Comair Vote Results ???

[wolfpackpilot]

The blame for this lies with the $400,000 per year so called "ALPA leadership". ALPA has failed miserably

BINGO...

 

[BluDevAv8r]

BINGO...

Wrong

 

[spinproof]

So let me get this....You think that I am gloating over cmr's problems??? You are truly dilusional sport! Try throwing some of that flame elsewhere! Yet out the other side of your nut drainer you bait fins for their no strike vote....And you talk about glass houses!?!?!
737

How am I suppose to interpet your post here? Dilusional? Maybe. You seem to not be able to resist calling people names. Belittling them as sport if you deem them in disagreement. Doing so is an inherent character flaw persistant in your diatribes and also of those connected to the Democratic party.

You and others ,Fins included, are busting on Comair pilots. How is it flamming when I point out your own shortcommings?

May I suggest a vacation or extremely deep breath while contemplating one's own situation. If you're lucky you'll be old someday also!

I am not familiar with the term "nut drainer"? How many sides does it have?I will of course put this in the derogatory column untill I can verify it is not intended as a compliment.

 

[737 Pylt]

How am I suppose to interpet your post here? Dilusional? Maybe. You seem to not be able to resist calling people names. Belittling them as sport if you deem them in disagreement. Doing so is an inherent character flaw persistant in your diatribes and also of those connected to the Democratic party.

Name calling??? Sport?? Lighten up Francis!

You and others ,Fins included, are busting on Comair pilots. How is it flamming when I point out your own shortcommings?

Busting the cmr pilots?? You need to take a reading course! Point it out where I'm busting on cmr pilots. They're going to need all the help they can.

May I suggest a vacation or extremely deep breath while contemplating one's own situation. If you're lucky you'll be old someday also!

Don't have time for a vacation, in school right now. I love old people. I just don't like when they blame everyone else for their problems!

I am not familiar with the term "nut drainer"? How many sides does it have?I will of course put this in the derogatory column untill I can verify it is not intended as a compliment.

Figure it out. I'm sure you're bright enough!
737

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Wrong

I spent years (at 3 carriers) listening to ALPA tell RJ pilots to just wait their turn for the big $$. We know what we're doing when we sign contracts "young man".

Yeah, thats turned out really well. Anyone who doesnt think ALPA is in deep water with open wounds is obviously not in tune with the current political landscape of DC and the Aerospace Industry.

It's like the old Soviet Army rank system...

Is anyone in charge around here?

Drastic times call for drastic measures, every member in ALPA should be demanding an explination of where the national union leadership is going, and what they see as the solution to obviously 5 years of reverse acheivements.

In laymans terms, "Hey DW, whats the game plan here buddy, we're getting our butts handed to us by the managements and the government."

 

[spinproof]

Figure it out. I'm sure you're bright enough!
737

Oh I've figured you out. So has everyone else.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I spent years (at 3 carriers) listening to ALPA tell RJ pilots to just wait their turn for the big $$. We know what we're doing when we sign contracts "young man".

Yeah, thats turned out really well. Anyone who doesnt think ALPA is in deep water with open wounds is obviously not in tune with the current political landscape of DC and the Aerospace Industry.

It's like the old Soviet Army rank system...

Is anyone in charge around here?

Drastic times call for drastic measures, every member in ALPA should be demanding an explination of where the national union leadership is going, and what they see as the solution to obviously 5 years of reverse acheivements.

In laymans terms, "Hey DW, whats the game plan here buddy, we're getting our butts handed to us by the managements and the government."

That's interesting...I've been at a small jet carrier for 6 years and have never heard the kinds of things that you are saying were said. As I said, some may say it is "a day late and a dollar short" but National is making this "pay to play" small jet issue a very important priority. One also has to keep in check their own expectations about what National "can and can't do." What is realistic here as far as what is possible? What "should" National be doing? What "should" your own MEC and pilot group be doing? Most pilots' complaints about National really are complaints about their own MEC.

And most pilots' frustrations over the last few years are a direct result of the industry's downturn and the other variables associated with it. I challenge anyone to tell me that if 9/11 never happened and oil was at $30/bbl that they would still have all of these complaints if the majors were hiring and no concessions were ever taken.

The industry sucks right now. No doubt about it. Many of us have had to make sacrifices both in quality of life/W-2 as well as our own career expectations. That is a tough pill to swallow. But please...let's be rational about where to place the anger and frustration. There are limits as to what National can and can't do (as well as should and shouldn't do).

-Neal

 

[surplus1]

Just curious. At what point on the payscale would it have to get to for your to consider it "thinking with your head" in order to save a job? .

I think the the fact that this passed with a margin of only 16 votes should tell you and everyone else that Comair pilots have reached the point of no return. We are there, now. Just one more item, one more dollar, would produce a different vote result.

