Comair MEC burning bridges with Delta?

[miller22]

Freight,

I have to admit I agree with a large part of your post. Especially when you said, "I've seen those topics and most are pure frustrations by the furloughed crowd." You're absolutely right. Well said.

The only thing I'd like to add is that (speaking for myself, of course) CHQ, ACA and Skywest don't pose a threat to Comair/ASA. Routes are plentiful for the RJ's. Its the ability to acquire aircraft that is the limiting factor in growth of a regional, and right now DALPA is restricting the W/O's ability to grow their fleet. Admittedly contract carriers could stifle growth later, however Comair/ASA will never grow large enough to deal with that problem if they can't solve the more pressing and immediate issue, scope.

Besides, by scoping other airlines, that requires Delta to place their planes on unprofitable (or less profitable) routes to meet scope requirements. Works short-term, but I'm interested long-term. IMHO scope (whether on the sending or receiving end) runs contrary to the laws of economics and is ultimately bad for business. With one exception...Delta mgmt is eating up the anger between the two pilot groups. So in an undeclared battle between Delta pilots and Comair pilots, management wins. Doesn't seem right.

One last thing I think should be said. Even though we don't agree on several issues, I'm impressed and pleasantly suprised with the perception in your posts. Especially with a topic as touchy as this one, it usually gets ugly and personal. Thanx for not taking it there, and in turn keeping me from making the same mistake. A pleasure to disagree with you.

 

[FlyingSig]

Again you answer a question with another question.

That's pretty funny. Have you ever read your own posts?

Hmm... let's see where we stand.

I asked you what other pilot groups did more so then the Delta pilot group. You mentioned donations to the family fund but you didn't say any other way that other pilot groups helped above and beyond what the Delta pilot group did. Is that the answer to my question? Because in this last post you didn't even recognize any of the points I made in my rebuttal.... just curious.....

I asked you (twice actually) if you were on the Comair senority list at the time of the PID. You failed to answer that question (twice) claiming it's irrelivant. Considering how you've been yapping this whole thread about how nobody will anwer your question about the PID I think it's very relavent. My guess is the PID came before your time and you knowingly went to work for Comair anyway. That means you've either been brainwashed or you're an ambulance chaser who accepted employment thinking about the damages section of the lawsuit. However if you were on the senority list prior to the PID, then in my mind it's a valid question - again one that needs to be answered by someone who was around at the time - but if you actually answer my question then I will specualte and offer my opinion in a true fox news fair and balanced way.

If, Comair pilots tried to help Delta pilots get special employment rights given to nobody else,

You mean not giving up their senority number? Yeah, just like the pilots currently flying for your airline that somehow weren't asked to resign their number. It's amazing how many can slip through the cracks when they don't come from Delta.

how can the Delta MEC that won't be there when Delta starts hiring again, guarantee that we will be considered for our generosity?

Since you seem to know which elected officials will be in office and when DAL will hire again perhaps you can set up a booth outside security and tell people's fortunes. Probably suppliment your income nicely. Considering the ASA resolution has become official I think it would be tough to ignore it... but you always have some conspiracy theory.

Of course, you think we should just do it with nothing in return after all you did for us during the strike.

Yes I do think you should do it for nothing in return. Even if you never went on strike I would think this. I don't think you need to pay anybody back (esp. as ungrateful you SDD as an individual seem to be) for benifits received during that time.

Honestly, if your MEC said... no thank, we don't wish to do that... we're a seperate airline... I would've rolled my eyes because of all the "operational intergration" talk, but I would've said fine, that's the way they want to be. But when conditions and negotiations are attached to feeding familes in need, well, I find that rather offensive. Sure... we'll help you feed your family "if".....

