Comair Vote Results ???

[Illinois]

What are the new rate's?

 

[spinproof]

Thats right blood suckers pile on!!! Pilots can't wait to bathe in someones misery. You should all be ashamed at your vile retoric!

How many "Battle Stars" do you have Fins?? 737?? Report??? Texx ??....PCL-128 ????Yea I thought so. But hey thats history huh! 49.43% are still fighting how about you guys...737? No you're down about 35% ...Fins...not even a strike vote after 3 years???

People who live in glass houses.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Divide and conquer works........

ALPA's failed scope policies have allowed management to win. Fins and spinproof know this, but have been sucked into believing that this is somehow the fault of a particular pilot group. This was not caused by any single pilot group. It was not caused by Mesa, nor Skywest, nor Comair. Likewise this will not be solved by any single pilot group. No single pilot group, can "hold up the bar" or "draw a line in the sand".

The blame for this lies with the $400,000 per year so called "ALPA leadership". ALPA has failed miserably - point the blame where it belongs. Blaiming your fellow pilots will only hasten managements victory.

Joe

 

[spinproof]

ALPA's failed scope policies have allowed management to win. Fins and spinproof know this, but have been sucked into believing that this is somehow the fault of a particular pilot group. This was not caused by any single pilot group. It was not caused by Mesa, nor Skywest, nor Comair.

Joe

What in anything I said makes you believe I fault any pilot group? My point is just the opposite!

I agree it is ALL the pilot groups for letting ALPA call the shots for years!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

What in anything I said makes you believe I fault any pilot group? My point is just the opposite!

I agree it is ALL the pilot groups for letting ALPA call the shots for years!!!

My apologies if I implied that you blame any other pilot group. I am disappointed that Fins, Surplus, and you seem to be fighting when I know all 3 of you understand how we got to this point.

It's similar to the ASA and CMR MECs relationship. It was at one time the best relationship between any two MECs, but now it is one of the worst. It's bad enough that ALPA put us in this position, let's not make it worse by blaiming each other. Especially not the 2 pilot groups that have actually had the stones to stand up to ALPA in the past.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Panzies! Thanks from all of us at ASA for giving management another victory.

Tough words from someone who isn't in their same shoes YET. I say yet because we will find ourselves in the same boat at some time in the future because of ALPA's failed policies. When that time comes, at least 50%+1 here at ASA will also be "panzies" in your words. Given the same situation here, you can paint me as one of those "panzies". Management has not only beaten ALPA, they have all but eliminated ALPA from having any leverage at all. I'm not interested in "taking one for the team".

P.S. You may want to add PDT/ALG, PSA, Air Wisc., ACA, UAL, DAL, NWA, AMR, ATA, USAir and Aloha to your list of "panzies" as they have all taken concessions, some more than once, since 9/11.

You can thank ALPA for "giving management another victory".

 

[JoeMerchant]

Probably planning NWA70, rev 2, or Super J4J. Yeah, we will take all the new 70 seaters at Jet Blue rates for Delta and NWA pilots and "raise the profession" at the small jet providers.

Anyone want to picket Duane Woerth when he comes to Atlanta to talk to the ASA pilots? After all, he was one of the ones who removed the definition of "operational integration" from the CBL's, an act which dropped the green flag on the race to the bottom.

What just happened at Comair should have never happened. There should not be a "Comair" or an "ASA." ALPA should not allow a portfolio of alter ego airlines flying jets from coast to coast and international to "bid" on each other's work.

Fins,

I think it is MidNStarNewcoAtlanticFreedomJets with a flowthrough and J4J. We won't know until after the new ALPA scope committee finishes it's latest top priority report in 5 years.

Sign me up for picketing Duane at the ASA dinner. There was a time when our MEC Chairman would join us in picketing Duane, but not anymore - something about politics and strange bedfellows.

 

[spinproof]

My apologies if I implied that you blame any other pilot group. I am disappointed that Fins, Surplus, and you seem to be fighting when I know all 3 of you understand how we got to this point.