In my opinion this was not a vote to "save our jobs", it was a vote intended to provide two opportunities: 1) the survival of the airline as a whole; 2) time to find a new job while still being paid, for those who wish to do so.

If you would like you can use the UAL, AAA, DAL, NWA, HAL, ALO, ATA, ACJ, PDT, PSA, ALG pilots as examples of why concessionary contracts were agreed to in bankruptcy. Then you can ask the AA, AWAC, CHQ, SKY, TSA, MES, MSA and others why they agreed to concessions or inferior contracts outside of bankruptcy for whatever reasons.

When you have all your answers collected and cross referenced then you may understand why CMR pilots just voted as we did.

Perhaps you might also consider the fact that CMR was forced into bankruptcy by its parent Delta. It did not result from the failure of Comair people to manage their affairs for Comair people have not been permitted to manage Comair for the last five years; we are and have been managed by remote control, by employees of another airline. Delta itself has been grossly mismanaged and may not survive in spite of more than 1.5 billion in concessions from its pilots alone, plus billions from other Delta employees.

The conditions that have affected the employees of all of the bankrupt carriers are essentially the same even though the causes of the bakruptcy may be different. I think it safe to say that none of the bankrupt pilot groups are "paying to play" nor are they trying to "buy their jobs". What they are doing is paying to survive.

Until your pilot group is held hostage by a management terrorist it is perhaps wise not to stone those that are. None of us knows what you detractors will do when you're faced with the same situation.

I suggest that the crowing should be left to the roosters for only hens can appreciate it, and we're fresh out of those.

 

[mrnolmts]

What I don't understand is, why don't two or more MEC's get together and make a blood oath to stand together and go down together?

Easier said than done, given that some are ALPA, some are Teamsters, some are In-House, and some have no union. Unless you can get *everybody* involved, the chance of success is virtually non-existant, in my view.

 

[surplus1]

Agreed. What I don't understand is, why don't two or more MEC's get together and make a blood oath to stand together and go down together?

Probably for the same reason United pilots, or Delta pilots, or NW pilots, or USAir pilots or CAL pilots just don't walk out or make blood oaths with each other. They know very well that whoever is left will be more than happy to take their place once they "go down". How many people at Delta would you guess were literally praying that USAir would tank? Do you think American pilots felt sorry for what happened to TWA? Were TWA pilots concerned about the welfare of Ozark pilots? Did Eastern pilots rush to the aid of Braniff pilots? Did NW pilots embrace Republic pilots or did they fence them out for 20 years? And I've only scratched the surface.

Haven't you noticed that the pilots of every airline always cross the picket lines of other airlines that are on strike, often without so much as a nod? When you ask why, the answer will always be the same, "we're just doing our flying" and besides, the RLA won't let us join you. Do you really think they would "join you" if the RLA allowed? Think again.

In the regionals if two "went down together" there would be 10 foaming at the mouth to pick up the pieces. Just imagine how quick they could "upgrade". If you can't be replaced by just Mesa, you sure can be replaced by all the others. Why do you think the "portfolio concept" exists?

The President of Mesa has been quoted as saying that he pays his pilots too much. When asked why, he allegedly responded ... because I always have more applicants than vacancies. That should tell you something about "unity".

We just reduced our new hire pay to less than $21. Do you think it will affect our ability to recruit? Not one bit. It sure hasn't affected SKYW or ASA or Mesa and they only pay $19.

Do you think that if CMR pilots quit because the seniors didn't want to go from $113 hr to $93 hr there would be any shortage of captains if the company offered to hire new ones for $56 and hour? Does Jet Blue have any shortage or trouble recruiting new hire captains who will start in the EMB190 at $71 hr? The answer to all lthose question is, I think, NO. Where does that leave us?

As for your assertion that Delta will just replace all the flying with Mesa if we don't sink to their level, maybe we should call their bluff? Maybe they could transfer flying in the long term, but it would be awfully costly for them to try to replace 3600 pilots in the short term. And that would give us time to work with Mesa's MEC to shore up the bottom end.

I don't remember asserting specifically that "MESA' would take all the flying. What I am saying is that there would be no shortage of people who would find it "beyond their control" to simply accept whatever came their way. That by the way is the history of ALPA, as well as those that are not ALPA. Those that were left have never failed to find a way to eagerly pick up the pieces of those who failed for whatever reason. The pieces and, in most cases, not the pilots.

Whatever happened to the concept of loyalty and unity? It's the only answer that I can see. Any other better ideas?

Your idea is both noble and altruistic but it embodies concepts that exist only in the imagination, not in reality. There is unity and loyalty within individual airlines but there has never been any unity or loyalty between airlines. Forever and a day every pilot group has always been ready and willing to take full advantage of the misfortunes of every other pilot group.