 

[General Lee]

Nindiri,

You like to tell people (Lumber Yak) to stay out of this post because he might not be an airline pilot, and then you claim not to fly for ASA, Comair, or Delta......Why do you care about this disagreement? Why don't you stay out? Oh yeah, this is a public forum...ooops. Hypocrite. The key point here is that we Delta pilots (and other ALPA pilots) helped Comair when they needed help during their strike. And now some of our pilots who were unfortunately furloughed MIGHT want to fly at the BOTTOM of Comair's senority list when they are hiring 40-50 a month, but cannot because their MEC is holding them ransome. "Sure, we'll help them, if you give....." You know what we gave them during their strike? MONEY. They used it to eat, pay bills etc. I wrote a check out each month for them. Now they won't help our guys or girls. Nice. That is the point.

Flying Sig,

You have it right. Some people will never understand that they are dealing with people who have families and were not making "the big bucks" when they were furloughed. These are people who want to fly and would not take someone elses Capt slot or senior FO slot---but the BOTTOM slot. It should have been a no brainer that the furloughed people be allowed to take the bottom slot. ASA did the classy thing by offering to help. Comair just pushed themselves away from the Delta "family", and this will be remembered when hiring resumes. Over 3000 pilots were
hired in 5 years from late 1996-2001. To think it won't happen again is naive. Roll the dice boys!!!

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[CRJFlyer]

Wow, I think I should have stayed outta these forums today, they are pretty heated...My previous posts mostly stem from frusration from hearing about this all the time...maybe MEC stuff should be included in religion and politics as things not to discuss in the cockpit, or forums for that matter.....to all those involved I apologize if my blah, blah, bl;ah comments have offended anyone, i realize now this is a sensitive subject...

It would be interesting though what would be said if we were all actually face to face rather than talking behind a computer...

This is an A and B conversation, so I'll C my way out of it..

 

[NYRANGERS]

It would be interesting though what would be said if we were all actually face to face rather than talking behind a computer...

I think it would be no different accept that who evers turn it was to by beers would be out of the next subject.

Take care and fly safe,

NYR

 

[Freight Dog]

Originally posted by miller22
Freight,

I have to admit I agree with a large part of your post. Especially when you said, "I've seen those topics and most are pure frustrations by the furloughed crowd." You're absolutely right. Well said.

The only thing I'd like to add is that (speaking for myself, of course) CHQ, ACA and Skywest don't pose a threat to Comair/ASA. Routes are plentiful for the RJ's. Its the ability to acquire aircraft that is the limiting factor in growth of a regional, and right now DALPA is restricting the W/O's ability to grow their fleet. Admittedly contract carriers could stifle growth later, however Comair/ASA will never grow large enough to deal with that problem if they can't solve the more pressing and immediate issue, scope.

I understand that currently CHQ, ACA and SkyWest may not appear to pose a threat to Comair/ASA, but bear in mind that they are indeed taking flying away from you, which takes away the movement within your ranks. You say that DALPA is restricting the W/O's ability to grow their fleet. I don't know the exact language of Delta's scope restricting your flying, but if it implies DCI to include non-WO's, then the problem lies with CMR/ASA - no scope protection. I don't think DALPA is restricting CMR/ASA only while allowing SKYW, CHQ, and ACA to run unlimited number of pax, however, please correct me if I am wrong.

Besides, by scoping other airlines, that requires Delta to place their planes on unprofitable (or less profitable) routes to meet scope requirements. Works short-term, but I'm interested long-term. IMHO scope (whether on the sending or receiving end) runs contrary to the laws of economics and is ultimately bad for business. With one exception...Delta mgmt is eating up the anger between the two pilot groups. So in an undeclared battle between Delta pilots and Comair pilots, management wins. Doesn't seem right.

I'm not sure if I agree with your view of scope because scope protection in this case would define who flies what where. Instead of SkyWest having a base in SLC for Delta operations flying 50-seat CRJ's, why not make it a CMR base instead? Unprofitable? If it is... I doubt SkyWest would be doing it out of generosity towards Delta. So there is probably money to be made there, and it could be YOU flying it instead of a non-ALPA, non-WO airline.

