crw overrun transcript

[Stifler's Mom]

I haven't been at that airport so what's at the end? Would they have cleared all obstacles with flaps 8 or even at some flap setting in between 8 and 20?

CRW basically cut the top of a mountain (large hill) off and installed an airport. Nothing to clear because you are already at the highest point of terrain in the area. What is waiting for you is the sharp downslope of the remaining mountain (large hill).

 

[ohplease!]

That shouldn't be necessary, though. I will say that some of our checking priorities in flight are a bit misplaced. For instance, I think it's useless to physically point to the newly set altitude (when calling it out is just as good), but at the same time you're not required to point to the flap indicator while verifying they are correctly set. The latter is much more likely to kill you.

I disagree... pointing forces you to look at it which forces you to ACTUALLY verify to what position something is set ...too easy to answer out of habit and give a "correct" response that does not catch an error after you've said the same ("normal") thing hundereds of times.

P.S. Maybe flaps 20 all the time isn't such a bad idea. Seems to work well for Comair...never mind, I guess that extra call after takeoff would be far to much work for some people who are so terribly overworked now.

 

[Raskal]

...TT for the Captain in 12 months? 855 hours. The F/O? 928. These are "hard" hours, not "paid" hours. Were they "Fatigued"? A recent study of regional pilots indicated that 96 percent were fatigued. Don't care if they commuted, lived in base, lived at the airport.

Holy Sh!t...

 

[DrewBlows]

Does PSA set the flaps before starting the taxi? My current company does, my last company did not. Having done both, it is my opinion that setting flaps before starting the taxi is a far superior method.

 

[buscap]

P.S. Maybe flaps 20 all the time isn't such a bad idea. Seems to work well for Comair...never mind, I guess that extra call after takeoff would be far to much work for some people who are so terribly overworked now.

I smell what you're stepping in, but the crappy climb performance of this thing at flaps 20 is the reason we don't, or so I've been told.

Obviously the required takeoff distance is better at 20, but once you're in the air, 8 is better. But with high speed aborts being such a booger on many of the short runways we go to in the 50, it certainly is something to consider.

 

[CX880]

Another case of the failed mentality to take to the air then deal with it up there. What they should have done which he obviously recognized after the accident was to abort instead of adding the flaps on the go. Just remember whenever it's getting too comfortable in the cockpit with the other guy/gal, stop for a second and refocus on what you're doing.

 

[paulsalem]

Holy Sh!t...

That's not really uncommon for us.

Does PSA set the flaps before starting the taxi? My current company does, my last company did not. Having done both, it is my opinion that setting flaps before starting the taxi is a far superior method.

Nope, we do them during the taxi. Along with verifying trim and t/o data settings.

 

[ohplease!]

I smell what you're stepping in, but the crappy climb performance of this thing at flaps 20 is the reason we don't, or so I've been told.

Obviously the required takeoff distance is better at 20, but once you're in the air, 8 is better. But with high speed aborts being such a booger on many of the short runways we go to in the 50, it certainly is something to consider.

I've been feed the crappy climb performance line too...my thought was, if it climbs so poorly at 20, why on earth would I want to set 20 if there is a short runway or an obstical?

 

[buscap]

I've been feed the crappy climb performance line too...my thought was, if it climbs so poorly at 20, why on earth would I want to set 20 if there is a short runway or an obstical?

Yeah, I know. We've been fed the line, but never really shown why. It's been a while, but during a checkride debrief, someone took the time to show me an airport where it made sense to go with flaps 8 because of an obstacle in one direction, but flaps 20 in the other direction for stopping purposes.

It was an eye opener, but I just can't remember all the details.

Or I could have the whole thing dorked up due to memory loss. I forget...

On another note; whomever pulled the strings to get the EMAS in there deserves a medal. Odds are good it was some politician related to the installing construction company, but hey...that's politics. At least it got done.

 

[777forever]

I've been feed the crappy climb performance line too...my thought was, if it climbs so poorly at 20, why on earth would I want to set 20 if there is a short runway or an obstical?

