skydiverdriver
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Comair MEC burning bridges with Delta?
- Thread starter Lumber Yak
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Caveman
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General Lee wrote:
"There was talk about a staple way back when, but your senior guys wanted date of hire senority. None of our 10,000 pilots at the time wanted that. The senior guys at Comair and ASA ruined it for everyone else by requesting that."
Not true. Provide just one document from any official Comair/ASA source that requested/demanded/asked for a DOH merge. This is one of the lies that has been passed around so much people now think that it's a true statement. All our MEC asked for was a PID. That means we felt that the lists should have been merged and we wanted the normal sequence of events to take place that would have had the union look at it and then attempt to provide a fair and equitable combined list WITH NO WINDFALL FOR ANY GROUP. The PID was denied out of hand. No one ever officially discussed how the lists should have been merged. I grant you that there were lots of folks on various message boards discussing how they would like to see it done, but that was nothing more than a barroom argument and it wasn't from any official ASA/Comair source. Please don't continue to promulgate that rumor any longer. It serves no purpose other than to be devisive and on it's face it is patently untrue.
"There was talk about a staple way back when, but your senior guys wanted date of hire senority. None of our 10,000 pilots at the time wanted that. The senior guys at Comair and ASA ruined it for everyone else by requesting that."
Not true. Provide just one document from any official Comair/ASA source that requested/demanded/asked for a DOH merge. This is one of the lies that has been passed around so much people now think that it's a true statement. All our MEC asked for was a PID. That means we felt that the lists should have been merged and we wanted the normal sequence of events to take place that would have had the union look at it and then attempt to provide a fair and equitable combined list WITH NO WINDFALL FOR ANY GROUP. The PID was denied out of hand. No one ever officially discussed how the lists should have been merged. I grant you that there were lots of folks on various message boards discussing how they would like to see it done, but that was nothing more than a barroom argument and it wasn't from any official ASA/Comair source. Please don't continue to promulgate that rumor any longer. It serves no purpose other than to be devisive and on it's face it is patently untrue.
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Delta needs to look within
I see the DAL guys are whining about Comair not allowing them jobs without giving up their numbers, yet they see nothing wrong with their own MEC giving us up to 49% of their flying. The junior DAL guys are getting sold out and the blame is directed toward a handfull of low paying jobs few would take anyway. Whats next relaxing the 70 seat cap, and the 90 seater ? If I were junior at Delta I would worry about my own house burning down instead of tearing down the regionals.
I see the DAL guys are whining about Comair not allowing them jobs without giving up their numbers, yet they see nothing wrong with their own MEC giving us up to 49% of their flying. The junior DAL guys are getting sold out and the blame is directed toward a handfull of low paying jobs few would take anyway. Whats next relaxing the 70 seat cap, and the 90 seater ? If I were junior at Delta I would worry about my own house burning down instead of tearing down the regionals.
Lumber Yak
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- Aug 28, 2002
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RJcap,
You can shift blame all you want - the real issue is how furluoghed Delta pilots are being treated... Comair continues to hire pilots but refuses to consider Delta pilots on a preferential basis - insists that they resign their seniority numbers... Doesn't Delta own Comair? ASA is helpful and Comair is not.
Fact: Comair MEC's refusal to consider furloughed Delta pilots for hiring has hurt its relationship with the Delta MEC. Most Delta pilots are outraged considering the help Delta pilots provided during the unsuccessful Comair strike. Furloughed pilots are being used as bargaining chips.
Result: Comair pilots will receive no preferential treatement for Delta hiring in the future (although ASA pilots will receive such treatment). If you are a junior Comair pilot with aspirations of flying for Delta one day (maybe years down the line), you should not be happy with your elected MEC and their actions.
You can shift blame all you want - the real issue is how furluoghed Delta pilots are being treated... Comair continues to hire pilots but refuses to consider Delta pilots on a preferential basis - insists that they resign their seniority numbers... Doesn't Delta own Comair? ASA is helpful and Comair is not.
Fact: Comair MEC's refusal to consider furloughed Delta pilots for hiring has hurt its relationship with the Delta MEC. Most Delta pilots are outraged considering the help Delta pilots provided during the unsuccessful Comair strike. Furloughed pilots are being used as bargaining chips.
Result: Comair pilots will receive no preferential treatement for Delta hiring in the future (although ASA pilots will receive such treatment). If you are a junior Comair pilot with aspirations of flying for Delta one day (maybe years down the line), you should not be happy with your elected MEC and their actions.
skydiverdriver
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General Lee
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Ok, here I go again.