It's similar to the ASA and CMR MECs relationship. It was at one time the best relationship between any two MECs, but now it is one of the worst. It's bad enough that ALPA put us in this position, let's not make it worse by blaiming each other. Especially not the 2 pilot groups that have actually had the stones to stand up to ALPA in the past.

Agreed!

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm sure you would. YOU are exactly what is wrong with this industry. I'm sure you are a minority at ASA because no one I know there shares this attitude. Our pay freeze NEVER affected your aircraft deliveries or flying, so why the hostility?

ILS2DH, this guy is a minority here at ASA. Most of us don't blame you guys for this problem. ALPA on the other hand, that is a different story. They have failed us all. It was a tough decision you guys had to make. The question we should all be asking is when are we going to get some leadership from Herndon?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't think any of us at ASA want to fly CMR planes. At the same time stop pinning blame on ASA pilots for long negotiations. We have been at it for almost 3 1/2 years, same as CMR did on the last contract, and we are close to being released or having a deal (3/3/06). It hasn't helped that just about every carrier out there took some sort of cut including CMR now twice. The first one brought you down to everyone elses level and this latest one brought you down below most except Mesa. You guys have nothing to be proud of and are in no position to be pointing fingers!

Hey Plug, CMR is only the last in a long list of ALPA carriers that have been forced to play in this game of "pay to play". When is ALPA going to come up with a strategy to combat "pay to play"? It's easy for $400,000 per year DW to preach to someone who only makes 1/8th or 1/16th what he makes. If I say NO to the "pay to play" game, will Duane help pay my bills? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Surplus,

By the way, where has ALPA been during all this?

In Herndon, forming another committee to "study" the problem.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Stay tuned...

...MEC Chairmen, NC Chairmen, and Captain Woerth, ALPA advisors from various small jet MEC's met on a conference call today as a follow-up to a previous conference call as well as multi-day small jet bargaining conference that occurred several months ago.

-Neal

Neal,

ALPA's been wasting years on "small jet bargaining conferences" and Scope committees. I hope your right that this time it's different. I'm afraid they are a "day late and a dollar short".

 

[737 Pylt]

Thats right blood suckers pile on!!! Pilots can't wait to bathe in someones misery. You should all be ashamed at your vile retoric!

How many "Battle Stars" do you have Fins?? 737?? Report??? Texx ??....PCL-128 ????Yea I thought so. But hey thats history huh! 49.43% are still fighting how about you guys...737? No you're down about 35% ...Fins...not even a strike vote after 3 years???

People who live in glass houses.....

So let me get this....You think that I am gloating over cmr's problems??? You are truly dilusional sport! Try throwing some of that flame elsewhere! Yet out the other side of your nut drainer you bait fins for their no strike vote....And you talk about glass houses!?!?!
737

 

[surplus1]

Joe,

Nice to see you're thinking and have your head on straight.

I don't really understand why Fins is angry at us for he does understand the big picture and should know that we have not deliberately done any evil to anyone but ourselves.

In terms of ALPA it's more like 10 years late and millions short. Apart from all their politics, let's not forget that the national union was making end runs around our MEC holding secret meetings with our management of which the MEC was never informed; having their lawyers argue against our NC at the table and in front of the company overe Scope issues; cuttint off our funds in the middle of negotiations, and sending telegrams to all CMR pilots urging us to reject our MEC's advice and take a rotten deal, in the middle of our strike. Lets not forget that DW appeared on day one of our strike for his "photo op" and ra-ra words, and then we never saw his face again for the duration. Let's not forget that our so-called big brother from ATL walked with us until the day they got their own contract, after which we never saw them again either. And yes, I could say a lot more.

The closeness of this vote does not show how divided Comair pilots are. It does show how difficult this decision was and more importantly it shows that we've reached rock bottom no matter what.

