Comair Vote Results ???

[D'Angelo]

This is probably bait but what the heck.

I have no proof but I would guess that at least 75% of the yes voters, probably more, were here in '01. They have a lot more to lose than the junior folks who can easily replace their CMR wages by working at Sears, Home Depot, etc.

Finally someone who gets the BIG PICTURE. I am still waiting for my thank you note from 49% of the group. We are still middle of the pack with the new wages. Better than bein on the street

 

[D'Angelo]

and another thing all these people screaming about holding the bar.. How many were just waiting to pounce on the flying that would have opened up? I guarantee you mesa, chq, hell even asa would have been all over that like $hit on a fly. Everyone is so mad because they werent able to swoop in and get some mo growth.

 

[Sucka]

I am ashamed

As a CMR pilot I am ashamed and saddened by our pilot group... The Comair name on my wings just lost all of its luster... We do not have the right to poke fun at and complain about the "bottom feeders" any more... CMR pilots voted to lower the profession.

 

[172driver]

Finally someone who gets the BIG PICTURE. I am still waiting for my thank you note from 49% of the group. We are still middle of the pack with the new wages. Better than bein on the street

I think you might be reading me wrong, as I certainly don't see the 'big picture' the same way you do. I am a first officer and, like I said, my new wage is easily replaced with almost any job out there. I believe what we do is slightly more skilled, requires a great deal more training, and carries a lot more responsibility than most $30K jobs. I was definitely a no voter because I had nothing to lose. I should be making $41, $1.75 PD, retirement. I am now making $31, $1.50 PD, no retirement.

BTW, with the lost yr of seniority from the Feb LOA, we are far below "middle of the pack." We are actually just above Mesa, trolling the bottom of the muck. I am embarrassed to wear my uniform and can no longer look other pilots in the eye. I understand why people voted yes, especially the captains, but I no longer wish to be associated with this group of pilots.

I have also lost respect for the group who struck in '01, most of who, I believe, voted yes for this proposal. I now understand that they never truly felt that their jobs were on the line in '01, but were simply using their leverage. When their jobs were actually threatened in '06, they folded like a house of cards.

 

[flyinglow]

The vote was pretty darn close. Is anyone investigating probably fraud?

 

[surplus1]

I was definitely a no voter because I had nothing to lose.

That one sentence is the key to everything else you have said. YOU had nothing to lose, therefore it just didn't matter to you what any of your fellow pilots had to lose did it? Congratulations! You've just told me more than I ever wanted to know.

Because you believe that YOU could replace your job at Home Depot or MacDonalds it just doesn't matter to you that people who have put in 15, 20 or more years of their lives can't replace their jobs, not at Home Depot or anywhere else. It doesn't matter to YOU what happens to anyone else at Comair as long as YOU can satisfy YOUR personal wants of a few more dollars per hour. I don't know if that's what you meant but it IS what you've said. What a shallow perspective.

Tell me; what sacrifice did you make to get the dollars your were receiving? What did YOU contibute to earning any of the contractual benefits that you have been enjoying? The answer is NOTHING, and you know it! You my friend are a free-loader, which is why you have "nothing to lose".

Tell me please; if you DID have "something to lose" does that mean you would have voted YES? It sure sounds like it. All you've done is convince me that you really have no understanding whatever of what it means to have a real spine. You're just clueless and have a lot of growing up to do.

By what you said you have lead me to believe that the one and only consideration that affected your decision was YOU ... and to he!! with everybody else. I ask you: should that make me feel that you're my "brother"? Somehow it doesn't.

Well, I'm one of the people that voted YES. I didn't do it because of what I had to lose and certainly not because of what I had to gain. I did it because, right or wrong, I firmly believed that all 6,000 of Comair's people would "lose" if I didn't and our airline would cease to exist. I felt that the lives and jobs of ALL the good people that I work with were at stake and a lot more important than just my own needs.

Contrary to your belief I know a lot of captains who voted NO due to their principles. None of them has told me that they voted that way because they had "nothing to lose" for they all have much to lose. I respect their decision because it is honest. I do not respect your decsion for you have made it totally clear that it is selfish, and nothing more.

Maybe I am wrong about the potential results of a NO majority; we'll never know. But, I'm not wrong about why I made the decision. Your decision may have been correct and my fears may never have come to pass. However, voting NO simply because YOU had "nothing to lose" is not only the wrong reason, it is disgusting.

I have also lost respect for the group who struck in '01, most of who, I believe, voted yes for this proposal. I now understand that they never truly felt that their jobs were on the line in '01, but were simply using their leverage. When their jobs were actually threatened in '06, they folded like a house of cards.

