CRM question - Captain/FO

[John_W_Thompson]

I'm putting together a Recurrent CRM discussion and want some input with regards FO's when they are PF's.

For captains:

How much latitude do you give an experienced FO when it comes to making certain decisions during their leg such as climb/descent speeds, picking an altitude, going direct somewhere, deciding which way to deviate around weather, when to configure, etc.? How often do you fly with an overconfident/overbearing FO? How do you deal with them - do you let them hang themselves, or do you tell them what to do?

For FO's: How often do you fly with overbearing captains? How do you deal with a captain you perceive as a micromanager? Ever find yourself clamming up when flying with someone you perceive as overbearing or micromanager?

Any situations or stories are greatly appreciated!

It really depends on the FO's experience and performance. I will let them have the whole operation if they can handle it. I cannot tolerate cockyness or any sort of chip on the shoulder. I always start out laid back, and continue until I cannot due to lack of performance by my FO. Same as a previous poster ... if I have to remind an FO that I am the PIC then it's probably going to be a bad trip. Dumbass won't even know why either.

 

[V1rowt8]

speed checks

How about this one. When you ask for the flaps, or gear, the other fella says "speed checks". I probably would not be asking for it if I wasn't within the limitation. The speed checks callout is no where in our FOM or CFM. It doesn't happen often but when it does it is from a micro manager type. I have not told any FO to stop saying it but I have thought about it.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Some of you guys seem to have a chip on your shoulder. He is the capt. and he alone signed the release and is the only pic. Imho one of the challanges of being a fo is adapting to each capts flying styles. As an fo I just tried to fly via sopa/smac (nwa lingo) and tailored my technique to the capts. When in doubt I flew like a grandma as to not make the capt uncomfortable. You get paid either way so I don't understand the angst here. I try to let the fo make all his/her decisions, however you can bet your ass if I see them approaching my discomfort stage I will make a suggestion and if not heeded relatively soon thereafter will make the decision. My brief includes that we don't want to get violated or killed and will always defer to the most conservative decsion whoever suggests it and we will not rush for anyone(company,atc, etc). Also in my brief I include that I buy all cocktails and if on probation I buy all meals, starbucks etc.

 

[navigatro]

How about this one. When you ask for the flaps, or gear, the other fella says "speed checks". I probably would not be asking for it if I wasn't within the limitation. The speed checks callout is no where in our FOM or CFM. It doesn't happen often but when it does it is from a micro manager type. I have not told any FO to stop saying it but I have thought about it.

I disagree with you on this one. It is a good verbal backup to prevent a costly mistake. There are lots of safety checks that pilots do, that are not in the FOM. I do not see this is a micro manager issue. I see it as a PNF with good safety and CRM skills that is trying to prevent an overspeed.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

As a 17 year FO, I’ve had my share of good, better, and best in the left seat with just a few bad apples. The worst are the micro managers that seem intent on proving to you just how smart they are and/or how much they know. They just love to point out every minor flaw or point out you’re two knots off your airspeed. After awhile it’s just, “OK, I get it, your God’s gift to aviation.”


I had one guy pull-off the pad at busy DFW before our first leg (thereby backing up ground traffic behind us) and then goes on to give me a full 10 minute brief on how to fly the plane (I already had 4000 hours in the Super 80) for our short leg down to IAH. He then proceeds to keep the speed up to about 250 until 7 miles out on final. I’m now the one asking now if he wanted any slats or flaps in order to drop him a heavy hint and he keeps telling me “he’s not ready yet.” We’re smoking up on somebody at about 4 miles out and I’m thinking to myself this is going to be interesting. After we’re about 1 ½ miles behind our traffic, ATC finally breaks off our “smoking final” and sends us around. All the while this professional Captain is cussing out ATC and saying what a bunch of Bozo’s those guys are. It proved to be a long trip. There are some guys that just don’t seem to get it.


The best are the ones that know and follow the rules and provide a comfortable and relax atmosphere both in the cockpit and cabin. The truly best are the ones that provide a few laughts along the way and pick up an occasional tab on the layover for their struggling FO’s.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[thunderworm]

how do you deal with a captian that has no business being in the left seat. they are only there because it was thier turn and the company really needed someone to fill the seat at the time. i am talking about someone who would barely be a good fo and he is making decisions that you are supposed to follow but you end up caoching him on the whole trip. if you were to listen to the cvr you would think the fo was the captian. don't assume that just because the guy to the right has more strips that he is competent. you would think that training and pc's would weed them out but if the company really needs them they will keep them.

 

[Little Bubba]

captian, thier, caoching, captian.

Nicely done...

 

[Captzaahlie]

Some of you guys seem to have a chip on your shoulder. He is the capt. and he alone signed the release and is the only pic. Imho one of the challanges of being a fo is adapting to each capts flying styles. As an fo I just tried to fly via sopa/smac (nwa lingo) and tailored my technique to the capts. When in doubt I flew like a grandma as to not make the capt uncomfortable. You get paid either way so I don't understand the angst here. I try to let the fo make all his/her decisions, however you can bet your ass if I see them approaching my discomfort stage I will make a suggestion and if not heeded relatively soon thereafter will make the decision. My brief includes that we don't want to get violated or killed and will always defer to the most conservative decsion whoever suggests it and we will not rush for anyone(company,atc, etc). Also in my brief I include that I buy all cocktails and if on probation I buy all meals, starbucks etc.

I'm ready to apply at NWA now just to throw the gear for you! It'd be nice if all Capt's had your attitude. I was almost as generous in and out of the cockpit when I was in the left seat. You get a lot more quality work out of an FO if you are not throwing a "I am the Capt therefore I am God" complex on them. The guys that make the whole trip feel like a mission to Mars by over complicating things are the worst....

