CRM question - Captain/FO

[Flashbang]

I'm putting together a Recurrent CRM discussion and want some input with regards FO's when they are PF's.

For captains:

How much latitude do you give an experienced FO when it comes to making certain decisions during their leg such as climb/descent speeds, picking an altitude, going direct somewhere, deciding which way to deviate around weather, when to configure, etc.? How often do you fly with an overconfident/overbearing FO? How do you deal with them - do you let them hang themselves, or do you tell them what to do?

For FO's: How often do you fly with overbearing captains? How do you deal with a captain you perceive as a micromanager? Ever find yourself clamming up when flying with someone you perceive as overbearing or micromanager?

Any situations or stories are greatly appreciated!

 

[Regional4life]

I'm putting together a Recurrent CRM discussion and want some input with regards FO's when they are PF's.

For captains:

How much latitude do you give an experienced FO when it comes to making certain decisions during their leg such as climb/descent speeds, picking an altitude, going direct somewhere, deciding which way to deviate around weather, when to configure, etc.? How often do you fly with an overconfident/overbearing FO? How do you deal with them - do you let them hang themselves, or do you tell them what to do?

For FO's: How often do you fly with overbearing captains? How do you deal with a captain you perceive as a micromanager? Ever find yourself clamming up when flying with someone you perceive as overbearing or micromanager?

Any situations or stories are greatly appreciated!

Straight out of our FOM.

"When the FO is acting as PF, the Captain shall perform the PNF duties and not countermand the FO's decisions, unless he considers that flight safety, regulations, or SOP's are being compromised".

 

[ERfly]

I don't fly for a major, but I am a Captain a large regional.

When it's my FOs leg, I ask them about directs, altitude changes, which way to go with the weather, even whether or not to turn the seat belt sign off. I want them to be thinking like Captains and be ready for when they eventually get that seat.

When it's my leg, I ask them what they think about weather deviations and other decisions.

I always remember the guys that asked my input on stuff. Unfortunately, in my time as an FO, it happened rarely. I hated getting micromanaged and therefore swore I would never do it to my FOs.

Captains are supposed to mentor their FOs. I'm helping shape a future Captain. I'd prefer it if they don't fly around with their heads up their butts for the few years they're in the right seat. You're a crew for God's sake. Work like one!

As far as overbearing FOs, I've only had a few, thank God. When the situation came up, I calmly told them my position and that they need to watch themselves. I didn't yell or get upset. I just warned them that one day they will most likely fly with someone that would rip them up one side and down the other for actions like that. I treat like a learning experience. Hopefully they took my words to heart.

 

[pipe]

Straight out of our FOM.

"When the FO is acting as PF, the Captain shall perform the PNF duties and not countermand the FO's decisions, unless he considers that flight safety, regulations, or SOP's are being compromised".

That is a damn fine FOM. My company could use a copy.

PIPE

 

[Freight Dog]

I recently flew with a captain who seems to subscribe to the practice that the left seat makes all operational calls regardless of who's flying. Interestingly enough, this captain was telling me how he recently flew with an FO who wouldn't make any decisions which sounded kind of strange considering that FO's background (regional captain and sim instructor). After flying with this captain, I know why the FO wouldn't "make any decisions." He'd get overriden, so he figures why not make the stud captain make all calls and save himself some dignity.

When I was a commuter captain, I'd always let my FO's make all operational decisions even if I disagreed with them, as long as they weren't safety-of-flight or legality issues, but I'd give them plenty of rope to hang themselves with because that's how they'll learn and be effective down the road.

 

[800Dog]

I'm putting together a Recurrent CRM discussion and want some input with regards FO's when they are PF's.

For captains:

How much latitude do you give an experienced FO when it comes to making certain decisions during their leg such as climb/descent speeds, picking an altitude, going direct somewhere, deciding which way to deviate around weather, when to configure, etc.? How often do you fly with an overconfident/overbearing FO? How do you deal with them - do you let them hang themselves, or do you tell them what to do?