"Out of the mouths of babes".

If that is your honest opinion then it is my opinion that you never had any "respect" for anything or any one of your fellow pilots; you were just pretending because you believed that was to your personal benefit. You're just a run-of-the-mill opportunist who is willing to sacrifice anyone, as long as YOU have "nothing to lose".

I am embarrassed to wear my uniform and can no longer look other pilots in the eye. I understand why people voted yes, especially the captains, but I no longer wish to be associated with this group of pilots.

No my friend, you don't understand and with that attitude it is clear that you never have or will. That you have proved beyond all doubt. If you did understand you could not have written what you did.

I don't care whether you voted YES or NO because I assumed that your vote and all the other NO and YES votes were based on what you and others honestly believed was best for this airline and ALL of its pilots, and the rest of its people. I now realize that was not the case. You voted NO ... because YOU "had nothing to lose".

Now you tell me that you are "embarrased" to wear your uniform and you no longer wish to be associated with this pilot group. Very well. Now I must tell YOU that I am embarassed to think that you are still wearing that uniform for it is now clear to me that you are not a Comair pilot and you never have been. You've just been masquerading as one while it was to your benefit.

I encourage you to take the steps to end your "association" with our group at your earliest opportunity. Go please, as quickly as you can and don't let the door kick you in the a$$. Take the uniform off as quickly as you can. If you can't do that then turn in the wings and the hat brass and borrow some from the airline of your choice. I wouldn't want anyone to mistake you for a Comair pilot.

I'm not angry because you voted NO and I am not angry with anyone who did because of honest conviction. But I am angry because of what you've said in this post and I am also ashamed. I would not have been ashamed of a NO majority and I am not ashamed of the YES majority. I'm just ashamed of you. I'm glad that I don't know who you are for if I did I would not wish to sit next to you knowing how you feel.

Go, and God speed. You're not one of US and we don't deserve your kind.

 

[Berry McCockner]

Surplus1,,,,You are a sellout.. Everybody has something to lose. Its called a job, pride, selfworth.. Let me ask you something. Do you really think that the 17 million that the pilots just gave will save your airline?? Do you think that you guys will start getting the Q400's or more 70 seaters?? Do you not think that your fate has already been sealed?? What you've done has just made it easier for Delta to sell you off. 17 million is a drop in the bucket on the balance sheet of delta. You and 50.xx% of your budies there are SELLOUTS. Enjoy your new contract and paycheck...

 

[D'Angelo]

Hey at least 51% were smart enough to save our job. Would it really have been any better to have voted no; then let mesa swoop in and take whats left of the flying? I think not. Either way the proverbial bar finds a way to be lowered. The only difference is all comair pilots hit the street and not one person gives a dammn about the sacrifice. Sure they scream here about how the vote hurt the industry. The problem his the industry has been hurt for the last 4-5 years. Every new regional contract that was signed after Sept 11, 2001 has "lowered the bar". Everyone was forced to come down to that level or simply hit the street and take a much more massive paycut. In the end logic won. Maybe someday there will be leverage for pilots again. This wont be any day soon though. There will always be more pilots than jobs available. The problem is there is a surplus of flying out there. Until the supply equals the demand again we will have no leverage. For now you have to do what it takes to survive then hope for the best later.. Oh and BTW how long can that home depot job supplement what you make as an FO even at $34/hr. You pick up an extra trip here and there, work a lot less than you would at a desk job and still make between $35-40,000/yr. You get a lot more days off than you would at home depot. You only get 8 days off, hmmm sounds just like mesa too me.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,,,,You are a sellout..

First of all Berry, unless you work for Comair you have nothing to say that matters. Second, if you do work for Comair you're dead wrong. My guess is you don't work here.

Everybody has something to lose. Its called a job, pride, selfworth..

If you read what I wrote or if you understood any of it then you would know that I agree that everyone at Comair does have something to lose and that's worth a lot more to me than the opinon of those who declare that they voted NO because they have "nothing to lose". Pay attention and you'll get the message.

Let me ask you something. Do you really think that the 17 million that the pilots just gave will save your airline??

I'm not certain if it will or not. I do believe that if we did not lower our costs to match yours we would cease to exist and the likes of you would happily do our work. Perhaps now you won't get that change and we will have the chance to recover. I'm not certain, I just hope so.

Do you think that you guys will start getting the Q400's or more 70 seaters??

