CRM question - Captain/FO

[Stifler's Mom]

The perfect thread for FI. Entertaining and educational all at once.

 

[DrewBlows]

And by the way ... from my way of thinking (s)he is not your FO ... they are the company's FO. I don't know why this bugs me like it does but it smacks of arrogance.

This bothers me to but I can't think of a better way of explaining to my girlfriend who I'm going to the bar with. When I was an FO I always referred to "my Captain," is that arrogant?

 

[ERfly]

Back when I was a 767 F/O in the mid-nineties I flew with a great guy who had a very quick brief.

He said with a smirk on his face: "Here's the line down the middle of the cockpit, everything on this side is mine. Everything on that side is mine too!"

The better one I got was..."Close your eyes. Everything you see is yours. Open your eyes. Everything you see is mine. Don't touch my s**t." Unfortunately, I flew with a few guys at my last carrier that were serious with that brief.

 

[GuppyWN]

The better one I got was..."Close your eyes. Everything you see is yours. Open your eyes. Everything you see is mine. Don't touch my s**t." Unfortunately, I flew with a few guys at my last carrier that were serious with that brief.

That's pretty dang funny. Should have just sat there when he called gear up. I'm sure the message would have been received.

Gup

 

[ERfly]

That's pretty dang funny. Should have just sat there when he called gear up. I'm sure the message would have been received.

Gup

Yep received all the way to the CPs office, who fixed everything by telling you, "I have a stack of resumes on my desk. If you don't like it here, there's the door."

 

[PSL]

This bothers me to but I can't think of a better way of explaining to my girlfriend who I'm going to the bar with. When I was an FO I always referred to "my Captain," is that arrogant?

If that works for you and your girlfriend great ...

You might be correct that I am being a bit sensitive, but I don't think of the FOs as mine ...

They are part of the THE crew, THE airline, and hopefully part of THE solution rather than a problem.

While it might be culturally accepted to refer to a spouse as (in my case), 'My wife', I tend to look at aviation from a macro viewpoint. I am very old school when it comes to practicing the golden rule mostly due to my upbringing and some remarkable captains I flew with when I was a pup.

It's been my experience people who are XOs or SICs act empowered when they don't feel they are the posession of another. I understand there is only one person who signs the release but this fact should not define the crew concept; but simply be a legal requirement of it.

Case in point ... I asked the FO to brief the FAs yesterday morning while I did the walk around (in the rain no-less). I am confident enough in my own skin not to need to be reminded anyone in the crew is mine ! Try this posessive tact in Dallas and some senior FA will hand you your '6'.

 

[Dan Roman]

It's my feeling that it is the Captains job to set the tone in the cockpit that makes the rest of the crew feel comfortable. That is part of his job just as much as being able to fly the airplane correctly. It is the F/O's job to work with the Captain. For their to be a breakdown of good CRM, both parties have to be "wrong" In which case it is the Captains responsabilty to rise above a personality conflict.
I can honestly say I have never had a cross word with an F/O in my career. My basic belief is any mistake he makes, I have or will make the same one at some point myself, so to stress about it is pretty hypocritical. We are up there as a team to work together, mistakes happen, that's why there are two of us, hopefully we won't both make the same mistake at the same time.
Finally, it appears to me that the most demanding Captains are often among the weakest. The worst are the ones that micro manage every move the F/O makes. Often these guys have all the manuals very well memorized and think they are very "professional" however, while they are lecturing the F/O about being 3 knots off or something they are missing an important radio call or creating an uncomfortable environment in the cockpit that doesn't bring out the best in his crew.

 

[DrewBlows]

If that works for you and your girlfriend great ...

You might be correct that I am being a bit sensitive, but I don't think of the FOs as mine ...

They are part of the THE crew, THE airline, and hopefully part of THE solution rather than a problem.