Even when there is a voluntary merger of two companies, each is more than willing to "staple" the other to the bottom of its list and only pitch battles, arbitrators and lawsuits ultimately (but not always) prevent it. Fairness or altruism, if they make the list at all, have always been found at the very bottom of things to do. When that is the case in a merger or an acquisition, how do you expect to be different when someone is put out of business (whatever the reason)?

The rhetoric tells us that everyone is supposed to "defend the profession". Reality tells us that everyone defends his own position and whatever happens to the other guy is seldom even a consideration.

The very structure of the largest pilot "union" is designed to pit the various members against each other. Unity is a figment of the imagination. It only exists when there is common interest without economic penalty, such as medical or safety issues. When there is money involved, it's every man for himself.

Are there other ideas as to how this problem might be solved? For the "legacy" airlines, I think not. For the regionals I think yes, but I also think they will come from creative managements, not from pilot groups. That could end the fights between the little guys but at the same time it would only exascerbate the struggle between the large and the small.

Life is just a bowl of cherries.

 

[JustaNumber]

Your idea is both noble and altruistic but it embodies concepts that exist only in the imagination, not in reality. There is unity and loyalty within individual airlines but there has never been any unity or loyalty between airlines.

Unity is a figment of the imagination. It only exists when there is common interest without economic penalty, such as medical or safety issues. When there is money involved, it's every man for himself.

Perhaps I'm being extremely naive, but I like to think that the world is what we make it.

Once upon a time, ALPA pilot groups were eager to jump at the chance to improve upon their fellow pilots' contracts. It was win-win for everybody. I agree that when there's money involved, it's every man for himself, but it sure would be nice if everyone could figure out that if we ALL only voted for increases and never decreases, we could belong to a world where there is common interest without economic penalty, every man for himself along with economic benefit. True leadership could foster such an environment, but that leadership has been sorely lacking from anyone recently.

 

[Bosley]

You and others ,Fins included, are busting on Comair pilots.

Busting on anyone who is suffering money losses , facing furlough or losing their job is absolutely pathetic. I have been on furlough, I have lost everything I have, stood in umemployment lines, collected welfare, and when I read things like this, it makes me wonder what kind of monster is actually piloting an aircraft:

Pray you never have to endure unemployment pal, it isn't pretty!

Originally Posted by lawman
I pray for the failure of your company. Better get your application in at Wendies so you can save up the cups and earn free trips on Airtrash

 

[Axel]

...Unless you can get *everybody* involved, the chance of success is virtually non-existant, in my view.

This, right here, is the most concise and accurate description of the strategy so successfully employed by our collective managements.

Management keeps us fighting amongst ourselves with the INTENT of preventing us from forming a common defense. They have divided and are in the process of conquering. Do you think maybe they discussed this with each other and it might even be a PLAN???

"Alright Fred, nice job with Comair. Next it'll be Bryan's turn to hold the Comair concessions up to the Republic pilots and after that...let's see..oh, yeah, it'll be Johnny's turn again. And by the way, Johnny, that Freedom thing was brilliant. Look how well it's working for Hulas. OK, meeting adjorned. Next week same time? "

And what do we do to counter the strategy? We don't. We are an integral part of it; just too stupid to see that.

Who is this week's workin' girl? Guess its Comair's turn to pull the train. Management has/is playing us from top to bottom like a cheap accordion and we just keep clapping in time.

It is not Mesa, not Comair, not the contract carriers, not the mainline, not the wholly owneds who are leading this so-called race to the bottom; at least not in the way we believe. All of us are racing headlong downhill in one giant thundering herd. No pilot group is leading the race; stampedes don't have leaders. Instead, the herd (mob, rabble, whatever) voluntarily and willingly follows the course plotted for us by a management as they watch us turn upon ourselves.

We are collectively the tools of management. We do their work for them. All of us.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed. What I don't understand is, why don't two or more MEC's get together and make a oath to stand together and go down together? I believe most ASA pilots would have stood by your side and could have simultaneously given Delta the finger.

Whatever happened to the concept of loyalty and unity? It's the only answer that I can see. Any other better ideas?

In a perfect world, you would be right. This isn't a perfect world and there isn't much loyalty and unity in this business. The ALG/PDT/PSA MECs tried exactly what you suggested when the Jets4Jobs gun was held to their heads. They "agreed" to stick together, but PSA broke ranks first, and then the whole coalition fell apart. Next, the ASA and CMR MECs tried what you suggested, and well it didn't really work.

The only way to make it work is to have a single ALPA bargaining agent that negotiates with the "brand" management (ie Delta, United, Northwest, etc.).
Having 4, 5, or 6 separate MECs compete within the brand is a losing proposition from the start.