For FO's: How often do you fly with overbearing captains? How do you deal with a captain you perceive as a micromanager? Ever find yourself clamming up when flying with someone you perceive as overbearing or micromanager?

Any situations or stories are greatly appreciated!

Please move this to the regional board!

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

[insert rolly-eyes]

Please move this to the regional board!

Yeah! We all no CRM discussions have no place on the Majors board!

 

[vetrider]

Micro managing is for insecure sissies.

 

[PSL]

Here's my brief ...

When it is your leg you make ALL the operational decisions ... If I feel compelled to assert myself there will be no doubt in your mind why we are going in a different direction.

In a total of 17 years in the left seat I have had to do this exactly two times ... (1) one for braking action where I ASKED him to use a higher setting due to local knowledge of the 'braking action reports' and (2) Strongly advised not to shoot a straight in (8kt TW) to a runway I believed was still wet. We went to the far end of the field and shot an ILS ... yes I burned a few extra pounds of fuel.


THAT IS IT !

And by the way ... from my way of thinking (s)he is not your FO ... they are the company's FO. I don't know why this bugs me like it does but it smacks of arrogance.

 

[pianoman]

And by the way ... from my way of thinking (s)he is not your FO ... they are the company's FO. I don't know why this bugs me like it does but it smacks of arrogance.

You know, that's always bugged me too.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Don't be the captain that grabs the gear handle and says, "are you ready for the gear"?

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

I'd give them plenty of rope to hang themselves with because that's how they'll learn and be effective down the road.

True....

 

[paulsalem]

Here's my brief ...

When it is your leg you make ALL the operational decisions ... If I feel compelled to assert myself there will be no doubt in your mind why we are going in a different direction.

In a total of 17 years in the left seat I have had to do this exactly two times ... (1) one for braking action where I ASKED him to use a higher setting due to local knowledge of the 'braking action reports' and (2) Strongly advised not to shoot a straight in (8kt TW) to a runway I believed was still wet. We went to the far end of the field and shot an ILS ... yes I burned a few extra pounds of fuel.


THAT IS IT !

And by the way ... from my way of thinking (s)he is not your FO ... they are the company's FO. I don't know why this bugs me like it does but it smacks of arrogance.

I'm a brand new CA and that's what I try to do. But when I get downgraded can I fly with you?

 

[glasspilot1]

Don't be the captain that grabs the gear handle and says, "are you ready for the gear"?

Just say "No"; and when he puts his hand back in his lap say: "Gear Down"!

 

[glasspilot1]

Back when I was a 767 F/O in the mid-nineties I flew with a great guy who had a very quick brief.

He said with a smirk on his face: "Here's the line down the middle of the cockpit, everything on this side is mine. Everything on that side is mine too!"

 

[WSurf]

Just say "No"; and when he puts his hand back in his lap say: "Gear Down"!

Better just not say anything and see just how long he'll leave his hand on the gear. I used to love the look of frustration while he holds it waiting for the gear down command.

 

[GuppyWN]

I know what you guys are saying BUT if the captain thinks you need the gear......... you need the gear. I'd rather push you to drop the gear and configure 200 feet early than go around and cost the company $2,000 in fuel.

I don't do the "long reach" but I do verbalize when I think you're pushing it too deep.

Call me an overbearing butthole but I feel like I'm managing the flight deck by clearly telling you what I'm thinking and saving the company money.

Gup

 

[WSurf]

I know what you guys are saying BUT if the captain thinks you need the gear......... you need the gear. I'd rather push you to drop the gear and configure 200 feet early than go around and cost the company $2,000 in fuel.

I don't do the "long reach" but I do verbalize when I think you're pushing it too deep.

Call me an overbearing butthole but I feel like I'm managing the flight deck by clearly telling you what I'm thinking and saving the company money.