Shorter lift off point? I won't want to T/O flaps 8 in KEYW

 

[ohplease!]

Shorter lift off point? I won't want to T/O flaps 8 in KEYW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

check this link out....it appears you may have missed something

 

[paddlehigh]

PSA sets flaps after both engines have been started and usually on the taxi out.

 

[Spoolingbyu]

New Corvette license plate seen around town: PULL4D7

What they should have done which he obviously recognized after the accident was to abort instead of adding the flaps on the go.

Nice MMQBing. But I don't see how you or anyone else could advocate aborting 80-V1 for this reason. CRJ experts have said Flap 8 doesn't make the airplane unflyable (in this situation at Charlie West).

I'd opine that 80-V1 is limited to the realm of engine fire/failure, windshear and wings falling off.

Instead of more MMQBing, let's discuss the subjective nature of unflyable, and how to quantify it in the seconds between 80 and V1.

Ready GO!

 

[ASABound]

The real problem here is not that they inadvertantly took off with the wrong configuaration, but more importantly that they took off after displaying an unacceptably low level of professionalism during the preflight and initial delay.. I dont want to cast stones as to what happened on the take off (I didn't see the FDR and I have only read the transcript of the CVR). However I will say this, why not use that taxi / delay time in a productive manner for the flight? i.e both pilots can be heads down and concentrating on the T/O brief and a/c configuaration and set up. You can listen to the CVR alone and hear the lack of professionalism and command going on in that cockpit. If that guy was truly tired and wasnt adequately rested then why didnt he call Fatigued ? Ladies and Gentleman, I challenge everyone on this board whether you are a pilot for a major or flying a Beech 19OOD to carry yourself and conduct yourself in the most professional manor. MANAGE and TAKE COMMAND of your flight decks as if your spouse and child were riding in the back of your jet. THIS is SERIOUS BUSINESS. The days are over of being anything less than professional and flying these airplanes in any way other than company approved and documented procedures up to and including sterile cockpit on the ground as well as in the air. COMMAND is absolute. Lets start flying that way. Be Safe!

 

[sunlitpath]

He aborted after V1

 

[j41driver]

I kind of felt bad for the guy when he asked "why the # did I do that?" Just goes to show that it is that easy to screw up royally when you only have a second to think.

He did me wife's CFI back in 98 or 99...good guy and a good pilot. It really can happen to any of us. Be careful out there.

 

[SEVEN]

can somebody find the CVR transcripts for this gem?

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070223X00215&key=1

Don't have the CVR report yet, just the NTSB Factual Report. Enought to show that this Shuttle Crew didn't know the difference between and ILS and an ILS with the GlideSlope Unusable. Time for an IFR Refresher Course!

 

[CX880]

Nice MMQBing. But I don't see how you or anyone else could advocate aborting 80-V1 for this reason. CRJ experts have said Flap 8 doesn't make the airplane unflyable (in this situation at Charlie West).

I'd opine that 80-V1 is limited to the realm of engine fire/failure, windshear and wings falling off.

Instead of more MMQBing, let's discuss the subjective nature of unflyable, and how to quantify it in the seconds between 80 and V1.

Ready GO!

Again you are using the mentality that it's safer to take it to the sky then to deal with it on the ground, that's what caused this accident. All he had to do was abort but instead he added flaps so they could get out of there and not miss the flow window. If you're on the takeoff roll and you notice that flaps aren't set, doesn't matter if they're 0 or 8, it's an automatic abort. However, if the CA had enough reflex to continue the roll and add flaps then he should have known to disregard flaps misconfig warning and continued. Again the take off phase is not a "set it and forget it" phase of flight, there are different segments which you need to pay attention to the airplane and the roll.

