilots want near term protection for "what ifs" doesnt warrant long term seniority loss for the NWA pilots.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yes, and all of them are in or near final production. If this strike is ended sooner rather than later, most of these will have minimal delay.

Notice that the "What ifs" are always assumed to have positive outcomes if it involves the Delta side, yet the "what ifs" for the NWA side are always assumed worst case scenario as far as the Delta side is concerned? Wonder why

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Not true. Fact is that the 742's and DC-9's are the oldest in the fleet. The MD-88 is next along with the 320.
It is wise to assume that the two airframes that are the oldest are going to leave the soonest. In addition this, the DAL fleet plan has the 88 staying to 2018. Phase out at 2015 if fuel goes North of 150 again.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

What exactly do you mean? Did not look at all areas of dalpas proposed sli closely except for mine. Doh I am roughly 6800, straigh percentage 7300(500 with dohs junior to me now senior) and dalpas stovepipe about 7800(almost 1100 junior, now senior). Out of my hands.

And if you look closely at the fleets and then take this SLI and marry up each position with the next person in line you will be able to be in the same relative position in your equipment that you could hold today, assuming everyone bid the most senior position.

 

[AirportBum]

You obviously know this, but many other things such as vacation, days/holidays off, etc are affected by seniority. To tell Cobra that his losing 1100 numbers is fine because he will keep his seat doesn't show the whole picture.

You guys keep mentioning it, but has there been a phasing out date for the -200's? I know there's been some talk of losing some cargo contracts, but I haven't heard anything concrete about the fleet being parked.

 

[AirportBum]

This situation is so dynamic, and much of NWA's management moves have been affected by this merger. They're now planning based on what the new DAL wants (whether anyone will admit it or not, we're still two separate entities right???) This has been going on since long before the merger was officially announced.

One could argue (and I will be surprised if our lawyers don't) that our management has been intentionally NOT replacing the -9 because they know/knew the merger was coming.

No one knows what the standalone NWA plan would have been without the merger because they've known, since long before we have, that this merger was coming. You can argue all day long that we're shrinking down to nothing, and I can just as easily say that if it weren't for Delta, we would already have a replacement ordered.

Tell me, was it NWA that didn't want the C-Series jet, or was it new DAL management that was actually making the call? I know what the press release said, but that was after the merger had been announced right?

Just something to think about. Northwest would have been just fine (probably without furloughing 500 pilots) without this merger, and to staple based on "what might be" is not right. I have faith that the arbitrators will see this.

 

[PuffDriver]

Notice that the "What ifs" are always assumed to have positive outcomes if it involves the Delta side, yet the "what ifs" for the NWA side are always assumed worst case scenario as far as the Delta side is concerned? Wonder why

NWA's whole rebuttal is what if. Delta's case is what IS. There is a huge difference. Your 15 minutes are over newbie.

 

[PuffDriver]

You obviously know this, but many other things such as vacation, days/holidays off, etc are affected by seniority. To tell Cobra that his losing 1100 numbers is fine because he will keep his seat doesn't show the whole picture.

You guys keep mentioning it, but has there been a phasing out date for the -200's? I know there's been some talk of losing some cargo contracts, but I haven't heard anything concrete about the fleet being parked.

It was stated by a Delta manager today, publicly, that the -200s are going away. There goes some of that super duper wowsy wubsy flying...and with them, those super duper premium jobs.