No, I don't think that. We wont get anything until we emerge from bankruptcy. After we do it may still take a while and we still may not get anything. This agreement doesn't come with any guarantees, it merely avoids one for an unknown period of time. Will you be upset if it works? It sure seems that way.

Do you not think that your fate has already been sealed??

No, I don't think that our fate has been sealed. I think the outcome of this vote prevents our fate from being sealed, at least for a time.

What you've done has just made it easier for Delta to sell you off.

Boy you really don't get it do you. What makes you think I would be unhappy if Delta sells us off? In case you've missed it, I was unhappy when Delta bought us, I've been unhappy every day they have owned us, and I'll be celebrating if they can sell us off.

The only thing that being owned by Delta over the last 5 years has done for my airline is destroy it. Why would I care if Delta sells us? I'm praying that they find somebody to buy us.

17 million is a drop in the bucket on the balance sheet of delta. You and 50.xx% of your budies there are SELLOUTS. Enjoy your new contract and paycheck...

In case you forgot, the pilots are not the only ones affected by this. It may be 17 millions for us but it is 70 millions for the whole airline. I case you didn't notice it takes more than just pilots to operate an airline. This pilot thinks that the other people who work here are no less important than the pilots.

I won't enjoy my new contract or my new pay check, but both are better than no contract and no paycheck. Without this one I might be forced to work in the same place that you work. Why don't you tell me where that is so I can get the picture of just how great your contract is?

Now, if you have nothing better to do, why don't you go over to the major board and tell the U pilots, UAL pilots, Delta pilots, NW pilots, HAL pilots, ALO pilots and ATA pilots that they are sellouts. Maybe that will make you feel more important.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Many of us have had to make sacrifices both in quality of life/W-2 as well as our own career expectations.-Neal

Only if you work for a commuter or a 121 legacy carrier.

 

[CarjCapt]

Surplus1:

Respectfully I don't agree, and we have respectfully disagreed before, with your contention that a "no" vote would have resulted in Comairs' devistation.
Based on the history of "last and best offer" by management I believe we would have negotiated further. Having said that my "no" vote at my senority ment that it would be difficult at best to start anew. My options were few.

The reason for my "no" vote is based on 17 years of watching, as you have said before, Comair go from a stepping stone airline to a Career Airline, with pay, work rules and benefits that were the best in the regional industry.

My vote was emotional rather than rational because anyone who understand our industry from a business stand point would vote "yes" and lived to fight another day. I just couldn't do it.

 

[Sucka]

Surplus is so great

I am proud of anyone who voted yes, thus condeming the FO group to four years of poverty. You are happy now, paying your mortgage and feeding your family. But FOs cannot... We will not make $35k-$40k a year for the next four years. FOs will make less than CHQ and barely above Mesa... Is that the kind of quality you want in your right seat? You get what you pay for. I am happy that the CPT group is surviving, but you better have some sympathy for your bitter FO group... Why did the FOs get hit so hard? Why did the company propose to have the same payrate for 40-90 seats for FOs and not CPTs? Because Fearless Fred wanted the CPTs votes, and he got them...

I am proud to vote no, because there was no urgency to vote yes at this moment in time. Why have we allowed the company drag out our previous contract negotiations?

 

[pilotyip]

Sucka you should show the company the ultimate no vote, vote with your feet if enough people vote with their feet it will get the company's attention. You could make more at almost any on-demand place, Net Jets, even AirNet.

 

[Sucka]

I am leaving the company b/c of the YES vote by Comair... I also realize that my departure will have absolutely no effect on the company.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1:

Respectfully I don't agree, and we have respectfully disagreed before, with your contention that a "no" vote would have resulted in Comairs' devistation.
Based on the history of "last and best offer" by management I believe we would have negotiated further. Having said that my "no" vote at my senority ment that it would be difficult at best to start anew. My options were few.

I have no problem at all with that. We made a different decision and I respect your decision. I was not upset with the young man because he voted NO and I said so. I was upset with his reason. He said that he voted no because he had "nothing to lose." Then he said he was embarrased to wear our uniform and did not want to be associated with this pilot group. Those are the things that got me so upset, not the NO vote itself.

I obviously do not know with certainty that a NO majority would have resulted in the demise of Comair. I could be wrong and readily admit that. I tried to evaluate the information provided by our NC and MEC as best I could together with my own analysis of the business environment and Delta's dire economic situation. I came up with the answer that a YES vote was the only viable option under the circumstances.