 

[booo]

The real problem here is not that they inadvertantly took off with the wrong configuaration, but more importantly that they took off after displaying an unacceptably low level of professionalism during the preflight and initial delay.. I dont want to cast stones as to what happened on the take off (I didn't see the FDR and I have only read the transcript of the CVR). However I will say this, why not use that taxi / delay time in a productive manner for the flight? i.e both pilots can be heads down and concentrating on the T/O brief and a/c configuaration and set up. You can listen to the CVR alone and hear the lack of professionalism and command going on in that cockpit. If that guy was truly tired and wasnt adequately rested then why didnt he call Fatigued ? Ladies and Gentleman, I challenge everyone on this board whether you are a pilot for a major or flying a Beech 19OOD to carry yourself and conduct yourself in the most professional manor. MANAGE and TAKE COMMAND of your flight decks as if your spouse and child were riding in the back of your jet. THIS is SERIOUS BUSINESS. The days are over of being anything less than professional and flying these airplanes in any way other than company approved and documented procedures up to and including sterile cockpit on the ground as well as in the air. COMMAND is absolute. Lets start flying that way. Be Safe!

that they took off after displaying an unacceptably low level of professionalism during the preflight and initial delay.

What evidence do you have to make this claim? If the parking brake is set, you are free to talk.

You can listen to the CVR alone and hear the lack of professionalism and command going on in that cockpit.

Again. What evidence do you have to make this claim?

If that guy was truly tired and wasnt adequately rested then why didnt he call Fatigued ?

A truly fatigued person (chronically tired, as opposed to someone who is just tired) is not aware of his situation and impairment. See: Fatigue 101

I challenge everyone on this board whether you are a pilot for a major or flying a Beech 19OOD to carry yourself and conduct yourself in the most professional manor. MANAGE and TAKE COMMAND of your flight decks as if your spouse and child were riding in the back of your jet.

Why? If my fat butt gets there safely, everyone else will show up safely right behind me. Lighten up.

THIS is SERIOUS BUSINESS

This is a JOB. Do it well.

The days are over of being anything less than professional and flying these airplanes in any way other than company approved and documented procedures

No, nothing has changed in 107 years. Fly the plane. When AA departed ORD and the engine departed the plane severing the hydraulics to the leading edge flaps, the F/O flew the "profile". They would have survived if they would have just lowered the nose and gained some speed. Sometimes you have to be creative. Sometimes the company procedures are wrong. See: Risky Business: "Sometimes you have to say 'What the F..."

up to and including sterile cockpit on the ground as well as in the air.

There is no evidence that they violated sterile cockpit procedures.

COMMAND is absolute.

The only absolute in life is that there are no absolutes.

Lets start flying that way.

NO

Be Safe!

YES!

 

[ohplease!]

The real problem here is not that they inadvertantly took off with the wrong configuaration, but more importantly that they took off after displaying an unacceptably low level of professionalism during the preflight and initial delay.. I dont want to cast stones as to what happened on the take off (I didn't see the FDR and I have only read the transcript of the CVR). However I will say this, why not use that taxi / delay time in a productive manner for the flight? i.e both pilots can be heads down and concentrating on the T/O brief and a/c configuaration and set up. You can listen to the CVR alone and hear the lack of professionalism and command going on in that cockpit. If that guy was truly tired and wasnt adequately rested then why didnt he call Fatigued ? Ladies and Gentleman, I challenge everyone on this board whether you are a pilot for a major or flying a Beech 19OOD to carry yourself and conduct yourself in the most professional manor. MANAGE and TAKE COMMAND of your flight decks as if your spouse and child were riding in the back of your jet. THIS is SERIOUS BUSINESS. The days are over of being anything less than professional and flying these airplanes in any way other than company approved and documented procedures up to and including sterile cockpit on the ground as well as in the air. COMMAND is absolute. Lets start flying that way. Be Safe!

spoken like a true chump with absolutely NO experience..Some times company approved and documented will bite you in the butt!....

