Comair Vote Results ???

[Sir Muttley]

Sad Day In Cvg!

Well, I have to say thank you to every one of the 50.57% of "yes Fred, what ever you want Fred" voters that made this the most depressing day ever in the history of Comair! The 89 day strike was a BIG waste of time and a BIGGER waste of money. VERY, VERY SAD!

 

[Capi_Cafre']

At least it was close. I hope that sends a message to Freddy.

The message it sends is that management did a perfect job of screwing the pilots without shutting the airline down. If you want to send a message you vote the POS in or out unanimously.

 

[ILS2DH]

You guys have nothing to be proud of and are in no position to be pointing fingers!

AMEN my brother. That's why I voted NO. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone except Report.

By the way, how are things going with your contract? An ASA CA in DAY the other day said the latest proposal was well below the current SKW payscales. Is that true? You think they'd at least offer you the SKW contract. Let the whipsawing begin. Good luck to you guys.

 

[fugghedabowdit]

ASA guys, your quest to become "industry leading", has just become more attainable. Unfortunately, at this level of aviation there is no protection from the whipsaw (thanks ALPA), so your new industry leading contract will come with a bullseye to attach to each pilots back for the duration. Good luck and be careful what you wish for...

 

[Plug]

AMEN my brother. That's why I voted NO. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone except Report.

By the way, how are things going with your contract? An ASA CA in DAY the other day said the latest proposal was well below the current SKW payscales. Is that true? You think they'd at least offer you the SKW contract. Let the whipsawing begin. Good luck to you guys.

We haven't even negotiated pay yet, though the company did present their "opener". The past few weeks have been focused on section 13 scheduling. We have also been working on some other sections that are tied in to scheduling like hours of service and traveling expenses. The company proposed what you guys voted in today, our pilots were a little pissed about that. We shall see.

I am glad you voted "no", but I am afraid the majority, albeit a small majority, trust Fred and what he has to say or they simply don't have a plan "b". I know a lot of our pilots are ready to walk away and find something else to do or take their chances in the job market, myself included. Good luck with this new deal, god forbid they come back looking for more.

 

[gkrangers]

So what are the ramifications of this pass for the pilots?

 

["GO AROUND"]

AMEN my brother. That's why I voted NO. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone except Report.

By the way, how are things going with your contract? An ASA CA in DAY the other day said the latest proposal was well below the current SKW payscales. Is that true? You think they'd at least offer you the SKW contract. Let the whipsawing begin. Good luck to you guys.

The usual. Slow and slower, but the company wants this contract done. They just aren't showing it at the table. We're not looking for a leading contract, just not going to accept less than industry standard in QOL issues and pay just because the company agreed to a substandard agreemant with DAL.

The companies 3 yr overdue opener was horsesh*t! Now the comparison of payrates they put out to get us to agree to can be updated to show the Comair rate as actual and not proposed.

Talked to our MEC and CNC over the last two days and our position will not change even with this addition to the reduce pay to play game.

I heard that the vote passed by 7 votes, exactly the number on the Comair MEC. Coincidence? I guess their hard sell during their road shows paid off.

Good luck to us all in this industry.

 

[generaltso]

Wow this is just pathetic. I just lost a lot of respect for 704 people.

 

[standaman]

Wow this is just pathetic. I just lost a lot of respect for 704 people.

I have no problems with other regional pilots commenting. But if you truly are a student pilot then you should stick to issues of your own. All Comair pilots lost today. If anybody thinks otherwise you have problems. We still have a very tough road ahead. Even tougher with a divided pilot group.

 

[ILS2DH]

[

I heard that the vote passed by 7 votes, exactly the number on the Comair MEC. Coincidence? I guess their hard sell during their road shows paid off.

Good luck to us all in this industry.[/quote]

It was actually 16 votes. The MEC did not endorse the concession package, and it was presented to the pilots to vote on as a "concession" and not a TA -- for whatever that's worth.

In their road shows, they claim that the DCI agreement with ASA/SKW requires that you guys be the 2nd lowest paid by year 4 and the lowest by year 6, or the contract can be pulled. Any of you guys heard that?

 

[SennaP1]

Magic Words

Has any body used the Magic words yet? R...e to t..e B..tt..m Yet?

In all seriousness, all the best to you Comair guys (both sides). Not a good situation. But I guess you do what you have to to survive; for those that voted yes.

Good Luck.

 

[JECKEL]

""In their road shows, they claim that the DCI agreement with ASA/SKW requires that you guys be the 2nd lowest paid by year 4 and the lowest by year 6, or the contract can be pulled. Any of you guys heard that?""


I heard the same thing the other day about the DCI/SKW agreement. If the first "hurdle is not met then growth aircraft are compromised. If the second "hurdle" is not met then the contract is compromised.

If this is true, then it really sucks to be ASA.

 

[surplus1]

Well, we could have voted NO and won the battle; while losing the war.

