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Complete Incompetence!

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pilots use "apron"?


I used "apron" once when I asked the "stewardess" if she forgot "hers" when "she" was cooking up my crew meal.

Anyway, real pilots say "tarmac", "stewardess", "cockpit", "Co-pilot" and "Skipper".
 
Click.....

The pilots from those legacy carriers hired at JetBlue were all fo's at their previous carriers. So, they had nothing to say before.

Wrong ... Many of those who came over were Captains.

This is a crazy thread, and I'm not sure why I'm reading it anyway.
 
This incident reminds me of NWA Detroit 10 years ago. I guess nobody learned from that incident. NWA was sued. Although they had a hand in the blame, they were not the only ones and certainly not the major culprit. Detroit (Wayne County) ended spending millions in new snow removal equipment. It, FAA, and NWA revised their procedures to the extent everyone went into panic mode with the first sign of weather... In the final review, the causes and blame were spread far and wide. I will say this: it wasn't the crew's fault. First off, the forecast didn't predict the level of snow that eventually hit. NWA ramp mgt could have alleviated some of the problem by pulling empty planes off gates so arriving planes could deplane and get towed. That would have worked for a little bit, but when the rate of snowfall became excessive, the county was no longer able to clear the taxi ways. Not only did they lack the necessary equipment to handle that much snow, the equipment operators that were called in (late) couldn't get in to DTW because the roads closed. To make matters worse, ATC didn't catch on until it was way too late. A massive breakdown in communication between ramp, ground, tower, approach and center. This breakdown had planes continuing to land with nowhere to taxi, never mind deplane. For a long time they continued to allow incoming traffic to depart for DTW.

Of course, everyone blamed NWA...

The truth of the matter is that we operate in a system that has difficulty keeping up when things are normal. We see it every day. Yes, it's the airline execs, but it's also the feds. Due to typical gov't inefficiency and dinosaur mentality, we have a system that is still operating under 1970s technology. Not only do we burn obscene amounts of fuel routing all over creation, we still depend on voice comminication that barely keeps up in GOOD weather. Essentially we stuff 50 potatoes into a 10 potato bag every day.

Bottom line, when weather of this magnitude hits, flights must get cancelled. Period. So, ...knowing what we know, why doesn't this happen? Follow the money: with the tight budgets and often erroneous forecasts, heads roll when flights are cancelled (monday quarterbacking). Look at the losses incurred by United this year due to wx. That's the airline exec portion of it. The gov't portion involves the closing of airports. They too are judged and are expected to 'push it'. Most of the time, we roll the dice and things work out. This time it didn't. People were inconvenienced and it sucked...but no one was hurt. If we cancelled flights and 'played it safe' to avoid this admittedly severe occasional inconvenience, it would wreak havoc in our business. And the public would complain about that too...

Bottom line, it could have been handled better...but severe weather happens folks. Yes, it sucked, the lawyers are salivating...and we should try to avoid this in the future--but nobody was hurt. Look at us: we live in such an instant gratification/ victim/ blame society...and we operate what is widely considered a public commodity for which people want to pay pennies. This drives the budget, forcing tight margins and risk...then they complain about the service. How far we've come from the covered wagon...in so many ways.

In the end, the class-action suits will lay the blame. Like NWA, however, rest assured the captains won't be found accountable: there was nothing they could do. Enough with 'blowing the slides' and other ridiculous arm-chair heroics. We have enough scrutinizing by management, flight doc, flying public, Federales, market place,...weather, maintenance concerns, etc. We don't need to be attacking and second guessing each other.

Enough already.

D1
 
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During the Northwest debacle in '99 at least one captain called the NWA CEO at home to ask for help.

During American's fiasco at Austin, the captain taxied his aircraft to a gate without authorization, risking his own career.

No doubt we will hear accounts of how JB crews took great steps to mitigate and cope with this disaster in the coming days.

In all three cases the blame/responsibility was essentially the same: Storms that lasted longer and were much more intense than forcasted. Coupled with unprepared company management that provided no plan and little leadership.
 