 

[rigger]

Again you are using the mentality that it's safer to take it to the sky then to deal with it on the ground, that's what caused this accident. All he had to do was abort but instead he added flaps so they could get out of there and not miss the flow window. If you're on the takeoff roll and you notice that flaps aren't set, doesn't matter if they're 0 or 8, it's an automatic abort. However, if the CA had enough reflex to continue the roll and add flaps then he should have known to disregard flaps misconfig warning and continued. Again the take off phase is not a "set it and forget it" phase of flight, there are different segments which you need to pay attention to the airplane and the roll.

Amazing, no real T/O brief on the CVR, if they did it earlier how about at least a refresh of the high points as there turning onto the active....But they got nothing. Also the brief is 99.9% ANYTHING beore 80 abort 80-v1 RED Stuff.....but still no abort when red stuff came out. Also no abort call. I saw this time and time again in the box, they brief then don't do what they brief....Sucks for this capable crew, but again shows the importance of the brief and sterile......Every departure every day the rest of your career!!!

 

[LJ45]

just because they "could talk" with the parking brake set doesn't mean they should. You guys don't have enought time to talk at cruise or sitting around the terminal/crew rooms? Give me a break and do your F#%^& job like a professional.

 

[Bluestreak]

just because they "could talk" with the parking brake set doesn't mean they should. You guys don't have enought time to talk at cruise or sitting around the terminal/crew rooms? Give me a break and do your F#%^& job like a professional.

Wow ! Have you REALLY flown the Cessna 140,150 AND the 152 ? Mind-numbing incredible stuff ! I hope I can be like you someday.....

 

[LJ45]

Wow ! Have you REALLY flown the Cessna 140,150 AND the 152 ? Mind-numbing incredible stuff ! I hope I can be like you someday.....

I see you are a person of very deep thoughts! personal attack is all you got brother. see ya!

 

[Abernathy]

just because they "could talk" with the parking brake set doesn't mean they should. You guys don't have enought time to talk at cruise or sitting around the terminal/crew rooms? Give me a break and do your F#%^& job like a professional.

You must be a super pilot to pass that kind of judgment.

 

[LJ45]

You must be a super pilot to pass that kind of judgment.

Did I pass judgment on that crew, or was I making a general comment on the state of the last several accidents and their CRV transcripts? If you think that I did, well you must think those CVR transcripts are ok?

Once again, you are attacking the messenger with childish comments and not looking at the message that is being sent from all of these accident CVR transcripts.

 

[sunlitpath]

Don't abort after V1. Conversation while the parking brake is set is normal and harmless, unless you go off the end of the runway. Then, all the misinformed wieners will second guess all the things they know nothing about.

 

[Bluestreak]

Did I pass judgment on that crew, or was I making a general comment on the state of the last several accidents and their CRV transcripts? If you think that I did, well you must think those CVR transcripts are ok?

Once again, you are attacking the messenger with childish comments and not looking at the message that is being sent from all of these accident CVR transcripts.

No-we're attacking a holier-than-thou pompous tool.Hey,did you not have space for all the PA28 series,like the PA28-180 AND the PA28-181 ? Now go check your tire pressure and report back on freq.

 

[LJ45]

No-we're attacking a holier-than-thou pompous tool.Hey,did you not have space for all the PA28 series,like the PA28-180 AND the PA28-181 ? Now go check your tire pressure and report back on freq.

nope, I only put the ones I flew...Some of them 25 years ago. How about you? Why does that bother you, did you not fly some of these learning? Were you so good of a pilot that you went straight to that EMB170?

I am glad you can judge someone so easy....lets see what does pompous tool and holier-than-thou mean? and how did you figure that out without ever really having any clue about me. hmm...who is the real tool here.

you guys have fun over here! see ya!

 

[ultrarunner]

Jesus they don't even need to investigate this he decided to sit in the cockpit and just talk...

Yep! Incredible. He could have at the very least kept quiet, ran the appropriate checklist. I mean, the FDR would have hung him anyway...but yeah...to come right out and say that yeah, I just decided to make a config change at 80 knots or so going down the runway.

Man, stop at 80 and re-group.