While it might be culturally accepted to refer to a spouse as (in my case), 'My wife', I tend to look at aviation from a macro viewpoint. I am very old school when it comes to practicing the golden rule mostly due to my upbringing and some remarkable captains I flew with when I was a pup.

It's been my experience people who are XOs or SICs act empowered when they don't feel they are the posession of another. I understand there is only one person who signs the release but this fact should not define the crew concept; but simply be a legal requirement of it.

Case in point ... I asked the FO to brief the FAs yesterday morning while I did the walk around (in the rain no-less). I am confident enough in my own skin not to need to be reminded anyone in the crew is mine ! Try this posessive tact in Dallas and some senior FA will hand you your '6'.

I don't disagree with anything you say, but you haven't offered a better way of explaining your relationship with "the company's FO" to other people. If I tell my girlfriend I'm going to dinner with "the company's First Officer" she's going to wonder what the heck I'm talking about. At the same time if I tell her I'm going to dinner with "John," she's going to wonder what who John is. I'm only using this as an example but there are many situations where the "my" seems to be the most appropriate use.

Again, when I was an FO I didn't think twice about calling "the company's captain," "my captain," though I often wished there was a better way to describe flight attendants (I tend to use "the" or "our" depending on the situation). Only since I've upgraded have I struggled with "my" when describing "the company's" crew. If you have a better suggestion please enlighten me.

 

[pipe]

I don't disagree with anything you say, but you haven't offered a better way of explaining your relationship with "the company's FO" to other people. If I tell my girlfriend I'm going to dinner with "the company's First Officer" she's going to wonder what the heck I'm talking about. At the same time if I tell her I'm going to dinner with "John," she's going to wonder what who John is. I'm only using this as an example but there are many situations where the "my" seems to be the most appropriate use.

Again, when I was an FO I didn't think twice about calling "the company's captain," "my captain," though I often wished there was a better way to describe flight attendants (I tend to use "the" or "our" depending on the situation). Only since I've upgraded have I struggled with "my" when describing "the company's" crew. If you have a better suggestion please enlighten me.

Yeah -- how about this: "I'm going to dinner with the Captain" or, "I'm going to dinner with the FO".

Wow, that was hard.

PIPE

 

[Varig]

You guys should come and teach CRM in my company. Unfortunately I can count in one hand the good captains I have flown with the past 3 years. Most have no CRM or knowledge to be in the left seat and yet they treat us like $hit It goes with the culture of the country also. This is my first flying job that I don't like and actually hate going to work. It's sad but it's the truth down here.

 

[Captzaahlie]

I know what you guys are saying BUT if the captain thinks you need the gear......... you need the gear. I'd rather push you to drop the gear and configure 200 feet early than go around and cost the company $2,000 in fuel.

I don't do the "long reach" but I do verbalize when I think you're pushing it too deep.

Call me an overbearing butthole but I feel like I'm managing the flight deck by clearly telling you what I'm thinking and saving the company money.

Gup

Being a little new on the 73......

If the Capt. thinks you need the gear, you needed the gear a few seconds ago.....

It's one of the only anchors you got on this bird.

Sure there are nice ways of suggesting it and hopefully the more experienced guy in the left seat is going to be professional about it.... if not get over it already. It's not really playtime when you are trying to slow better than 100k pounds of sheet metal down.

 

[denny]

12345

 

[densoo]

My peeve is captain's who change radio frequencies on the ground when they're the only one with steering control, and in the air when they're flying without automation. What the hey? I got little enough to do. Ya got to do the radios, too! Think maybe ya oughtta watch where you're taxiing?

Captain gets to taxi, fly a leg, taxi; then taxi, watch FO fly a leg, then taxi. The FO gets to touch the machine 1/6th of the time. Could you just leave the radio alone and fly/taxi the plane?

 

[WSurf]

My peeve is captain's who change radio frequencies on the ground when they're the only one with steering control, and in the air when they're flying without automation. What the hey? I got little enough to do. Ya got to do the radios, too! Think maybe ya oughtta watch where you're taxiing?