In my opinion the company's "last and best offer" in this circumstance is very different from a last and best offer in normal negotiations. We were not "negotiating" at all, we were responding to an ultimatum. Perhaps we could have re-arraanged the chairs on the deck of the Titanic (Delta) but, as I see it, Comair isn't big enough to affect anything that Delta is doing. What they want they have the power to take in bankruptcy, and I'm not refereing to 1113(c). I do not believe that Delta would have sought contractual relief from Comair pilots in the courts. If they were going to do that it would have been done at the time they filed, as it was with the Delta pilots.

Unfortunately, we have nothing in our contract to prevent the transfer of the equipment to another DCI carrier. We have nothing to prevent Delta from simply returning our aircraft to the lessor. In my opinion, Delta management is not concerned with what happens to Comair, they are concerned with what happens to Delta and they are desperately in need of cash. They will do whatever is necessary to get it. It is still a very real possibility that Delta itself may not emerge from bankruptcy. If they can get 500 million by liquidating Comair they will do it without a second glance.

This YES vote does NOT guarantee the survival of our company and I know that. All that it really does is provide some more time for Delta to solve its problems. We are one of those problems. That's is Delta's fault but it still doesn't change reality. My hope is that the new contractual terms may, and I say again may, attract an outside investor who will buy Comair as a whole and provide Delta with more "cash" than it would get from selling or returning the pieces. IF that happens, and it's a big IF, we will have the chance to rebuild our company and recover from the havoc created by Delta. Comair people deserve that chance. We may not get it even with these cost reductions, but I feel we would not get it without them. It's not just the 17.3 millions from the pilots; it's a total of 70 millions from the Comair family. In other words, they are forcing us to "buy" our freedom.

Comair pilots have done what the pilots of every other bankrupt airline have done. I'm sure that ALL of them hate the decisions they have had to make just as much as we do. I wish were were exempt but being "owned" by Delta has prevented that. It's a sad state of affairs but we have to play the hand we've been dealt. Emotion does not change the cards.

There is no doubt in my mind that this "contract" is a POS. However, many of the other regional contracts out there are still bigger POS. That made our regular contract stick out like a sore thumb. When you have a sore thumb you either cure it or cut it off. Bankruptcy gives Delta the ability to "cut it off".

Please don't think I voted YES because I feel it was a "good" decision. I felt it was the "only" decision. When you play Russian Roullette there is supposed to be one bullet in the chamber of a six-shooter. That ostensibly gives you 5 chances to come up with a "blank" when the trigger is pulled. When you know there are 6 bullets, one in each chamber, the game of Russian Roullette becomes intentional suicide. Comair people don't need to pay for the stupidity of Delta Air Lines with their lives.

As the song Gambler says, "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em". A former president of ALPA once told me ... "never point a loaded gun at the company's head unless you're prepared to pull the trigger". In this particular case, I wasn't prepared to pull the trigger with the lives of 6,000 people at stake.

We have lost this battle and there's no two ways about that. With a little bit of luck we can recover and eventually win the war. That is my hope.

The reason for my "no" vote is based on 17 years of watching, as you have said before, Comair go from a stepping stone airline to a Career Airline, with pay, work rules and benefits that were the best in the regional industry.

I understand your reasons and I respect your decision. Even though it was different from my own, it does NOT create any hard feelings on my part. You were one of us before you voted NO and in my book you still are!

You have a great deal to lose and you still voted NO. That makes me feel proud of you. I also feel proud of those who had just as much to lose and voted YES.

Those with the attitude "I had nothing to lose so I voted NO", don't even deserve the right to vote at all. In my book, people who feel they have "nothing to lose" should not have the right to decide the future of those who have a great deal to lose.

My vote was emotional rather than rational because anyone who understand our industry from a business stand point would vote "yes" and lived to fight another day. I just couldn't do it.

I admire your candor. It takes courage to admit that your vote was "emotional". Believe me, we have the same emotions. The only difference between us is that I tired to put my emotions aside. I voted with my head, not with my heart. It wasn't easy and I'm not happy that I had to make this choice. I pray that it was the right one for all of us and yes, I lose sleep over it.

Best regards.

 

[9rj9]

JC Lawson

MEC chairman J.C. Lawson is also to blame, he couldn't keep Comair mgmt at the table and got the take it or lose it option. Did you know he pulls down 160K a year, never flys, and is out with his ALPA buddies drinking beer on your dime. He buys trips for his Reps that in turn keep him in office. Throw this bum out, he is part of your problem. Oh ya take his side kick Bill "I'll tell you what you want to hear" Baker with him. What has he been doing for the past 3 years besides collecting a paycheck.?

