Comair MEC burning bridges with Delta?

[Freight Dog]

Originally posted by miller22
Freight,

I have to admit I agree with a large part of your post. Especially when you said, "I've seen those topics and most are pure frustrations by the furloughed crowd." You're absolutely right. Well said.

The only thing I'd like to add is that (speaking for myself, of course) CHQ, ACA and Skywest don't pose a threat to Comair/ASA. Routes are plentiful for the RJ's. Its the ability to acquire aircraft that is the limiting factor in growth of a regional, and right now DALPA is restricting the W/O's ability to grow their fleet. Admittedly contract carriers could stifle growth later, however Comair/ASA will never grow large enough to deal with that problem if they can't solve the more pressing and immediate issue, scope.

I understand that currently CHQ, ACA and SkyWest may not appear to pose a threat to Comair/ASA, but bear in mind that they are indeed taking flying away from you, which takes away the movement within your ranks. You say that DALPA is restricting the W/O's ability to grow their fleet. I don't know the exact language of Delta's scope restricting your flying, but if it implies DCI to include non-WO's, then the problem lies with CMR/ASA - no scope protection. I don't think DALPA is restricting CMR/ASA only while allowing SKYW, CHQ, and ACA to run unlimited number of pax, however, please correct me if I am wrong.

Besides, by scoping other airlines, that requires Delta to place their planes on unprofitable (or less profitable) routes to meet scope requirements. Works short-term, but I'm interested long-term. IMHO scope (whether on the sending or receiving end) runs contrary to the laws of economics and is ultimately bad for business. With one exception...Delta mgmt is eating up the anger between the two pilot groups. So in an undeclared battle between Delta pilots and Comair pilots, management wins. Doesn't seem right.

I'm not sure if I agree with your view of scope because scope protection in this case would define who flies what where. Instead of SkyWest having a base in SLC for Delta operations flying 50-seat CRJ's, why not make it a CMR base instead? Unprofitable? If it is... I doubt SkyWest would be doing it out of generosity towards Delta. So there is probably money to be made there, and it could be YOU flying it instead of a non-ALPA, non-WO airline.

I most definitely agree that the management is eating up this anger between the pilot groups.

One last thing I think should be said. Even though we don't agree on several issues, I'm impressed and pleasantly suprised with the perception in your posts. Especially with a topic as touchy as this one, it usually gets ugly and personal. Thanx for not taking it there, and in turn keeping me from making the same mistake. A pleasure to disagree with you.

Absolutely, likewise!

 

[CRJFlyer]

NYRANGER,

yeah your probably right....and because my hockey team doesn't even have an owner, your now 2 up on me...

 

[~~~^~~~]

... then the problem lies with CMR/ASA - no scope protection. I don't think DALPA is restricting CMR/ASA only while allowing SKYW, CHQ, and ACA to run unlimited number of pax, however, please correct me if I am wrong. [/B]

ALPA is keeping any of the DCI carriers from being able to negotiate with Delta. ASA and Comair's MEC have both asked ALPA and Delta to engage in negotiations of system wide scope, ALPA refused to allow the Connection MEC's to participate.

Documentation does not yet exist in the public domain that shows that the Delta MEC is responsible for blocking the Connection Carriers MEC's from representing their pilots to theior employer. However, the Delta MEC has in the past tried to differentiate the Connection Carriers to avoid the perception of operational integration that would lead to a single carrier petition.

If Connection pilots were allowed equal representation we could achieve effective scope. ALPA absolutely will not allow that because we might just scope their favored employee group, the Delta pilots!

So don't blame Connection pilots for not having scope. It is the actions of our own union that keep us from having equal representation to our employer.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am a Delta Pilot,

We will get our remaining 737-800's orders back in 2005, and eventually get 90 or 100 seaters---like A318's.

So, to wrap it up, ASA pilots will eventually benefit and Comair guys will continue to hear "Caution Wake Turbulence" as they watch former ASA pilots take off in Delta 767-300's. Got it? The Comair guys should enjoy the 25 or so CR7's for the next 4-5 years during negotiations.