Gup

I don't think anyone is arguing that. We all know what the POH and procedures are and when the plane must be in the landing config, but some of these folks that we are talking about want the gear out so early on the approach just because it gives them a chance to tell you what to do and being a prick about it grabbing the handle.

Like you said, "Maybe a simple "you ready for the gear" without the hand on the Handle would seem a tad better."

 

[PurpleInMEM]

This is why I like it when the Captain operates the first leg. However he/she operates, that's how I'll operate...right, wrong or somewhere in the middle. Go along to get along.

Any discussion about me doing something that he/she doesn't like or doesn't want is just wasted breath. Drop the gear early, go around a cell to the left instead of the right, fly slow, fly fast...whatever. The captain signed for it and gets compensated to make the decisions. I'm just there to keep the sun off the engineer. :laugh:

 

[WSurf]

This is why I like it when the Captain operates the first leg. However he/she operates, that's how I'll operate...right, wrong or somewhere in the middle. Go along to get along.

Any discussion about me doing something that he/she doesn't like or doesn't want is just wasted breath. Drop the gear early, go around a cell to the left instead of the right, fly slow, fly fast...whatever. The captain signed for it and gets compensated to make the decisions. I'm just there to keep the sun off the engineer. :laugh:

I am sure we all try to do that and your right it does make the trip easier. But we all know and remember about 1 or 2 Captains in our careers that we would have loved to plant a foot in their a$$.

Even though he signed for it doesn't allow you to let him drive you into the ground does it? If your gonna use the right, wrong in the middle then your setting yourself up.

First Time you screw up and the FAA gets in on it, I am sure they are gonna like the "I was flying Kinda in the Middle because thats how my Captain Likes it".. LOL

 

[Stifler's Mom]

The perfect thread for FI. Entertaining and educational all at once.

 

[DrewBlows]

And by the way ... from my way of thinking (s)he is not your FO ... they are the company's FO. I don't know why this bugs me like it does but it smacks of arrogance.

This bothers me to but I can't think of a better way of explaining to my girlfriend who I'm going to the bar with. When I was an FO I always referred to "my Captain," is that arrogant?

 

[ERfly]

Back when I was a 767 F/O in the mid-nineties I flew with a great guy who had a very quick brief.

He said with a smirk on his face: "Here's the line down the middle of the cockpit, everything on this side is mine. Everything on that side is mine too!"

The better one I got was..."Close your eyes. Everything you see is yours. Open your eyes. Everything you see is mine. Don't touch my s**t." Unfortunately, I flew with a few guys at my last carrier that were serious with that brief.

 

[GuppyWN]

The better one I got was..."Close your eyes. Everything you see is yours. Open your eyes. Everything you see is mine. Don't touch my s**t." Unfortunately, I flew with a few guys at my last carrier that were serious with that brief.

That's pretty dang funny. Should have just sat there when he called gear up. I'm sure the message would have been received.

Gup

 

[ERfly]

That's pretty dang funny. Should have just sat there when he called gear up. I'm sure the message would have been received.

Gup

Yep received all the way to the CPs office, who fixed everything by telling you, "I have a stack of resumes on my desk. If you don't like it here, there's the door."

 

[PSL]

This bothers me to but I can't think of a better way of explaining to my girlfriend who I'm going to the bar with. When I was an FO I always referred to "my Captain," is that arrogant?

If that works for you and your girlfriend great ...

You might be correct that I am being a bit sensitive, but I don't think of the FOs as mine ...

They are part of the THE crew, THE airline, and hopefully part of THE solution rather than a problem.

While it might be culturally accepted to refer to a spouse as (in my case), 'My wife', I tend to look at aviation from a macro viewpoint. I am very old school when it comes to practicing the golden rule mostly due to my upbringing and some remarkable captains I flew with when I was a pup.

It's been my experience people who are XOs or SICs act empowered when they don't feel they are the posession of another. I understand there is only one person who signs the release but this fact should not define the crew concept; but simply be a legal requirement of it.