Caveman: How do I know the senior guys wanted date of hire seniority? Because I was there. ASA's number 1 pilot ( I believe he is in charge of the CRJ program now) told me on a jumpseat from CLE to ATL in 1998 that he believed he would finish out his career as a Captain on the 737-800 flying to Central and South America from ATL---as a Delta Captain---and he was in his upper 50's then. ASA's MEC told people he thought he could "slip in" to MD-11 FO seat from his CRJ Capt. spot. Then there was the "jumping up and down" of the whole pilot group when they thought they were going to get ALPA's senority merging policy in mid 1999. I saw it---they were all jumping up and down with glee until they realized that it would not happen. A lot of what your PID etc said was to use certain ratios etc to make it fair. Guess what? Going from a CRJ Capt to a 767FO over top people that interviewed is not right, and it would have been a winfall. Look at the salary differences----a 2nd year MD88 FO makes more than a 12 year RJ Capt. That is the way it is---good or bad.
9RJ9:
First of all, the 49% number is wrong. The actual number is 44%, and if Delta were hurting that bad to move it to 49%, Comair and ASA would likely be sold off. Delta has $2.6 Billion in cash and another $2 Billion it could mortage if needed. You won't see your 49%. The reason the MEC set it at 44% is to set the bar again.
They will not renegotiate a number again for several years, giving us time to reorganize and prepare for the next contract. As far as the MEC selling us out or whatever, we had a no furlough clause that seemed acceptable, and nobady saw 9-11 coming. You have to admit, as I have already, that unfortunately 9-11 did cause major harm to all of us, and our company had to furlough some high paying people---pilots. Ok, fine. The arbitrator in our current case said back in May of last year that he allowed it because "people were scared to fly." Well, he is now reviewing that and should come up with a new order soon. The clause in our contract stated that regardless of the economy or unprofitability of Delta---No furloughs. People aren't scared to fly, they are scared to buy expensive tickets. That is not our fault, and our pilots will return sooner than later. Then we will hire again, and there will be a lot of people who will not forget how Comair WAS NOT there for us, like we were there for YOU during YOUR UNSUCCESSFUL STRIKE. None of you ever respond to that. I never heard a thank you. I paid a lot of money to help you, and now you can't help my friends that are furloughed. Thanks a lot.
RJCAP: So, you think our furloughed guys or girls have "ruined carrers?" I fly with a lot of 767 Capt's that were with Western and were furloughed in the 80's for up to 7 years. They now make more than 5 of your Captains combined. Were they ruined?
I think that was a cocky remark. I bet our furloughed people love reading that they are "ruined." They were caught up in something unbeleiveable (9-11), and they will eventually come back and be secure again. I haven't forgot about them, and I think they will not forget about what Comair's MEC thinks about them.
Spinproof: Thanks for playing. I am glad you don't work for Comair----I couldn't believe I spent money for someone like you slamming people out of work. That's all for now.
Bye Bye---General Lee
Caveman: How do I know the senior guys wanted date of hire seniority? Because I was there. ASA's number 1 pilot ( I believe he is in charge of the CRJ program now) told me on a jumpseat from CLE to ATL in 1998 that he believed he would finish out his career as a Captain on the 737-800 flying to Central and South America from ATL---as a Delta Captain---and he was in his upper 50's then. ASA's MEC told people he thought he could "slip in" to MD-11 FO seat from his CRJ Capt. spot. Then there was the "jumping up and down" of the whole pilot group when they thought they were going to get ALPA's senority merging policy in mid 1999. I saw it---they were all jumping up and down with glee until they realized that it would not happen. A lot of what your PID etc said was to use certain ratios etc to make it fair. Guess what? Going from a CRJ Capt to a 767FO over top people that interviewed is not right, and it would have been a winfall. Look at the salary differences----a 2nd year MD88 FO makes more than a 12 year RJ Capt. That is the way it is---good or bad.
9RJ9:
First of all, the 49% number is wrong. The actual number is 44%, and if Delta were hurting that bad to move it to 49%, Comair and ASA would likely be sold off. Delta has $2.6 Billion in cash and another $2 Billion it could mortage if needed. You won't see your 49%. The reason the MEC set it at 44% is to set the bar again.