General Lee: But your MD-80's and 88's will be gone by 2009. There are not that many 737-800's on order. Also, my understanding from a fleet planning manager and a Delta V.P. of Ground Ops is that a 90-100 seat jet does not make sense for Delta. The reasoning is that a 90 to 100 seat aircraft requires an entire gate, while three RJ's can be stacked around a single gate. The cost of the gate space makes the 90-100 seater more expensive than a CRJ700 to operate. Also, the costs of having another fleet type are a consideration.

I am an ASA pilot. No, we do not have any sort of preferential hiring at Delta when this draw down is over with. Your preferential hiring has always been military guys and friends of friends of Plato. Bottom line is that our MEC is in contract negotiations and needs contigency funds. ALPA has them by the budget hairs and we are not causing any political trouble for anyone as long as we are living week to week to fund the operation of our MEC.

The Comair MEC Chairman wanted to discuss other areas of mutual concern and your MEC Chairman refused. This was not a situation where the Comair MEC refused anything. The Comair MEC dared to make a counter proposal and apparently did not understand that he was being dictated to by a superior MEC Chairman.

Some how, some where, a few of the Comair pilots feel that maybe they should have equal representation in our union. That means that we negotiate - you know a little give and take.

The Delta MEC Chairman, in all candor, stated that his concern rests with military pilots who should not have to fly RJ's. Maybe he correctly represents the way the majority of your pilots want things to be, but, it does not good for our union when the prevailing concern is for pilots who are not ALPA members and who have yet to fly a single Delta passenger.

No, I don't expect a preferred hiring anything at Delta because my MEC is compliant with your demands. If I ever decide to come over I will have to find a friend of a friend of (Chuck Broome is it now) and base my application on my quals, like anyone else.