When U went bakrupt, the pilots voted over and over again to cut their wages and benefits in an effort to save their airline. They undercut the pay of regional airlines by as much as 35% without batting an eye. In turn that resulted in Jet Blue establishing a new low in wages for 100-seat aircraft and undercutting regional pay for 70-seat aircraft by a wide margin.Results = YTD for U now absorbed by AWA, already a low wage carrier, that is now matching Jet Blue wages for 100-seat aircraft..

When AA was about to go bankrupt the pilots voted for major pay cuts to save the airline. Massive furloughs relieved somewhat by taking jobs from Eagle pilots. Results = favorable.

When UAL went bankrupt the pilots voted for major concessions to save the airline. Results = YTD

When DAL went bankrupt the pilots voted for major concessions to save the airline. Results = YTD

When Hawaiian went bakrupt the pilots voted for major concessions to save the airline. Results = favorable

When Aloha went bankrupt the pilots voted for major concessions to save the airline. Results = YTD

ATA pilots took major concessions and still lost half their company. Results = YTD

NWA pilots have given up 24% of their pay and it's still not settled. They are bankrupt. If they don't give more they can strike ... and go the way of EAL and TWA -- out of business. Results = YTD

When TWA went bankrupt the pilots voted for major concessions to save the airline. Results = failure; out of business; fire sale to AA.

When forced into bankruptcy by DAL, the Comair pilots have voted for major concessions to save the airline. Results = YTD

CAL pilots gave up the idea of an industry leading contract. They're doing ok, so far.

Now let's compare that to some others.

MESA pilots - Agreed to a substandard contract supposedly to fight Freedom; undercutting everyone. They happilly now have Comair's flying in part. They accepted J4J and gave their seniority to mainline pilots.

PSA, PDT and ALG all took major concessions. PSA got more flying, the others little or nothing. All gave up their seniority to U pilots in J4J.

SKYW pilots - Voted to fly 99-seat airplanes for 50 seat pay to get more flying from bankrupt United. They happily took it and they got more from DAL too. Company promised wage increase in 18 months. Company lied. SKYW pilots got the growth they voted for and are happy with it to the point of gloating.

CHQ pilots - Voted for substandard pay supposedly to stop Republic. They accepted J4J and gave their seniority to mainline pilots. They got major growth in exchange, including much of Comairs logical growth. They are happy with it and in love with their E-170's.

AWAC pilots voted for concessions - to keep flying from United They lost it anyway to MESA and CHQ. Then their company had to "buy" their flying from USAir.

ACA pilots took concessions to help their company get away from United. The effort failed; they're out of business.

TSA pilots extended their contract for 2 years and accepted J4J. Their company got more flying, but it went to GoJ and not to them.

MSA accepted a mediocre contract. NWA took away their airplanes and they are now bankrupt. Results = YTD

ASA = lucked out of the DAL bankruptcy by the SKYW acquisition. No contract and none in sight.

At this point there is no one in a position to critique Comair pilots. We have been forced into this by the very people that are now clamoring for us to "hold the line" so that they can take our flying, which not one of them would refuse. When we did hold the line and raise the bar, not one of them followed us.

This vote may not result in anything good for Comair pilots but there is little doubt that a NO vote would have resulted in good things for the same people that are now calling us names.

We live in interesting times. Let him that is without sin cast the first stone.

 

[COpilot]

Surplus,

Excellent point! A pilot at any airline is going to look out for only ONE person. Might as well accept this law of nature, and wait for the industry to hit bottom.

Welcome to the 21st Century Bus driver, "Oh wait, I did'nt mean to offend any city bus drivers."

 

[ILS2DH]

Surplus,

Excellent post. Really sums up what has happened in this industry. Also another reason I voted no. I just can't take part in the race to the bottom. The YES vote just gives me more time to work on plan B without drawing unemployment benefits.

By the way, where has ALPA been during all this?

 

[KingAirer]

CHQ pilots - Voted for substandard pay supposedly to stop Republic. They accepted J4J and gave their seniority to mainline pilots. They got major growth in exchange, including much of Comairs logical growth. They are happy with it and in love with their E-170's.

And now CHQ is among the highest paid 50seat captains. Accepted J4J and every J4Jer goes to the bottom of the list regardless of seat. All J4J is not created equal. Its amazing that comair wants to retain its arrogance after voting twice for concessions in the past year.

 

[SlapShot]

Here is the problem I have with COMAIR.

For a few YEARS now, they have looked down their nose at just about every other regional operator. I was sick of them pointing to their "industry leading contract". How they took a stand and won. Turns out they are no better then anyone else. Next time we share a van to or from the hotel perhaps you could say "good morning" or something.

Now we are all just pilots, non better then the rest.

 

[surplus1]

And now CHQ is among the highest paid 50seat captains. Accepted J4J and every J4Jer goes to the bottom of the list regardless of seat. All J4J is not created equal. Its amazing that comair wants to retain its arrogance after voting twice for concessions in the past year.

They may be on the technical "bottom of your list" but that doesn't change the fact that they get 1/2 of the Captain positions, perhaps more in Republic.

No matter how much you polish a turd it is still a turd.

 

[ILS2DH]

And now CHQ is among the highest paid 50seat captains.