So BBB, what about the Delta boys, or are you scoped locked on just JB? Diffterent airline, same day. Just no cell phone cameras in the back.

I haven't seen your diatribe on that one yet. Go for it.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=94028

It was a way bad day, but no one was hurt and nothing was destroyed. Man, you are feeling it, aren't you.
 
Frozen brakes jolt JetBlue fliers' plans in Pittsburgh

By Justin Vellucci and Jim Ritchie
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Friday, February 16, 2007


Angie Theodoridis left her Moon home two hours before dawn for a weekend rendezvous in midtown Manhattan with her younger sister.
Lori Chirico weathered flight delays and spent the night in an airport hotel in hopes of making a dental appointment in New York.
Michael Gast, fresh from visiting friends at West Virginia University, just wanted to return home to the Big Apple.
All their plans -- and those of at least 89 others -- were thwarted Thursday when malfunctioning brakes on a JetBlue Airways plane left them stranded on a Pittsburgh International Airport runway for five hours.
The pilot of JetBlue Airways Flight 1050 reported the brakes were frozen and not working after the aircraft headed down a runway to take off about 8:20 a.m. Rescue vehicles responded to the ice-blanketed airfield while workers unsuccessfully tried to repair the brakes, and passengers onboard snacked on animal crackers, nuts and water.
Later, a bus started shuttling 20 passengers at a time to the airport's Airside Terminal, where the waiting persisted and weather conditions forced more outbound flights to be scratched.
The flight finally departed at 7:43 p.m., a JetBlue spokeswoman said.
"Interesting story, isn't it? 'Oh, what'd you do this week? I sat around Pittsburgh Airport,' " said Chirico, 40, of New Castle, Lawrence County, as she killed time in an airport gate nine hours after she was set to fly to John F. Kennedy International Airport. "I'm glad they found out now, rather than when we landed, that we had no brakes. ... But don't they check?"
Chirico chose to wait for JetBlue rather than dish out $735 for a last-minute American Eagle flight to New York. Theodoridis found the price quoted to her for an American Airlines ticket to New York -- $800 -- a bit ridiculous.
"I told them, 'I don't love my sister that much,' jokingly," said Theodoridis, 38.
Others waited out the clock at C56, a gate without TVs or radios where rumors about departures trickled out as JetBlue workers distributed bottled water, gourmet potato chips and $10 meal vouchers.
"I have a brand-new book, but I'm too tired to even read," said Nancy Campbell, 54, of Mt. Lebanon, who slept after her 3:30 p.m. flight to New York was canceled, and she found herself waiting with the morning flight passengers.
The experience Campbell shared with other stranded JetBlue passengers at Pittsburgh International was not unique.
JetBlue was lashed with criticism for numerous delays Wednesday at JFK, including 10 flights on which passengers waited up to 10 hours onboard planes.
More than 250 of JetBlue's roughly 500 flights nationwide were canceled Wednesday, but ''fairly normal'' service resumed yesterday -- except in Pittsburgh. Calling Wednesday's delays ''unacceptable,'' the airline planned to offer affected passengers refunds and free flights. There was no word last night if a similar offer would be made to the Pittsburgh passengers.
 
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]Passengers fit to be tied after parked-plane ordeal[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana][SIZE=-2] [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana][SIZE=-2] By Leslie Miller
Associated Press
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana][SIZE=-2]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1] WASHINGTON — After being stuck for 11 hours on a parked airplane during a snow and ice storm, JetBlue passengers found out there's nothing they can do about it.
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] There are no government regulations limiting the time an airline can keep passengers on grounded aircraft.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The airlines' voluntary code of conduct simply says that during such extraordinary delays, they will make "reasonable efforts" to meet passenger needs for food, water, restroom facilities and medical assistance.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Airlines have blocked attempts to set minimum legal standards for customer service by agreeing to a voluntary code of conduct that they have not always followed.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] On Wednesday, hundreds of JetBlue passengers were stuck for as long as 11 hours in parked jets at John F. Kennedy International Airport during the winter storm.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Sean Corrinet of Salem, Mass., spent almost nine hours aboard a JetBlue flight for Cancun, Mexico, that never got off the ground.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] "It was like — what's the name of that prison in Vietnam where they held McCain? The Hanoi Hilton," Corrinet said, referring to Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] He said the crew passed out bags of chips — the only food available — and periodically cracked the hatch to let in fresh, cool air.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The airline acknowledged that it hesitated nearly five hours before calling for a fleet of buses to unload at least seven jets that spent the day sitting on runways because of the weather and congestion at the gates.
[/FONT]
 