 

[Captzaahlie]

how do you deal with a captain that has no business being in the left seat. they are only there because it was their turn and the company really needed someone to fill the seat at the time. i am talking about someone who would barely be a good fo and he is making decisions that you are supposed to follow but you end up coaching him on the whole trip. if you were to listen to the cvr you would think the fo was the captain. don't assume that just because the guy to the right has more strips that he is competent. you would think that training and pc's would weed them out but if the company really needs them they will keep them.

Good question, I guess you help him not try to kill anyone while you fly with him,..... That's an FO's job right?
Give Liil Bubba credit on his proof reading abilities, he worked his way into the airlines from a whorehouse!
I fixed the other's typo's with my spell checker.... just trying to be a good FO!

 

[Captzaahlie]

Brand new F/O...we're high and fast and the captain finally said.."Might I recommend the Dunlops?"....

It works almost as well as pushing up those propeller thingiezs in what i used to fly....

 

[Captzaahlie]

It really depends on the FO's experience and performance. I will let them have the whole operation if they can handle it. I cannot tolerate cockiness or any sort of chip on the shoulder. I always start out laid back, and continue until I cannot due to lack of performance by my FO. Same as a previous poster ... if I have to remind an FO that I am the PIC then it's probably going to be a bad trip. Dumbass won't even know why either.

I think thats the best attitude to have, I always operated the same way from the left seat and had to pull rank maybe twice in 14 years.

 

[Flashbang]

Can someone tell me more about their encounter with either a micromanaging captain or overbearing FO and how did you handle it? If you were a captain, how did you approach the FO's being overbearing and if you were an FO, how did you deal with a micromanaging captain?

What I'm getting at is how do you deal with those situations individually - do you clam up, do you wait until you're on the ground and then talk, do you talk over a beer, how do you address the problem?

 

[McNugget]

That's my biggest pet peeve. I hate it when a Captain does that. It's ok, I'm still 9 miles out, I'll call for the gear as we get a little closer. Putting your hand on the gear lever and leaving it that way is just annoying. Same goes for the flaps. It's like, I know we have to put flaps down, you don't need to remind me. I'm still 20 miles from the airport. Ugh.



My worse story is when I told a Captain my name, he asked me to say it again, because I think he couldn't pronounce it. I said it again. He still didn't get it. Instead, he goes, "You see this? [he pointed to his fourth stripe]... that means I can call you whatever the hell I want!"

Yeah, that was meeting for our very first leg together. Talk about a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG trip.

did u wipe the sand out of your vah jay jay?

gear up shut up

 

[thunderworm]

i defenitly wasn't an english major and my spelling is hurendus but as long as you get the message. i agree it is my job to help the flight continue safely but what about the new FO that dosen't know any better and just assumes the captian is right and lets the flight get out of control.

 

[LIGHTDRIVER]

I am an F/O at a regional. If the captain trys to take charge, I just tell him i'm going to twist him into a pretzel when we get on the ground. I make sure i'm the one making the decisions. Just because this Geek sitting next to me got here first doesn't mean I have to listen to him. One time I had to karate chop some clown right in the chops because he told me I was to high. I said oh ya. Crack right across the chops. Before the flight was over he was calling me Sir. I know this type of CRM is unorthodox but it works!!!!

 

[glasspilot1]

My brief includes that we don't want to get violated or killed

That reminds me of another story!

I flew with a Capt (Capt Griffith) once who gave this brief: "Son, I just operate by "Griffith's Law".

Of course I asked: What's Griffith's Law"?

He said: It's when I turn 60 and go into the Chief pilots office to say "I'm Capt Griffith and I'm retiring"!

And the Chief Pilot replies: Who's Capt Griffith?

 

[Captzaahlie]

I am an F/O at a regional. If the captain trys to take charge, I just tell him i'm going to twist him into a pretzel when we get on the ground. I make sure i'm the one making the decisions. Just because this Geek sitting next to me got here first doesn't mean I have to listen to him. One time I had to karate chop some clown right in the chops because he told me I was to high. I said oh ya. Crack right across the chops. Before the flight was over he was calling me Sir. I know this type of CRM is unorthodox but it works!!!!

Sure you did.....
So let me get this straight,
You have one of those blow up Otto pilots that I saw on the airplane movie seated next to you while you play on flight sim?
And you "whacked him"?
Did mommy pick up your bowl of chips and clean up your glass of milk when you knocked them over during your "CRM Encounter"?
:laugh:

check out movie at 1min. & 1 sec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdEmmXiB7ew

1 min & 28 sec is even better....

enjoy the blowup doll lightdriver.....

 

[Captzaahlie]

i defiantly wasn't an English major and my spelling is horrendous but as long as you get the message. i agree it is my job to help the flight continue safely but what about the new FO that doesn't know any better and just assumes the captain is right and lets the flight get out of control.

good point.... i guess that when you make the front page or hopefully just learn a good scary lesson....

 

[ERfly]

He said: It's when I turn 60 and go into the Chief pilots office to say "I'm Capt Griffith and I'm retiring"!

Ah, I long for the good ole days...

 

[Flyer1015]

did u wipe the sand out of your vah jay jay?

gear up shut up

What the hell is a vah jay jay? "Gear up, shut up?" You sound like that Korean Air Captain who ignored his FO and treated him like crap. Coming into Guam... FO: "Captain, no runway, go around." Capt: [silent] FO: "Go around, go around!" Capt: [uhmg] FO: "Go around captain." Captain does nothing. Typical Mr. "Gear up, shut up."

What happened next? Crash. 747 plows into ground. Hundreds killed, many injured.

Nice to see you're that kind of Captain. I feel bad for anyone who flies with you.

And keep in mind that FO who nods at what you say, looks at the window and rolls his eyes when you're done sharing your God's gift of aviation.