Captain gets to taxi, fly a leg, taxi; then taxi, watch FO fly a leg, then taxi. The FO gets to touch the machine 1/6th of the time. Could you just leave the radio alone?

That never bothered me. Hell, if he wants to do all the work then go for it. You know what, if he wants to fly every leg he can do that too.

 

[SuperFLUF]

"my" FO or "the" FO doesn't bother me.

Co-pilot bothers me for some reason though. Its kinda like you're not a "real" pilot yet. You're a "co" pilot.

I flew with one captain who referred to me as the "co-captain' on the PA. A little over the top, but he was good to his FO's.

 

[Morning Wood]

I know what you guys are saying BUT if the captain thinks you need the gear......... you need the gear. I'd rather push you to drop the gear and configure 200 feet early than go around and cost the company $2,000 in fuel.

I don't do the "long reach" but I do verbalize when I think you're pushing it too deep.

Call me an overbearing butthole but I feel like I'm managing the flight deck by clearly telling you what I'm thinking and saving the company money.

Gup

I actually saw that in action in one of your jumpseats once going to ONT from LAS. Brand new F/O...we're high and fast and the captain finally said.."Might I recommend the Dunlops?"....

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Back when I was a 767 F/O in the mid-nineties I flew with a great guy who had a very quick brief.

He said with a smirk on his face: "Here's the line down the middle of the cockpit, everything on this side is mine. Everything on that side is mine too!"

OK, close your eyes. Everything you see is yours, everything else is mine.

 

[Flyer1015]

Don't be the captain that grabs the gear handle and says, "are you ready for the gear"?

That's my biggest pet peeve. I hate it when a Captain does that. It's ok, I'm still 9 miles out, I'll call for the gear as we get a little closer. Putting your hand on the gear lever and leaving it that way is just annoying. Same goes for the flaps. It's like, I know we have to put flaps down, you don't need to remind me. I'm still 20 miles from the airport. Ugh.

The better one I got was..."Close your eyes. Everything you see is yours. Open your eyes. Everything you see is mine. Don't touch my s**t." Unfortunately, I flew with a few guys at my last carrier that were serious with that brief.

My worse story is when I told a Captain my name, he asked me to say it again, because I think he couldn't pronounce it. I said it again. He still didn't get it. Instead, he goes, "You see this? [he pointed to his fourth stripe]... that means I can call you whatever the hell I want!"

Yeah, that was meeting for our very first leg together. Talk about a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG trip.

 

[PCL_128]

I know what you guys are saying BUT if the captain thinks you need the gear......... you need the gear.

Bull. I would agree if the copilot is new in the airplane, but after he's been flying it for a while, he knows how to handle the plane. He doesn't need the Captain prompting him on everything. Most of the guys who do this prompting nonsense are the guys who slow to 170 knots 20 nm out and expect you to do the same. Sorry, but I have no intention of making the controller's day suck that bad.

 

[PCL_128]

That's my biggest pet peeve. I hate it when a Captain does that. It's ok, I'm still 9 miles out, I'll call for the gear as we get a little closer. Putting your hand on the gear lever and leaving it that way is just annoying. Same goes for the flaps. It's like, I know we have to put flaps down, you don't need to remind me. I'm still 20 miles from the airport. Ugh.

The suggestion from somebody else above is the best one on this: just sit there and don't say anything. Make them sit there with their hand on the gear handle looking like a dumbass. After a few legs they'll get the point.

My worse story is when I told a Captain my name, he asked me to say it again, because I think he couldn't pronounce it. I said it again. He still didn't get it. Instead, he goes, "You see this? [he pointed to his fourth stripe]... that means I can call you whatever the hell I want!"

Yeah, that was meeting for our very first leg together. Talk about a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG trip.

Oh, you've gotta PM me who that was!