SteelCity said:
"Interesting story, isn't it? 'Oh, what'd you do this week? I sat around Pittsburgh Airport,' " said Chirico, 40, of New Castle, Lawrence County, as she killed time in an airport gate nine hours after she was set to fly to John F. Kennedy International Airport. "I'm glad they found out now, rather than when we landed, that we had no brakes. ... But don't they check?"

*sigh*

I guess they'd rather have spent 11 hours on the airplane instead of being at a gate "without TVs or radios".

Wanting compensation because of a mechanical issue??? YGBSM.
 
"It was like — what's the name of that prison in Vietnam where they held McCain? The Hanoi Hilton," Corrinet said, referring to Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.

Wow... That bad, huh? Hmmm...lemme see...so they hung you backwards by your wrists...and twisted your shoulders out of their sockets...periodically re-broke your arms...starved you, almost to death, in isolation, mentally tortured/humiliated you and paraded you down the 'tarmac' so angry village rampers and fuelers could throw rocks at you? JB should be ashamed...

Hey Corrinet, do a little research...you'll have plenty of time while 'suffering' on your way to Cancun. Not only does this statement portray how incredibly ignorant, whiney and pathetic some of our flying public can be...even worse, the media has the audacity to print such a ridiculous statement. Never an agency to allow the facts to get in the way of a juicy story...

First the media...then come the lawyers in the heated race to the bottom...

Believe little of what you hear from these fools...

D1
 
Frozen brakes jolt JetBlue fliers' plans in Pittsburgh

By Justin Vellucci and Jim Ritchie
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Friday, February 16, 2007


Angie Theodoridis left her Moon home two hours before dawn .


I must have been sleeping a long time. How did I not know about this? There was nothing in the news about a moon base.
 
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When this happened a few years back at NWA, they ended up settling out of court for something like 9 million dollars. Lawyers will be all over this one.

Now-a-days NWA just cancels everything the day before so it never happens again.
 
I just love the company's response to these massive screwups! I will have to remember those if I tank a sim or land at the wrong airport........"Let's see....about the sim....there were definately chances for me to do better in there......I'm I still busted"?
 
Sheesh!!!!! I know this was jacked up, but come on. If I got on this board, and complained everytime you box hauling companies messed up some of my shipments, I would have a General Lee type post count. Bad Karma BBB. Bad Karma.
 
The Captain is Singularly responsible for the welfare of the people. 30 years ago, this would have never happend. Back then, Captains authority really meant something. Over the years, it's been slowly given up and taken away. Obviously this crew was totally unaware of their mandated authority as PIC.

The laws are still on the books, I don't care what the company says, what the agents want, what the ground controllers, need, whatever. The Captain has to have the stones to say enough is enough. The FARs are in place to back him up. I would have blown the slides myself and given the "captain" the finger as I walked into any unlocked door I could find. It's disgraceful.
 
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Way to show some marbles Ski! That's exactly the kind of can-do attitude I was hoping more JetBlue captains would have demonstrated in this last debacle. Instead, they sat there meekly while their passengers suffered. Now, because of their leadership FAILURE, Congress will legislate humane treatment in similar situations in a "passenger bill of rights". If only more captains had demonstrated your leadership there wouldn't be a need for Congress to intervene and "do what's right".