 

[n6604f]

definition: Flying Baffoons; Comair pilots that woted yes to concessions, most of which were not there in 01' other wise they would of voted NO!

 

[JustaNumber]

The only way to make it work is to have a single ALPA bargaining agent that negotiates with the "brand" management (ie Delta, United, Northwest, etc.).
Having 4, 5, or 6 separate MECs compete within the brand is a losing proposition from the start.

That sounds like an interesting idea. But how would you go about setting it up? Especially since you're dealing with a multitude of airlines within a brand, some having the Teamsters, some having no union, all having contracts that expire on different dates. Would everyone have to agree to bring ALPA on their property? Would ALPA have to change its representational structure, in order to create one single "Super MEC"? How would the Super MEC handle a situation where a single pilot group still insisted on flying for less than its brothers? (You think the fights are bad on this msg board, wait til the individual airlines start fighting with each other over the next 79 seater at the local MEC meetings). And could the major airline then do an end run around this Super MEC by contracting with someone new who wasn't represented, or creating another holding company ala G-o-j-e-t-s? Could this actually work?

Tell me more. I like the idea so far.

 

[davessn763]

Dave, are you happy with your "NO" vote now? Looking back...did it make sense?



Everyone wants a sacrificial lamb...as long as it isn't them. Ultimately that will be up to XJT management and the XJT pilots.

-Neal

Neal,
Voting no in the fall of 2004 was for me the right thing to do, there are a lot of variables in our contract that are at the company's discretion, mainly though I was unsatisfied with the FO pay not being 60% of CA rates, which I believe was up to us and not management, let me know if I am wrong on this. I also wasn't going to approve of a contract where my guaranteed salary would be less than an FO at a non union carrier, Skywest. Some times you have to put your foot down and say this is not good enough.
With that said, I am unfortunately glad to be among the highest paid ERJ-145 pilots now. I wonder how long it will be before its our turn to vote on paycuts, or I am displaced back to the right seat. Hopefully none of that will happen and I can gain the expirience at XJT that I need to move on to the next step in this career.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,
Voting no in the fall of 2004 was for me the right thing to do,

Everyone clearly had to make a personal choice. Nothing wrong with your vote or your choice.

there are a lot of variables in our contract that are at the company's discretion,

There are less of those variables today than under C'97 and every contract has those variables unfortunately.

mainly though I was unsatisfied with the FO pay not being 60% of CA rates, which I believe was up to us and not management, let me know if I am wrong on this.

Yes, we could have brought all FO's to 60% and in doing that, your CA rate today would be less than it is. Squeeze one end of the balloon and the other gets smaller. We had to make difficult choices in how to balance out the money. FO's all (with the exception of first year FO's) got a bigger percentage increase than Captains. Remember we had a difficult starting point with our FO percentage of CA on the rate.

I also wasn't going to approve of a contract where my guaranteed salary would be less than an FO at a non union carrier, Skywest.

I believe there were one or two years where the rate was less. But did you compare 401k plans? Scheduling sections? Vacation sections? Scope sections? etc.

Some times you have to put your foot down and say this is not good enough.

Of course there are those times...though we laid out the risks to doing that and it appears those risks held true.

With that said, I am unfortunately glad to be among the highest paid ERJ-145 pilots now. I wonder how long it will be before its our turn to vote on paycuts, or I am displaced back to the right seat. Hopefully none of that will happen and I can gain the expirience at XJT that I need to move on to the next step in this career.

Time will tell. We definitely have the bullseye on our head now that CMR has had their contract gutted. I am definitely glad, however, that we didn't vote no out of principle to hold out for the illusory "release by the NMB" or some "bigger pay package by the company." One must balance the risk versus the reward and I am glad we ratified our contract when we did because the alternative surely wouldn't have been better in my personal view.

-Neal

 

[mrnolmts]

Management keeps us fighting amongst ourselves with the INTENT of preventing us from forming a common defense. They have divided and are in the process of conquering. Do you think maybe they discussed this with each other and it might even be a PLAN???

"Alright Fred, nice job with Comair. Next it'll be Bryan's turn to hold the Comair concessions up to the Republic pilots and after that...let's see..oh, yeah, it'll be Johnny's turn again. And by the way, Johnny, that Freedom thing was brilliant. Look how well it's working for Hulas. OK, meeting adjorned. Next week same time? "

I believe this answers that question:
http://www.regionalhub.com/?a=1&id=3848

 

[172driver]

definition: Flying Baffoons; Comair pilots that woted yes to concessions, most of which were not there in 01' other wise they would of voted NO!

This is probably bait but what the heck.

I have no proof but I would guess that at least 75% of the yes voters, probably more, were here in '01. They have a lot more to lose than the junior folks who can easily replace their CMR wages by working at Sears, Home Depot, etc.