I most definitely agree that the management is eating up this anger between the pilot groups.

One last thing I think should be said. Even though we don't agree on several issues, I'm impressed and pleasantly suprised with the perception in your posts. Especially with a topic as touchy as this one, it usually gets ugly and personal. Thanx for not taking it there, and in turn keeping me from making the same mistake. A pleasure to disagree with you.

Absolutely, likewise!

 

[CRJFlyer]

NYRANGER,

yeah your probably right....and because my hockey team doesn't even have an owner, your now 2 up on me...

 

[~~~^~~~]

... then the problem lies with CMR/ASA - no scope protection. I don't think DALPA is restricting CMR/ASA only while allowing SKYW, CHQ, and ACA to run unlimited number of pax, however, please correct me if I am wrong. [/B]

ALPA is keeping any of the DCI carriers from being able to negotiate with Delta. ASA and Comair's MEC have both asked ALPA and Delta to engage in negotiations of system wide scope, ALPA refused to allow the Connection MEC's to participate.

Documentation does not yet exist in the public domain that shows that the Delta MEC is responsible for blocking the Connection Carriers MEC's from representing their pilots to theior employer. However, the Delta MEC has in the past tried to differentiate the Connection Carriers to avoid the perception of operational integration that would lead to a single carrier petition.

If Connection pilots were allowed equal representation we could achieve effective scope. ALPA absolutely will not allow that because we might just scope their favored employee group, the Delta pilots!

So don't blame Connection pilots for not having scope. It is the actions of our own union that keep us from having equal representation to our employer.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am a Delta Pilot,

We will get our remaining 737-800's orders back in 2005, and eventually get 90 or 100 seaters---like A318's.

So, to wrap it up, ASA pilots will eventually benefit and Comair guys will continue to hear "Caution Wake Turbulence" as they watch former ASA pilots take off in Delta 767-300's. Got it? The Comair guys should enjoy the 25 or so CR7's for the next 4-5 years during negotiations.

General Lee: But your MD-80's and 88's will be gone by 2009. There are not that many 737-800's on order. Also, my understanding from a fleet planning manager and a Delta V.P. of Ground Ops is that a 90-100 seat jet does not make sense for Delta. The reasoning is that a 90 to 100 seat aircraft requires an entire gate, while three RJ's can be stacked around a single gate. The cost of the gate space makes the 90-100 seater more expensive than a CRJ700 to operate. Also, the costs of having another fleet type are a consideration.

I am an ASA pilot. No, we do not have any sort of preferential hiring at Delta when this draw down is over with. Your preferential hiring has always been military guys and friends of friends of Plato. Bottom line is that our MEC is in contract negotiations and needs contigency funds. ALPA has them by the budget hairs and we are not causing any political trouble for anyone as long as we are living week to week to fund the operation of our MEC.

The Comair MEC Chairman wanted to discuss other areas of mutual concern and your MEC Chairman refused. This was not a situation where the Comair MEC refused anything. The Comair MEC dared to make a counter proposal and apparently did not understand that he was being dictated to by a superior MEC Chairman.

Some how, some where, a few of the Comair pilots feel that maybe they should have equal representation in our union. That means that we negotiate - you know a little give and take.

The Delta MEC Chairman, in all candor, stated that his concern rests with military pilots who should not have to fly RJ's. Maybe he correctly represents the way the majority of your pilots want things to be, but, it does not good for our union when the prevailing concern is for pilots who are not ALPA members and who have yet to fly a single Delta passenger.

No, I don't expect a preferred hiring anything at Delta because my MEC is compliant with your demands. If I ever decide to come over I will have to find a friend of a friend of (Chuck Broome is it now) and base my application on my quals, like anyone else.