They will not renegotiate a number again for several years, giving us time to reorganize and prepare for the next contract. As far as the MEC selling us out or whatever, we had a no furlough clause that seemed acceptable, and nobady saw 9-11 coming. You have to admit, as I have already, that unfortunately 9-11 did cause major harm to all of us, and our company had to furlough some high paying people---pilots. Ok, fine. The arbitrator in our current case said back in May of last year that he allowed it because "people were scared to fly." Well, he is now reviewing that and should come up with a new order soon. The clause in our contract stated that regardless of the economy or unprofitability of Delta---No furloughs. People aren't scared to fly, they are scared to buy expensive tickets. That is not our fault, and our pilots will return sooner than later. Then we will hire again, and there will be a lot of people who will not forget how Comair WAS NOT there for us, like we were there for YOU during YOUR UNSUCCESSFUL STRIKE. None of you ever respond to that. I never heard a thank you. I paid a lot of money to help you, and now you can't help my friends that are furloughed. Thanks a lot.
RJCAP: So, you think our furloughed guys or girls have "ruined carrers?" I fly with a lot of 767 Capt's that were with Western and were furloughed in the 80's for up to 7 years. They now make more than 5 of your Captains combined. Were they ruined?
I think that was a cocky remark. I bet our furloughed people love reading that they are "ruined." They were caught up in something unbeleiveable (9-11), and they will eventually come back and be secure again. I haven't forgot about them, and I think they will not forget about what Comair's MEC thinks about them.
Spinproof: Thanks for playing. I am glad you don't work for Comair----I couldn't believe I spent money for someone like you slamming people out of work. That's all for now.
Bye Bye---General Lee
You can say that again. My career isn't even close to being ruined. Set back...yes ruined....no. It took me close to 7 months but I'm back flying and I got another company paid type rating to boot (G1159). Delta will stick around. Matter of fact compared to the rest of the hub and spoke industry we are doing quite well. I'll be back and I'll remember this for the future. This has been quite the learning experience.
GII/GIII FO
formerly DAL737FO
GII/GIII FO
formerly DAL737FO
MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
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Lumber Yak
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General Lee
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YAK,
We at Delta are trying to help our furloughees by atleast paying for their Cobra payments. A lot of us have tried to do more and regardless have not forgotten about them. We are trying to get them back as soon as possible, and believe that Delta will be in relatively good shape to do so soon.
DAL737FO,
It is good you got a temporary job so quickly, and soon you will be back as DAL767FO or DAL777FO. I know you will not forget the Comair MEC's remarks. Good luck.
Metrosherrif,
Thank you for your continued support.
Bye Bye----General Lee
We at Delta are trying to help our furloughees by atleast paying for their Cobra payments. A lot of us have tried to do more and regardless have not forgotten about them. We are trying to get them back as soon as possible, and believe that Delta will be in relatively good shape to do so soon.
DAL737FO,
It is good you got a temporary job so quickly, and soon you will be back as DAL767FO or DAL777FO. I know you will not forget the Comair MEC's remarks. Good luck.
Metrosherrif,
Thank you for your continued support.
Bye Bye----General Lee
how are you helping ?
I hear you say you're helping, but resetting the scope to 44%/49% ? What did the Delta Mec really get for that ? Some back room deal with the senior guys not to take pay cuts ? What was it ? Now you jump up and down about a few low paying jobs few would take. So tell us, what did Delta get for the scope reset ?
I hear you say you're helping, but resetting the scope to 44%/49% ? What did the Delta Mec really get for that ? Some back room deal with the senior guys not to take pay cuts ? What was it ? Now you jump up and down about a few low paying jobs few would take. So tell us, what did Delta get for the scope reset ?
skydiverdriver
Senior Member
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Yak, General and Metro,
I'm very appreciative of all the money you sent us. However, compared to what other airlines gave, the Delta pilots assistance was minimal. I'm still appreciative, but please think about what impact this money had on our management. Do you think they said, "oh, look, Delta pilots are giving money to Comair's fund, we better give them what they want." Probably not. What we needed was real help, not support. We should have been all in this together, ASA, Delta and Comair.
Again, I'm appreciative of all the money you sent, but since you say our strike was unsuccessful, then I really can't afford to help your guys as much as you could help ours.
On another matter, nobody still wants to try to answer my question. Are you afraid to try?
I'm very appreciative of all the money you sent us. However, compared to what other airlines gave, the Delta pilots assistance was minimal. I'm still appreciative, but please think about what impact this money had on our management. Do you think they said, "oh, look, Delta pilots are giving money to Comair's fund, we better give them what they want." Probably not. What we needed was real help, not support. We should have been all in this together, ASA, Delta and Comair.
Again, I'm appreciative of all the money you sent, but since you say our strike was unsuccessful, then I really can't afford to help your guys as much as you could help ours.
On another matter, nobody still wants to try to answer my question. Are you afraid to try?