Don't you see? That won't last for long. Next CHQ contract will have paycuts down to CMR or Mesa or whoever is lowest at the time. If they don't agreed, then all their flying is at stake and mgmt will convince them to concede or the airline will die. I'd bet my last dollar that we'll be having this exact discussion again when the CHQ contract comes up, and probably still doing it 10 years from now. That bastage JO at Mesa said it best a couple of months ago --- "The gun is now in managements hand".

 

[KingAirer]

Here is the problem I have with COMAIR.

For a few YEARS now, they have looked down their nose at just about every other regional operator. I was sick of them pointing to their "industry leading contract". How they took a stand and won. Turns out they are no better then anyone else. Next time we share a van to or from the hotel perhaps you could say "good morning" or something.

Now we are all just pilots, non better then the rest.

Exactly my point. and I agree that every one else will be pressured for concessions now, whether it be formal or in the their next contract.

 

[KingAirer]

They may be on the technical "bottom of your list" but that doesn't change the fact that they get 1/2 of the Captain positions, perhaps more in Republic.

No matter how much you polish a turd it is still a turd.

Enjoy your new pay.

 

[sweptback]

In their road shows, they claim that the DCI agreement with ASA/SKW requires that you guys be the 2nd lowest paid by year 4 and the lowest by year 6, or the contract can be pulled. Any of you guys heard that?

Guess what, the old DCI agreement with ASA allowed Delta to cancel the codeshare too. They never did -- as a matter of fact it grew. If you think that Delta will cancel the ASA codeshare when our parent company owns the gates on C and D in ATL, you're crazy. There's no room at the airport for a IAD G-gates setup either, thank goodness.

Also, the new DCI agreement with ASA allows our management to underbid even the lowest bidder for new flying in the DCI system. So basically you guys are negotiating pay-for-play for the table scraps.

 

[ILS2DH]

Also, the new DCI agreement with ASA allows our management to underbid even the lowest bidder for new flying in the DCI system. So basically you guys are negotiating pay-for-play for the table scraps.

Guess what. The only way to underbid the lowest bidder is to cut costs and apparently airline managers think the only way to do that is through pilot pay cuts.

Sucks for us all.

 

[regionaltard]

Here is the problem I have with COMAIR.

For a few YEARS now, they have looked down their nose at just about every other regional operator. I was sick of them pointing to their "industry leading contract". How they took a stand and won. Turns out they are no better then anyone else. Next time we share a van to or from the hotel perhaps you could say "good morning" or something.

Now we are all just pilots, non better then the rest.

And here's the problem I have with pilots who have a problem with Comair.

That "industry leading contract" wasn't fought for to give Comair pilots something to feel superior about, it was fought for to end the "virtual B scale" that existed in a large segment of the industry. What you call "looking down their noses" is a very self-serving way of describing Comair's reaction to the fact that other ALPA-represented carriers began undercutting them almost before the ink was dry on their contract.

Once Mesa got the ball rolling downhill the rest was fairly predictable, but I still think that any pilot who presumes to trash-talk Comair needs to ask herself what her pilot group has ever done that can compare.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Duane Woerth must sign this LOA in order for it to become effective...AND...the rest of the unionized employee groups must also have agreed to concessions in order for it to become effective. Good luck Comair pilots.

-Neal

 

[surplus1]

Regionaltard,

Thanks for an objective comment.

 

[surplus1]

Duane Woerth must sign this LOA in order for it to become effective...AND...the rest of the unionized employee groups must also have agreed to concessions in order for it to become effective. Good luck Comair pilots.

-Neal

Thanks for the good wishes. Let's hope you don't find yourself in the same barrel before long.

Don't worry about Woerth, he'll sign anything.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Don't worry about Woerth, he'll sign anything.

Thanks...and I wouldn't be so sure about that, but just my guess. Time will tell.

-Neal

 

[SlapShot]

I still think that any pilot who presumes to trash-talk Comair needs to ask herself what her pilot group has ever done that can compare.

While at the time I applauded Comair for taking a stand and striking. I never agreed with the attitude that came from their pilots. In the last 2 years I have been denied a jumpseat on a Comair flight with 3 open seats, told I had to get out of a hotel van because Comair does not share vans with other crewmembers, and was told a Comair crew could not hold the van 3 minutes for us (we were right behind them going into AVP). That is why I resent Comair.

 

[atrdriver]

And here's the problem I have with pilots who have a problem with Comair.

That "industry leading contract" wasn't fought for to give Comair pilots something to feel superior about, it was fought for to end the "virtual B scale" that existed in a large segment of the industry. What you call "looking down their noses" is a very self-serving way of describing Comair's reaction to the fact that other ALPA-represented carriers began undercutting them almost before the ink was dry on their contract.

Once Mesa got the ball rolling downhill the rest was fairly predictable, but I still think that any pilot who presumes to trash-talk Comair needs to ask herself what her pilot group has ever done that can compare.

I think that you need to realize that you were the last to negotiate a contract pre 9/11. You seem to forget that ASA had the industry leading contract for 2 years, before ACA jumped past us. They had it for a while before you passed them. You arent the only ones who have ever raised the bar, so stop acting like it.