Frats...
~~~^~~~

 

[Lumber Yak]

At least Delta pilots are not outraged with ASA's MEC like they are with Comair's MEC. I have spoken with several Delta pilots and they are unanimous - not happy at all. You have to admit, that can't be helpful...

Any good negotiator would consider his/her "BATNA" or Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement. If you have a good BATNA you have great negotiating leverage... Comair's MEC does not have a good BATNA - poor relations with Delta is not good for jumpseating, preferential hiring, etc. Delta's MEC knows that most current Delta pilots would not "desire" to go to Comair unless circumstances warranted it (i.e., being furloughed). However, it is reasonable to say that a fair percentage of Comair pilots would at least like the OPTION to move to Delta. Comair's MEC made a decision that only had one acceptable outcome - compliance (like ASA). By not accomodating furloughees, Comair's MEC has poisoned the water. To think that you could negotiate scope issues by using furloughees as BARGAINING CHIPS is laughable. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.

What type of response did the Comair MEC expect - especially after the monetary support during the strike? When you think about it, the decision seems a bit shortsighted... Using pilots as bargaining chips during tough times - probably not a good option.

 

[Freight Dog]

ALPA is keeping any of the DCI carriers from being able to negotiate with Delta. ASA and Comair's MEC have both asked ALPA and Delta to engage in negotiations of system wide scope, ALPA refused to allow the Connection MEC's to participate.

Documentation does not yet exist in the public domain that shows that the Delta MEC is responsible for blocking the Connection Carriers MEC's from representing their pilots to theior employer. However, the Delta MEC has in the past tried to differentiate the Connection Carriers to avoid the perception of operational integration that would lead to a single carrier petition.

If Connection pilots were allowed equal representation we could achieve effective scope. ALPA absolutely will not allow that because we might just scope their favored employee group, the Delta pilots!

So don't blame Connection pilots for not having scope. It is the actions of our own union that keep us from having equal representation to our employer.

OK, I want to clarify something because I don't understand it. When you say Delta MEC has tried to differentiate the Connection Carriers to avoid perception of operational integration leading to single carrier petition, do you mean single carrier petition for the whole DCI or a single carrier with Delta? I believe that CMR/ASA should be merged into one carrier, and if you manage to do that, it would be easier to obtain scope. You couldn't scope out Delta because that is your parent airline, if you will, and your purpose is to "feed" it. However, you COULD scope SkyWest, CHQ, ACA, and others who are not wholly-owned out of DCI flying.

Isn't this the basic idea of ALPA's BSIC?


Just curious...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Frieght Dog: You raise a good question. The Delta MEC has tried to differentiate Delta from Connection, while ALPA Natl has shown little enthusiasm for combining ASA and Comair. But, I had not really considered that a benefit of an ASA / Comair merger might be scope negotiations with DCI. But, Delta, not DCI, controls flying permitted under Section 1 of your contract, so I am unsure that negotiating with DCI could fix the scope dilemma. I'll have to do some research on that.

The idea behind the BSIC is that it acts as a sunset committee to do nothing while giving the appearance of providing a forum for disgruntled small jet pilots. Just look at the result of the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee. Have they published one word on the impact of scope? No

The only reccommendation that the BSIC put up at the 2002 BOD was a resolution to hold more meeting and continue studying the issues that face ALPA members. Oh, and they also resolved to ignore inconvenient portions of the Constitution and Bylaws by allowing MEC's to meet with each other without the leadership of ALPA National to resolve these problems - hence this meeting with the Comair MEC!

Face it, isn't it silly for Bill Buergey to go to CVG to discuss the hiring of Delta pilots when the decisions are actually made on Virginia Ave in Atlanta? Why does the Delta MEC Chairman have to even waste his time talking to the Comair MEC when Delta decides how many and who Comair hires!

Before you call bull effluvia, think about the Northwestern University scholarships for women and minorities that Delta sponsors. Those "interns" are coming to ASA and Comair and none of our folks interviewed them. It is all a Delta deal.

 

[miller22]