Here's some statistics on (book rates) of this new contract for those that may be interested.

First Officers:

Only 2 airlines now pay less than Comair for first year new hires. They are SKYW and ASA.

At year 2 and after these concessions and the "common" FO scale, we now pay CMR FO's less than XJT, SKYW and ASA. We still pay more than MES, PCL, PSA, REP and TSA.

At year 5 FO pay is less than SKYW, ASA, XJT, AWAC & Horiz. It is still more than REP, PSA, TSA, PCL and MES.

CRJ-200 CA (& Equiv. 50-seat) -- CMR now pays less than SKYW, REP and XJT. The same as AWAC, PSA, PCL and TSA. More than ASA & MES.

CRJ-700 CA -- CMR now pays less than AWAC (146), ASA, REP and Horiz. Same as PSA and SKYW. More than MES.

After nearly 5 years, I'm sure that those who underbid us over that time will be happy to see that we have now been reduced to their level. It just isn't possible for any one of us to stand alone and we have been left to do that for a long time. Result is the chickens have come home to roost and we must now pay the price. I hope other will not suffer the same fate.

I can only wonder what will happen next.

 

[Puck Mugger]

Sign me up for picketing Duane at the ASA dinner. There was a time when our MEC Chairman would join us in picketing Duane, but not anymore - something about politics and strange bedfellows.

You are one to talk about strange bedfellows.

 

[D'Angelo]

You guys can insult me all you want. You should really be thanking the other 704 for saving your jobs. Sure it sounds fun to try and be a martyr at first. Then you just get thrown to the wolves and let mesa and everyone else gobble up whats left. So heres a toast to all the 704 who thought with their head not their misguided passions. :beer:

 

[nonstop]

You guys can insult me all you want. You should really be thanking the other 704 for saving your jobs. Sure it sounds fun to try and be a martyr at first. Then you just get thrown to the wolves and let mesa and everyone else gobble up whats left. So heres a toast to all the 704 who thought with their head not their misguided passions. :beer:

Just curious. At what point on the payscale would it have to get to for your to consider it "thinking with your head" in order to save a job? Obviously at some point it would be wiser to face the threat of losing a job than taking a pay cut into oblivion. What would that line be for you that would change a career that requires about the same investment as an MBA from a "misguided passion" into a "rational decision?"

Quite frankly I feel that any of us left in this profession have "misguided passion" already. But maybe that's just me.

 

[D'Angelo]

If the cuts were a lot more then yes it would be worth it to go somewhere else. However the cuts take comair from being on top of the payscale to middle of the pack. Its not logical to start all over and take a much larger paycut when you can at least stay middle of the pack.

 

[kc81900]

Hey Plug, CMR is only the last in a long list of ALPA carriers that have been forced to play in this game of "pay to play". When is ALPA going to come up with a strategy to combat "pay to play"?

I find it interesting when its applied to regionals its pay to play and it no good for the industry. When its for mainline its jets for jobs its jammed down our throats and its a good thing for the industry. ALPA's double standards alive and well.

 

[JustaNumber]

It just isn't possible for any one of us to stand alone and we have been left to do that for a long time.

Agreed. What I don't understand is, why don't two or more MEC's get together and make a blood oath to stand together and go down together? I believe most ASA pilots would have stood by your side and could have simultaneously given Delta the finger. Regional pilot costs are not the problem in this industry, and if we complain loudly enough, they won't be the solution to the industry's problems either. Delta doesn't go to the fuel vendors and tell them they need to be paid less for fuel, because the fuel vendors would not stand for that.

As for your assertion that Delta will just replace all the flying with Mesa if we don't sink to their level, maybe we should call their bluff? Maybe they could transfer flying in the long term, but it would be awfully costly for them to try to replace 3600 pilots in the short term. And that would give us time to work with Mesa's MEC to shore up the bottom end.

Whatever happened to the concept of loyalty and unity? It's the only answer that I can see. Any other better ideas?