Frats...
~~~^~~~

 

[Lumber Yak]

At least Delta pilots are not outraged with ASA's MEC like they are with Comair's MEC. I have spoken with several Delta pilots and they are unanimous - not happy at all. You have to admit, that can't be helpful...

Any good negotiator would consider his/her "BATNA" or Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement. If you have a good BATNA you have great negotiating leverage... Comair's MEC does not have a good BATNA - poor relations with Delta is not good for jumpseating, preferential hiring, etc. Delta's MEC knows that most current Delta pilots would not "desire" to go to Comair unless circumstances warranted it (i.e., being furloughed). However, it is reasonable to say that a fair percentage of Comair pilots would at least like the OPTION to move to Delta. Comair's MEC made a decision that only had one acceptable outcome - compliance (like ASA). By not accomodating furloughees, Comair's MEC has poisoned the water. To think that you could negotiate scope issues by using furloughees as BARGAINING CHIPS is laughable. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.

What type of response did the Comair MEC expect - especially after the monetary support during the strike? When you think about it, the decision seems a bit shortsighted... Using pilots as bargaining chips during tough times - probably not a good option.

 

[Freight Dog]

ALPA is keeping any of the DCI carriers from being able to negotiate with Delta. ASA and Comair's MEC have both asked ALPA and Delta to engage in negotiations of system wide scope, ALPA refused to allow the Connection MEC's to participate.

Documentation does not yet exist in the public domain that shows that the Delta MEC is responsible for blocking the Connection Carriers MEC's from representing their pilots to theior employer. However, the Delta MEC has in the past tried to differentiate the Connection Carriers to avoid the perception of operational integration that would lead to a single carrier petition.

If Connection pilots were allowed equal representation we could achieve effective scope. ALPA absolutely will not allow that because we might just scope their favored employee group, the Delta pilots!

So don't blame Connection pilots for not having scope. It is the actions of our own union that keep us from having equal representation to our employer.

OK, I want to clarify something because I don't understand it. When you say Delta MEC has tried to differentiate the Connection Carriers to avoid perception of operational integration leading to single carrier petition, do you mean single carrier petition for the whole DCI or a single carrier with Delta? I believe that CMR/ASA should be merged into one carrier, and if you manage to do that, it would be easier to obtain scope. You couldn't scope out Delta because that is your parent airline, if you will, and your purpose is to "feed" it. However, you COULD scope SkyWest, CHQ, ACA, and others who are not wholly-owned out of DCI flying.

Isn't this the basic idea of ALPA's BSIC?


Just curious...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Frieght Dog: You raise a good question. The Delta MEC has tried to differentiate Delta from Connection, while ALPA Natl has shown little enthusiasm for combining ASA and Comair. But, I had not really considered that a benefit of an ASA / Comair merger might be scope negotiations with DCI. But, Delta, not DCI, controls flying permitted under Section 1 of your contract, so I am unsure that negotiating with DCI could fix the scope dilemma. I'll have to do some research on that.

The idea behind the BSIC is that it acts as a sunset committee to do nothing while giving the appearance of providing a forum for disgruntled small jet pilots. Just look at the result of the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee. Have they published one word on the impact of scope? No

The only reccommendation that the BSIC put up at the 2002 BOD was a resolution to hold more meeting and continue studying the issues that face ALPA members. Oh, and they also resolved to ignore inconvenient portions of the Constitution and Bylaws by allowing MEC's to meet with each other without the leadership of ALPA National to resolve these problems - hence this meeting with the Comair MEC!

Face it, isn't it silly for Bill Buergey to go to CVG to discuss the hiring of Delta pilots when the decisions are actually made on Virginia Ave in Atlanta? Why does the Delta MEC Chairman have to even waste his time talking to the Comair MEC when Delta decides how many and who Comair hires!

Before you call bull effluvia, think about the Northwestern University scholarships for women and minorities that Delta sponsors. Those "interns" are coming to ASA and Comair and none of our folks interviewed them. It is all a Delta deal.

 

[miller22]

At least Delta pilots are not outraged with ASA's MEC like they are with Comair's MEC. I have spoken with several Delta pilots and they are unanimous - not happy at all. You have to admit, that can't be helpful...

Any good negotiator would consider his/her "BATNA" or Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement. If you have a good BATNA you have great negotiating leverage... Comair's MEC does not have a good BATNA - poor relations with Delta is not good for jumpseating, preferential hiring, etc. Delta's MEC knows that most current Delta pilots would not "desire" to go to Comair unless circumstances warranted it (i.e., being furloughed). However, it is reasonable to say that a fair percentage of Comair pilots would at least like the OPTION to move to Delta. Comair's MEC made a decision that only had one acceptable outcome - compliance (like ASA). By not accomodating furloughees, Comair's MEC has poisoned the water. To think that you could negotiate scope issues by using furloughees as BARGAINING CHIPS is laughable. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.