BBB

I think too many pilots are "afraid" of getting into trouble with either the company or the FAA. I do, and have always done my job without the fear of getting into trouble. I have done a lot of things that others might think are crazy or troublesome. I do things that are safe and meaningful. I am not afraid of the FAA or my company. I do things safely.......ie...I landed at EWR without a clearance, but it was safer for me to land than to go back into that crazy, busy airspace.....never heard a word from anyone.

The problem is airlines hire guys that can read a manual and do what it says. They do not hire pilots with common sense. If the plane crashes, they want the voice recorder to have all of the proper calls all the way till their dead, not "oh sh*t, put that checklist down and help me fly the plane". The "100 feet above" impact call shows the pilots were properly trained and therefore are not at fault, even though everyone is dead.

Rant over.
 
Freightdogs and jumpseaters, all monday-morning quarterbacking this one to death. I really enjoyed the tough guys talking about "blowing the slide himself, and giving the captain the finger on the way out".

You guys crack me up, see ya in the funny papers.
 
Well, I actually agree with BBB. This was a really bad situation and I am upset. Not quite as upset as our BB friend so I have a suggestion. JetBlue needs to work on getting a union, hiring more qualified people, and try to improve the industry. For BBB, my suggestion is different. B6 will probably not change as quickly as he would like, and the very existance of B6 seems to really, really, I mean really bother this freight dog operator, so I suggest that he end it all with pills or a gunshot to the temple. I mean, the suffering has to end for him and I can't stand for a person to be in this much (apparent) pain. I hope this doesn't seem to be too dramatic.

DDD
 
the mishap pilot was once quoted...

I think too many pilots are "afraid" of getting into trouble with either the company or the FAA. I do, and have always done my job without the fear of getting into trouble. I have done a lot of things that others might think are crazy or troublesome. I do things that are safe and meaningful. I am not afraid of the FAA or my company. I do things safely.......ie...I landed at EWR without a clearance, but it was safer for me to land than to go back into that crazy, busy airspace.....never heard a word from anyone.
 
So much so that a parent figure (Congress) is FORCED to intervene ........................

BBB

Parent figure? More like the Uncle that raped you and then put you through College. Name one thing the government does right?
 
BBB,

You've proven here that you're no smarter than the average passenger (i.e., self-loading baggage) that flies on US airlines everyday in this country. While you've decided to condemn the 1600 pilots of JetBlue for the sensational headline grabbing media reports of a small handful of JetBlue flightcrews, the last three days of operations at JetBlue have demonstrated incredible acts of leadership by the vast majority of Captains across the entire system that are not worthy of media reporting, but are nevertheless equally relevant in telling the whole story of what has happened.

While it is easy for you to pile on and serve us your condescending rebuke of how poorly we acted as a group. You have no credibility to start this thread since 1.) you weren't in the cockpits of those aircraft as events unfolded, and 2.) you do not fly passengers into and out of JFK airport as a pilot. If you're passing judgement on us because of what you've read in USA Today or MSNBC I'm here to tell you that don't even have thimble full of understanding to the whole story that has occurred.

All you have done here is proven that you are at least as clueless as those you have accussed of being the same at JetBlue. Now if you're feeling smug about stirring this pot go back and look at the mirror and say to yourself out loud "but for the grace of God I hope I never find myself in a situation like that." Because if you think it can't happen to you then you are the true FOOL.

I truly wish no ill on any of us who have to carry out the tremendous responsibilities that are laid at our feet as airline captains for part 121 passenger airlines in this day. When I read about the story of the AA Captain who faced this same situation in Austin the other day, my immdiate reaction was not to burn him at the stake in a public forum, but to try and learn more about the details so I could better understand what happen to him and learn through his experience. Thankfully, by waiting a few extra days and reading more than just the reports from the drive-by media from that event many of the important details of that event event became known and provided much more clarity to what happened.

BBB, you and your ilk would do yourselves a great favor to remember that as well. Constructive criticism involves more than just highlighting the faults, but offering up objective solutions on how the rest of us can learn from your wisdom and experience. After six pages on this thread I haven't read it yet.

Peace out.....
 

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