CRM question - Captain/FO

[John_W_Thompson]

I'm putting together a Recurrent CRM discussion and want some input with regards FO's when they are PF's.

For captains:

How much latitude do you give an experienced FO when it comes to making certain decisions during their leg such as climb/descent speeds, picking an altitude, going direct somewhere, deciding which way to deviate around weather, when to configure, etc.? How often do you fly with an overconfident/overbearing FO? How do you deal with them - do you let them hang themselves, or do you tell them what to do?

For FO's: How often do you fly with overbearing captains? How do you deal with a captain you perceive as a micromanager? Ever find yourself clamming up when flying with someone you perceive as overbearing or micromanager?

Any situations or stories are greatly appreciated!

It really depends on the FO's experience and performance. I will let them have the whole operation if they can handle it. I cannot tolerate cockyness or any sort of chip on the shoulder. I always start out laid back, and continue until I cannot due to lack of performance by my FO. Same as a previous poster ... if I have to remind an FO that I am the PIC then it's probably going to be a bad trip. Dumbass won't even know why either.

 

[V1rowt8]

speed checks

How about this one. When you ask for the flaps, or gear, the other fella says "speed checks". I probably would not be asking for it if I wasn't within the limitation. The speed checks callout is no where in our FOM or CFM. It doesn't happen often but when it does it is from a micro manager type. I have not told any FO to stop saying it but I have thought about it.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Some of you guys seem to have a chip on your shoulder. He is the capt. and he alone signed the release and is the only pic. Imho one of the challanges of being a fo is adapting to each capts flying styles. As an fo I just tried to fly via sopa/smac (nwa lingo) and tailored my technique to the capts. When in doubt I flew like a grandma as to not make the capt uncomfortable. You get paid either way so I don't understand the angst here. I try to let the fo make all his/her decisions, however you can bet your ass if I see them approaching my discomfort stage I will make a suggestion and if not heeded relatively soon thereafter will make the decision. My brief includes that we don't want to get violated or killed and will always defer to the most conservative decsion whoever suggests it and we will not rush for anyone(company,atc, etc). Also in my brief I include that I buy all cocktails and if on probation I buy all meals, starbucks etc.

 

[navigatro]

How about this one. When you ask for the flaps, or gear, the other fella says "speed checks". I probably would not be asking for it if I wasn't within the limitation. The speed checks callout is no where in our FOM or CFM. It doesn't happen often but when it does it is from a micro manager type. I have not told any FO to stop saying it but I have thought about it.

I disagree with you on this one. It is a good verbal backup to prevent a costly mistake. There are lots of safety checks that pilots do, that are not in the FOM. I do not see this is a micro manager issue. I see it as a PNF with good safety and CRM skills that is trying to prevent an overspeed.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

As a 17 year FO, I’ve had my share of good, better, and best in the left seat with just a few bad apples. The worst are the micro managers that seem intent on proving to you just how smart they are and/or how much they know. They just love to point out every minor flaw or point out you’re two knots off your airspeed. After awhile it’s just, “OK, I get it, your God’s gift to aviation.”


I had one guy pull-off the pad at busy DFW before our first leg (thereby backing up ground traffic behind us) and then goes on to give me a full 10 minute brief on how to fly the plane (I already had 4000 hours in the Super 80) for our short leg down to IAH. He then proceeds to keep the speed up to about 250 until 7 miles out on final. I’m now the one asking now if he wanted any slats or flaps in order to drop him a heavy hint and he keeps telling me “he’s not ready yet.” We’re smoking up on somebody at about 4 miles out and I’m thinking to myself this is going to be interesting. After we’re about 1 ½ miles behind our traffic, ATC finally breaks off our “smoking final” and sends us around. All the while this professional Captain is cussing out ATC and saying what a bunch of Bozo’s those guys are. It proved to be a long trip. There are some guys that just don’t seem to get it.


The best are the ones that know and follow the rules and provide a comfortable and relax atmosphere both in the cockpit and cabin. The truly best are the ones that provide a few laughts along the way and pick up an occasional tab on the layover for their struggling FO’s.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[thunderworm]

how do you deal with a captian that has no business being in the left seat. they are only there because it was thier turn and the company really needed someone to fill the seat at the time. i am talking about someone who would barely be a good fo and he is making decisions that you are supposed to follow but you end up caoching him on the whole trip. if you were to listen to the cvr you would think the fo was the captian. don't assume that just because the guy to the right has more strips that he is competent. you would think that training and pc's would weed them out but if the company really needs them they will keep them.

 

[Little Bubba]

captian, thier, caoching, captian.

Nicely done...

 

[Captzaahlie]

Some of you guys seem to have a chip on your shoulder. He is the capt. and he alone signed the release and is the only pic. Imho one of the challanges of being a fo is adapting to each capts flying styles. As an fo I just tried to fly via sopa/smac (nwa lingo) and tailored my technique to the capts. When in doubt I flew like a grandma as to not make the capt uncomfortable. You get paid either way so I don't understand the angst here. I try to let the fo make all his/her decisions, however you can bet your ass if I see them approaching my discomfort stage I will make a suggestion and if not heeded relatively soon thereafter will make the decision. My brief includes that we don't want to get violated or killed and will always defer to the most conservative decsion whoever suggests it and we will not rush for anyone(company,atc, etc). Also in my brief I include that I buy all cocktails and if on probation I buy all meals, starbucks etc.

I'm ready to apply at NWA now just to throw the gear for you! It'd be nice if all Capt's had your attitude. I was almost as generous in and out of the cockpit when I was in the left seat. You get a lot more quality work out of an FO if you are not throwing a "I am the Capt therefore I am God" complex on them. The guys that make the whole trip feel like a mission to Mars by over complicating things are the worst....

 

[Captzaahlie]

how do you deal with a captain that has no business being in the left seat. they are only there because it was their turn and the company really needed someone to fill the seat at the time. i am talking about someone who would barely be a good fo and he is making decisions that you are supposed to follow but you end up coaching him on the whole trip. if you were to listen to the cvr you would think the fo was the captain. don't assume that just because the guy to the right has more strips that he is competent. you would think that training and pc's would weed them out but if the company really needs them they will keep them.

Good question, I guess you help him not try to kill anyone while you fly with him,..... That's an FO's job right?
Give Liil Bubba credit on his proof reading abilities, he worked his way into the airlines from a whorehouse!
I fixed the other's typo's with my spell checker.... just trying to be a good FO!

 

[Captzaahlie]

Brand new F/O...we're high and fast and the captain finally said.."Might I recommend the Dunlops?"....

It works almost as well as pushing up those propeller thingiezs in what i used to fly....