 

[172driver]

Surplus,

I generally respect and agree with your opinion, but you are way off base on this one. You have no right to attack me on the basis of one sentence in a flightinfo post. You certainly seem to have made a lot of assumptions on why you think I voted the way I did. Because I said, in the end, my decision came down to my needs, you assume I took no one else into consideration?

I definitely weighed the needs of every employee in this company, my needs, my family, and the other pilots in the industry before I came to a decision. You assumed otherwise. Probably the biggest factor in my process, as I said earlier, was that these new rates do not pay fair market value for a CRJ FO, nor for a pilot with my level of experience. The FO's got thrown under the bus here...by the company, by the union, and by their peers, i.e. you.

We went from mid $40K, 60% of CA pay, to low $30K, 55% of CA pay. That is a huge difference when you are at the low end of the earning scale, but I'm sure you remember that, right? The difference, for me, is owning my own house versus an apartment with roommates. How much weight did you give my needs when you voted to put my job at a subsistence wage? Yeah, I'm sure you thought about the FO's, but it really didn't sway you, did it? In the end, it was about saving YOUR job.

You see, in the end, our personal needs and those of our family always win out. You voted to save your job and I voted to save mine, for it is not a job I can do at the proposed wage. I would guess many FO's felt the same way.

Only 2 airlines now pay less than Comair for first year new hires. They are SKYW and ASA.

At year 2 and after these concessions and the "common" FO scale, we now pay CMR FO's less than XJT, SKYW and ASA. We still pay more than MES, PCL, PSA, REP and TSA.

At year 5 FO pay is less than SKYW, ASA, XJT, AWAC & Horiz. It is still more than REP, PSA, TSA, PCL and MES.

CRJ-200 CA (& Equiv. 50-seat) -- CMR now pays less than SKYW, REP and XJT. The same as AWAC, PSA, PCL and TSA. More than ASA & MES.

CRJ-700 CA -- CMR now pays less than AWAC (146), ASA, REP and Horiz. Same as PSA and SKYW. More than MES.

Knowing how sharp you normally are, I have to say I am a little surprised at how badly you botched your analysis of our new rates. You seem to have missed the fact that we all lost a year of longevity with the Feb. LOA. Thus, in making any comparison, a 5 yr guy must look at the new 4 yr pay, 10 at 9, etc. If you do that, you will see that, in every category, we are lower than everybody but Mesa. In fact, the 70 scale is equal to Mesa.

This is what you voted for...bottom of the barrel. This is also why I am embarrassed to share the same uniform. We voluntarily went from the very top to the very bottom, in the blink of an eye. Had the rates actually been industry average, or DCI average, I may have been able to stomach it.

Somehow, the company and our union were able to convince us, even a sharp guy like you, that these are DCI average rates. How did that happen? Everybody seemed to forget that we gave up a year of service, saving the company an untold number of additional millions and placing us on par with Mesa.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

I didn't know your dad works for Phred...

That isn't quite how it works brainiac. Apparently you are not terribly familiar with the process under the RLA.

...and by the way I don't work for Mesa (or CHQ), but you soon will. This sweetheart of a deal you fellers just handed management is just what they needed to get Ornstein to pony up to buy you at Delta's little fire sale.

Portfolio Phred is sitting back laughing his ass off while his manservant bathes his assh0le in Congnac that you guys paid for.

 

[uba757]

Surplus, I dont understand how you could even think that this is the end of it. Delta probably went to Mesa and said "You can have Comair for almost nothing with a pay freeze" and Mesa probably said we need something lower a more permanent in the pay scales and benefits and that is what you just gave them. Next step will be Mesa saying that they like what they see but just need the scales to be a little lower to make the deal. Fredy will come back and ask for more and you will give him more because now you have nothing to bargain with, nothing at all. UBA757

 

[D'Angelo]

I have also lost respect for the group who struck in '01, most of who, I believe, voted yes for this proposal. I now understand that they never truly felt that their jobs were on the line in '01, but were simply using their leverage. When their jobs were actually threatened in '06, they folded like a house of cards.

If anyone strikes or tries to "send a message" in todays environment the result is simple. The contract is cancelled and the flying goes somewhere else. There is no leverage in this economy. Unfortunately its like a vicious cycle. Like they always say you have to know when to hold em and when to fold em. 01 was the time to hold em. 06 was the time to fold em. Tell me one thing that would have been accomplished had the vote gone the other way. All that would have happened was everyone else swooping in and no one even appricating the sacrifice. The non existant bar is lowered either way. The only question left to ask yourself is "Got open time?"