Case in point ... I asked the FO to brief the FAs yesterday morning while I did the walk around (in the rain no-less). I am confident enough in my own skin not to need to be reminded anyone in the crew is mine ! Try this posessive tact in Dallas and some senior FA will hand you your '6'.

 

[Dan Roman]

It's my feeling that it is the Captains job to set the tone in the cockpit that makes the rest of the crew feel comfortable. That is part of his job just as much as being able to fly the airplane correctly. It is the F/O's job to work with the Captain. For their to be a breakdown of good CRM, both parties have to be "wrong" In which case it is the Captains responsabilty to rise above a personality conflict.
I can honestly say I have never had a cross word with an F/O in my career. My basic belief is any mistake he makes, I have or will make the same one at some point myself, so to stress about it is pretty hypocritical. We are up there as a team to work together, mistakes happen, that's why there are two of us, hopefully we won't both make the same mistake at the same time.
Finally, it appears to me that the most demanding Captains are often among the weakest. The worst are the ones that micro manage every move the F/O makes. Often these guys have all the manuals very well memorized and think they are very "professional" however, while they are lecturing the F/O about being 3 knots off or something they are missing an important radio call or creating an uncomfortable environment in the cockpit that doesn't bring out the best in his crew.

 

[DrewBlows]

If that works for you and your girlfriend great ...

You might be correct that I am being a bit sensitive, but I don't think of the FOs as mine ...

They are part of the THE crew, THE airline, and hopefully part of THE solution rather than a problem.

While it might be culturally accepted to refer to a spouse as (in my case), 'My wife', I tend to look at aviation from a macro viewpoint. I am very old school when it comes to practicing the golden rule mostly due to my upbringing and some remarkable captains I flew with when I was a pup.

It's been my experience people who are XOs or SICs act empowered when they don't feel they are the posession of another. I understand there is only one person who signs the release but this fact should not define the crew concept; but simply be a legal requirement of it.

Case in point ... I asked the FO to brief the FAs yesterday morning while I did the walk around (in the rain no-less). I am confident enough in my own skin not to need to be reminded anyone in the crew is mine ! Try this posessive tact in Dallas and some senior FA will hand you your '6'.

I don't disagree with anything you say, but you haven't offered a better way of explaining your relationship with "the company's FO" to other people. If I tell my girlfriend I'm going to dinner with "the company's First Officer" she's going to wonder what the heck I'm talking about. At the same time if I tell her I'm going to dinner with "John," she's going to wonder what who John is. I'm only using this as an example but there are many situations where the "my" seems to be the most appropriate use.

Again, when I was an FO I didn't think twice about calling "the company's captain," "my captain," though I often wished there was a better way to describe flight attendants (I tend to use "the" or "our" depending on the situation). Only since I've upgraded have I struggled with "my" when describing "the company's" crew. If you have a better suggestion please enlighten me.

 

[pipe]

I don't disagree with anything you say, but you haven't offered a better way of explaining your relationship with "the company's FO" to other people. If I tell my girlfriend I'm going to dinner with "the company's First Officer" she's going to wonder what the heck I'm talking about. At the same time if I tell her I'm going to dinner with "John," she's going to wonder what who John is. I'm only using this as an example but there are many situations where the "my" seems to be the most appropriate use.

Again, when I was an FO I didn't think twice about calling "the company's captain," "my captain," though I often wished there was a better way to describe flight attendants (I tend to use "the" or "our" depending on the situation). Only since I've upgraded have I struggled with "my" when describing "the company's" crew. If you have a better suggestion please enlighten me.

Yeah -- how about this: "I'm going to dinner with the Captain" or, "I'm going to dinner with the FO".

Wow, that was hard.

PIPE

 

[Varig]

You guys should come and teach CRM in my company. Unfortunately I can count in one hand the good captains I have flown with the past 3 years. Most have no CRM or knowledge to be in the left seat and yet they treat us like $hit It goes with the culture of the country also. This is my first flying job that I don't like and actually hate going to work. It's sad but it's the truth down here.