What type of response did the Comair MEC expect - especially after the monetary support during the strike? When you think about it, the decision seems a bit shortsighted... Using pilots as bargaining chips during tough times - probably not a good option.

You say it exactly how it happened, LumberYak. Delta MEC came to Comair MEC and DEMANDED that Delta furloughees be hired at Comair without resigning their seniority number. In return Delta MEC was willing to offer preferred hiring. What is that supposed to mean anyways, especially coming from a union rep. What are they going to do, tell the interviewers to "look favorably" upon Comair pilots, while at the same time telling them to "look more favorably" upon military pilots? Maybe ASA gave in, but I'd be very interested in hearing actually how many furloughed Delta pilots were hired by ASA, and which of those had already flown at ASA. Comair has the ball in their court, and if DALPA is going to demand things with the threat that if you don't accept what we force-feed you, we'll make things hell for you later, then the Comair MEC can just take his ball and go home. The great irony of the meeting is that the Delta MEC was the one who lost his cool and stormed out.
DALPA wants something from Comair, that Comair (mgmt) isn't ready to give. And preferential hiring at Delta is not a deal-maker for Comair mgmt, so you have to offer something they want. So far scope remains the most restrictive negotiating item. Make it worth Comair's while to hire pilots who are guaranteed to leave just when they most need pilots, and you'll see this all fade away. But when you don't get something for nothing, don't cry foul because the Comair MEC wasn't strong-armed like DALPA expected.

 

[DAL737FO]

Miller22,

I doubt seriously that the Dalpa MEC DEMANDED anything. I suppose you were there when it happened, or are you falling prey to what usually turns out to be Urban legends later on. This thread is getting old, and going no where, you guys do have the ball in your court right now. You are hiring at record rates and taking RJ deliveries at record rates. Good for you. I'd like to see how you and ASA fight for the 57-70 seaters that are not Force Majuerable in the Delta contract. That's right boys and girls the only people that are going to suffer at Comair are the young girls/guys that want and desire to fly something bigger or make more money later on in their careers. I have to agree with CRJFlyer on the issue that this is only leading to more bad blood for years to come and my time would/will be better spent doing other things.

Have fun,

Furloughed DAL737FO

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Delta Pilots,
Are all you really serious about all this? What the heck do you think an MEC's job is? I can tell you this, finding me a job at Delta is NOT part of it. It was there DUTY to bring up those issues when your MEC met with them. There only purpose in life is to better our careers AS COMAIR PILOTS through ALPA.
You MEC knows this, we all know this. We pay them to do this. Look it up, show me where it says they should seek flying opportunities at other airlines thru preff hiring agreements. It aint there, and you all know it.
It was an ambush plane and simple. Look at the way they announced to you guys 2 weeks before it happened that they were going to ask them for support for preff. hiring. They knew that if our MEC did what they were put in office to do, they would bring up matters such as scope. I find it shameful and unprofessional what your MEC did. It was pure politics straight from the DNC play book.

Our MEC did what any MEC SHOULD of done. They went to the meeting to represent the Comair pilots first and foremost. They are first concerned about our pilots as COMAIR PILOTS, not Comait pilots WHO MAY ONE DAY BE DELTA pILOTS.

 

[flaps30]

question

What will keep the senior DAL pilots from resetting the scope again ? If the company wants paycuts or scope reduction, which will the MEC pick ? I have a feeling the 57 seventy seater limit will fall.

x-midway

 

[ShaftedbyJI]

Clarification

Face it, isn't it silly for Bill Buergey to go to CVG to discuss the hiring of Delta pilots when the decisions are actually made on Virginia Ave in Atlanta? Why does the Delta MEC Chairman have to even waste his time talking to the Comair MEC when Delta decides how many and who Comair hires!

FINALLY, someone who knows the REAL truth to the situation!!!!Comair's MEC didn't make the policy MANAGEMENT did. I tried to stay out of this silly little debate but it was just too much!

Regards,
Shafted

 

[Freight Dog]

Afellowaviator,

What your MEC did was very anti-unionlike.. using furloughed ALPA pilots as an extortion tool for additional gains in expansion of Comair flying is WRONG! While I agree with you that MEC's job is to look after the interests of their own pilot group, please tell me how is he looking after your interests by not endorsing the hiring of furloughed ALPA brothers/sisters? Does it affect you in any way if your junior-most FO is a 1200-hour CFI, a furloughed Delta pilot, or a former Midway pilot? If Delta MEC came to ya and said.. we want a flow-through/flow-back in place and super-seniority over current Comair pilots, then there would be no question that by saying no, your MEC would be looking after your interests. Right now.... he's screwing his ALPA brothers/sisters at the parent airline, and IMHO his behavior is best described as morally low, and I can truly hope that Delta guys won't forget this.

Best regards.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Afellowaviator,

What your MEC did was very anti-unionlike.. using furloughed ALPA pilots as an extortion tool for additional gains in expansion of Comair flying is WRONG! ......Does it affect you in any way if your junior-most FO is a 1200-hour CFI, a furloughed Delta pilot, or a former Midway pilot? ...... I can truly hope that Delta guys won't forget this.

Best regards.