General Lee
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9rj9,
How do you know few pilots would take "low paying jobs" at Comair? IF I were in that situation, I would take it. I enjoy flying and I made a lot less than your first year guys make now when I started out in the regionals. You haven't even given them a chance to interview. ASA has only hired 13 Delta guys, but they are limited now due to the retirement of their Brasilias, and we are pleased they offered it atleast. Comair on the otherhand has slapped us in the face.
What did our MEC really get from Delta? I don't really know. I think he realized that his negotiators screwed up when they put in the contract that Delta could renegotiate the block hour limits after only 2 losing quarters in a row---something that could happen easily. I think he wanted to do something to stop the increase, and by setting a new number (44%), he did that. The 49% is a drastic fallback that all of us DON'T want to see---you included. If that happens, we may all be out of a job. Don't you guys like the increase? You went from 36% to 44% of the total of our flying. That is pretty good. The one thing we got was the hope that our eventual codeshare with NW/CO will bring back a certain number of pilots---according to Delta's own numbers concerning manning--- which should be about 1100 by 2005. Ofcourse the arbitrator hopefully will bring them back sooner.
Skydiverdriver,
Minimal assistance, huh? We gave money along with not flying struck work. What else could we have done? Tell me. Should we have stopped flying all together? I think a judge would have seen that and fined us and the President would have done something also. He didn't let us strike for our contract. So, we gave you money---which according to you was minimal. Do you think our furloughed guys wish they could get some money? We do pay for their Cobra, which is the least we could do. We have almost as many furloughed guys out as you have pilots total. How about helping them out? Oh, that's right---you said you can't afford to help them. I guess allowing them to sit at the bottom of your list would really hurt you financially, especially when you are hiring 45-50 a month. What a joke. And you said we are afraid to try? Try what? I didn't complain about writing a check out each month to help you guys because I wanted you to win. I flew for a regional too. Now we have over 1000 guys out of work, and your MEC doesn't care. This is another example of how the top 100 guys in senority hurt the chances of the bottom 1300. That is too bad.
Bye Bye--General Lee
How do you know few pilots would take "low paying jobs" at Comair? IF I were in that situation, I would take it. I enjoy flying and I made a lot less than your first year guys make now when I started out in the regionals. You haven't even given them a chance to interview. ASA has only hired 13 Delta guys, but they are limited now due to the retirement of their Brasilias, and we are pleased they offered it atleast. Comair on the otherhand has slapped us in the face.
What did our MEC really get from Delta? I don't really know. I think he realized that his negotiators screwed up when they put in the contract that Delta could renegotiate the block hour limits after only 2 losing quarters in a row---something that could happen easily. I think he wanted to do something to stop the increase, and by setting a new number (44%), he did that. The 49% is a drastic fallback that all of us DON'T want to see---you included. If that happens, we may all be out of a job. Don't you guys like the increase? You went from 36% to 44% of the total of our flying. That is pretty good. The one thing we got was the hope that our eventual codeshare with NW/CO will bring back a certain number of pilots---according to Delta's own numbers concerning manning--- which should be about 1100 by 2005. Ofcourse the arbitrator hopefully will bring them back sooner.
Skydiverdriver,
Minimal assistance, huh? We gave money along with not flying struck work. What else could we have done? Tell me. Should we have stopped flying all together? I think a judge would have seen that and fined us and the President would have done something also. He didn't let us strike for our contract. So, we gave you money---which according to you was minimal. Do you think our furloughed guys wish they could get some money? We do pay for their Cobra, which is the least we could do. We have almost as many furloughed guys out as you have pilots total. How about helping them out? Oh, that's right---you said you can't afford to help them. I guess allowing them to sit at the bottom of your list would really hurt you financially, especially when you are hiring 45-50 a month. What a joke. And you said we are afraid to try? Try what? I didn't complain about writing a check out each month to help you guys because I wanted you to win. I flew for a regional too. Now we have over 1000 guys out of work, and your MEC doesn't care. This is another example of how the top 100 guys in senority hurt the chances of the bottom 1300. That is too bad.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I haven't stopped them...
Just like the DAL MEC caving and raising the block hour limit without a vote, Comair MEC said no to support DAL hiring. I didn't get to vote either. I along with a majority of Comair pilots would support the DAL guys coming here. You know the drill, the top 10% rules the roost. It's a political posturing, RJDC, scope, strike, ect. from both sides.
Just like the DAL MEC caving and raising the block hour limit without a vote, Comair MEC said no to support DAL hiring. I didn't get to vote either. I along with a majority of Comair pilots would support the DAL guys coming here. You know the drill, the top 10% rules the roost. It's a political posturing, RJDC, scope, strike, ect. from both sides.
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