At least Delta pilots are not outraged with ASA's MEC like they are with Comair's MEC. I have spoken with several Delta pilots and they are unanimous - not happy at all. You have to admit, that can't be helpful...

Any good negotiator would consider his/her "BATNA" or Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement. If you have a good BATNA you have great negotiating leverage... Comair's MEC does not have a good BATNA - poor relations with Delta is not good for jumpseating, preferential hiring, etc. Delta's MEC knows that most current Delta pilots would not "desire" to go to Comair unless circumstances warranted it (i.e., being furloughed). However, it is reasonable to say that a fair percentage of Comair pilots would at least like the OPTION to move to Delta. Comair's MEC made a decision that only had one acceptable outcome - compliance (like ASA). By not accomodating furloughees, Comair's MEC has poisoned the water. To think that you could negotiate scope issues by using furloughees as BARGAINING CHIPS is laughable. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.

What type of response did the Comair MEC expect - especially after the monetary support during the strike? When you think about it, the decision seems a bit shortsighted... Using pilots as bargaining chips during tough times - probably not a good option.

You say it exactly how it happened, LumberYak. Delta MEC came to Comair MEC and DEMANDED that Delta furloughees be hired at Comair without resigning their seniority number. In return Delta MEC was willing to offer preferred hiring. What is that supposed to mean anyways, especially coming from a union rep. What are they going to do, tell the interviewers to "look favorably" upon Comair pilots, while at the same time telling them to "look more favorably" upon military pilots? Maybe ASA gave in, but I'd be very interested in hearing actually how many furloughed Delta pilots were hired by ASA, and which of those had already flown at ASA. Comair has the ball in their court, and if DALPA is going to demand things with the threat that if you don't accept what we force-feed you, we'll make things hell for you later, then the Comair MEC can just take his ball and go home. The great irony of the meeting is that the Delta MEC was the one who lost his cool and stormed out.
DALPA wants something from Comair, that Comair (mgmt) isn't ready to give. And preferential hiring at Delta is not a deal-maker for Comair mgmt, so you have to offer something they want. So far scope remains the most restrictive negotiating item. Make it worth Comair's while to hire pilots who are guaranteed to leave just when they most need pilots, and you'll see this all fade away. But when you don't get something for nothing, don't cry foul because the Comair MEC wasn't strong-armed like DALPA expected.

 

[DAL737FO]

Miller22,

I doubt seriously that the Dalpa MEC DEMANDED anything. I suppose you were there when it happened, or are you falling prey to what usually turns out to be Urban legends later on. This thread is getting old, and going no where, you guys do have the ball in your court right now. You are hiring at record rates and taking RJ deliveries at record rates. Good for you. I'd like to see how you and ASA fight for the 57-70 seaters that are not Force Majuerable in the Delta contract. That's right boys and girls the only people that are going to suffer at Comair are the young girls/guys that want and desire to fly something bigger or make more money later on in their careers. I have to agree with CRJFlyer on the issue that this is only leading to more bad blood for years to come and my time would/will be better spent doing other things.

Have fun,

Furloughed DAL737FO

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Delta Pilots,
Are all you really serious about all this? What the heck do you think an MEC's job is? I can tell you this, finding me a job at Delta is NOT part of it. It was there DUTY to bring up those issues when your MEC met with them. There only purpose in life is to better our careers AS COMAIR PILOTS through ALPA.
You MEC knows this, we all know this. We pay them to do this. Look it up, show me where it says they should seek flying opportunities at other airlines thru preff hiring agreements. It aint there, and you all know it.
It was an ambush plane and simple. Look at the way they announced to you guys 2 weeks before it happened that they were going to ask them for support for preff. hiring. They knew that if our MEC did what they were put in office to do, they would bring up matters such as scope. I find it shameful and unprofessional what your MEC did. It was pure politics straight from the DNC play book.

Our MEC did what any MEC SHOULD of done. They went to the meeting to represent the Comair pilots first and foremost. They are first concerned about our pilots as COMAIR PILOTS, not Comait pilots WHO MAY ONE DAY BE DELTA pILOTS.