So how "unionlike" is it for your Delta MEC Chairman to refuse to discuss a seniority number for Comair pilots because of his concern that military pilots don't want to start at the bottom at a regional airline? That is what this thread is about! The Comair MEC correctly asked for something objective in exchange for their efforts, not a empty promise of preferential hiring when Buergey came right out and said it was his preference that military pilots be hired first.

The hypocracy of you guys is nothing short of amazing. Buergey says that he does not want to water down the gene pool at Delta by making it more difficult to attract military pilots while he completely over looks the fact that our operationally integrated airlines fly the same passengers and we happen to be in the same union. For some reason your MEC Chairman feels a greater obligation to pilots learning to fly T-41's than he does ALPA members flying 75,000 lb jets at .85 full of Delta passengers that his pilots need to fill their airplanes on a daily basis.

 

[Lumber Yak]

I'll keep it simple.

Main issue of thread: preferential treatment. ASA provides furloughed pilots with preferential hiring. Comair does NOT extend the same treatment due to greedy MEC Chairman who uses furloughed pilots as bargaining chips: "we won't help your furloughees unless X, Y, Z..." Delta MEC chairman is very upset. ASA and Delta MECs agree to preferential hiring - IN WRITING. Comair pilots don't get agreement and instead enrage Delta pilots.

Any discussion about changing the scope clause is now moot. You can disagree all you want, but listen to NYRanger (furloughed Delta pilot) above when he says, "We won't forget." I hope the Comair MEC chairman understands the implications of his actions for his constituents...

Spin this any way you want. The fact remains, furloughed pilots were used as bargaining chips - JUST THINK ABOUT IT. How would YOU feel if you were on the other side of the coin?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Lumber Yak:

If Comair and ASA and Delta are not operationally integrated, why doesn't your MEC Chairman trot over to Jet Blue, Airtran, Southwest, Skywest, or Fed Ex with his proposal?

Why are we so special at the wholly owned Connection carriers?

Also, how do you feel about the reasons for your MEC Chairman refusing to engage in negotiations for an objective agreement? How do you feel about his logic?

Apparently your MEC Chairman also puts military pilots ahead of furloghees at Delta, after all that was his reason for refusing to negotiate!

 

[NYRANGERS]

Lumber Yak:

If Comair and ASA and Delta are not operationally integrated, why doesn't your MEC Chairman trot over to Jet Blue, Airtran, Southwest, Skywest, or Fed Ex with his proposal?

Why are we so special at the wholly owned Connection carriers?

Also, how do you feel about the reasons for your MEC Chairman refusing to engage in negotiations for an objective agreement? How do you feel about his logic?

Apparently your MEC Chairman also puts military pilots ahead of furloghees at Delta, after all that was his reason for refusing to negotiate!

Actually this is being discussed. Why cant we try to get a preferential situation with other cariers? Just because comair pilots don't want to work for Delta, doesn't mean another ALPA MEC wont try to secure preferential treatment. I think you will find that us Delta guys and girls have no loyalty towards anyone but the ASA guys and girls. We are going to shop around and see what kind of mutual agreements we can come up with.

Please, no more comments from our "friends" at comair. This is a done deal. You don't want us and we surly don't want you.

 

[flaps30]

Ranger get a job

I'm sure you're gonna find some other regional that will get on their knees for king Delta. You should be more worried about your MEC giving away "your flying". Those senior Delta guys are gonna sell you out, mark my work. When push comes to shove and their pay and retirement are on the line, the regionals will continue to expand and the scope will weaken.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

NYRANGERS,
I swear, you sound like a 2 year old. Grow up.This "you don't want us and we don't want you" CRAP IS REALLY CHILDISH.
Plenty of our pilots will get delta jobs if they want, and your childish tantrum will not change a thing.


The real issue is that our MEC does not have any obligation to help secure future jobs for us, period. Even you can't argue that. There decision making process has absolutely nothing to do with secureing jobs. Every single decision they make has to do with making our careers AS COMAIR PILOTS, let me repeat, AS COMAIR PILOTS, better.
Your MEC came to the meeting with a problem that affects the Delta pilots and our MEC came to the meeting with a problem that affects our pilots. But YOUR rep only wanted to discuss YOUR problem, and launched threats when our rep said it is a two way street.
As long as you have those idiots manning your MEC, nothing will get better for you and those are the facts.

Now, obviously you think it is our MEC's job to seek out job opportunities, or you would not be mad. Please direct me to where that is written in the CB&L'S.tRUTH IS , IT AINT THERE, AND YOU KNOW IT.

We did not put our concerns aside and bow down to your MEC's threats, and THAT is why you all are soooo mad. GET OVER IT!

 

[skydiverdriver]

I think it's so ironic that we are a separate company whenever it might benefit Comair pilots, but we are all one big happy family whenever it might benefit Delta pilots.

The reason ASA hires Delta furloughees is because that has always been their policy. Comair has always had the policy that they must resign first. Nothing has changed, except that the Delta pilots are all upset about this.

Well, when we wanted to discuss a PID with you guys, you wouldn't even talk to us. At least we were willing to meet with your MEC, and still are. I think we took the high road on this deal.