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Comair exit poll

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JI Gone OH said:
Companies don't sit idle, they either grow or shrink. This is a way for us to continue in the what I would consider to be the right direction.

Please tell me why you think that you as a pilot group are responsible for that growth.. How do you figure that you taking concessions will secure growth.. Is is not your managments job to secure growth. Especially when you are wholly owned.. You are not skywest or chitaco.. You are embraced by mother delta a wholly owned company.
 
av8tor4239 said:
How do you figure that you taking concessions will secure growth..

The proposed L.O.A. (which I have right in front of me) states that we will take delivery and put into revenue service an ADDITIONAL thirty-five aircraft as follows:

1. By December 31, 2006, we will have acquired an additional 18 aircraft, including at least 8 certified at no less than 70 seats. It further states that the fleet shall consist of and will be maintained at no less than 182 aircraft by December 31, 2006.

2. By December 31, 2007, we will have acquired an additional 26 aircraft, including at least 16 certified at no less than 70 seats. It further states that the fleet shall consist of and will be maintained at no less than 190 aircraft by December 31, 2007.

3. In concludes to say that we will have acquired all 35 ADDITIONAL aircraft by March 31, 2008.

Now I have paraphrased a bit so as to not bore you with the language. Our fleet now sits idle at 164 aircraft. There is verbage that allows them to temporarily reduce the fleet size to 193 aircraft (I am assuming that is for maintenance reasons), but I gave you the bulk of it.

Seems pretty black and white to me. Hope this helps...
 
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Just watch out for that pesky force majeur' clause.

We had:

#1. Minimum block hours
#2. Minimum captain positions
#3. Minimum fleet size
#4. Successorship language
#5. and No-Furlough language

in the US Airways contract prior to 09/11 and they were still able to furlough the first 1149 pilots due to a force majeur trigger event.
 
FurloughedAgain said:
Just watch out for that pesky force majeur' clause.

We had:

#1. Minimum block hours
#2. Minimum captain positions
#3. Minimum fleet size
#4. Successorship language
#5. and No-Furlough language

in the US Airways contract prior to 09/11 and they were still able to furlough the first 1149 pilots due to a force majeur trigger event.

There are always loop holes aren't there. How are things with you Bro? ;-)
 
C425Driver said:
Just a few thoughts here.

Second, for those of you who think that the new pay matrix will sustain us as the highest paid regional pilots, you are mistaken. A couple of pilots posted the figures on the CMR APLA message boards. Here's a summary:

The pay example given to us in the LOA shows the pay for a current 5 year Captain. A 5 year Captain will earn 68.13/hr and will be frozen at that rate. When the freeze is over in June 2007, this Captain will go to the next longevity step, or 6 year pay (70.23/hr).

If you compare our 6 year pay to other 6 year pay rates for our peer airlines in 2007, we are indeed at the top of the industry pay rates.

But wait! If you don't drink the Cool Aid, you will realize that the 6 year pay rate at Comair will only come after 8 YEARS OF SERVICE! Compare the pay rate for 8 YOS at Comair to 8 YOS at our peer airlines in 2007 and we are almost at the bottom of the industry for pay rates. Don't let JC and Freddy Krueger fool you into thinking that our pay will be somthing to aspire to.

C425Driver

2 Curious Questions:

1) When the freeze is over in 6/07, do all pilots get immediately bumped up to the next longevity step, or do you still wait till your anniversary hire date? Let's say for example a pilot hired in December. According to your example, would that pilot still be making $68.13 till December, then, finally go to $70.23?

2) Also, what would today's 5-year captain be making in June 2007, if the freeze did NOT happen, and you continued to get both longevity Date of Service increases AND contractual yearly increases?
 
Beer? Yes, please. And keep 'em coming.

I've plopped down behind the bar on many an overnight (with more than 12 hours, of course) and had a beer (or 6) with other flight crews. I sat next to a Mesa FO who was happy to have to be flying but loathing his contract. Nice guy. And I didn't tell him he was a piece of dirt for voting on that contract. I don't care how he voted.

I sat with some XJET guys and gave them an "at-a-boy" for their new contract. They still had issues with it, as a matter of fact, the captain had voted no. But, guess what -- I didn't care about that either. I've run into other XJET folks and have had them give the Comair group a collective at-a-boy.

They voted for their own reasons, and at the end of the day, I still have a job. I've read the posts on this thread and many are rediculous. As mentioned in an earlier post or few posts (I forget), we now know who are friends are. No one. If you signed on to work for your company with your current contract or voted yes for your contract, don't complain to me about it -- again, I don't care. You made your choice. Wave our contract around, pound your chest, and accept something less, then you're the fool. America West voted on a contract that passed by something in the low 50's, lets say 53%. Well, 47% of the guys there probably weren't too happy... the pitfalls of democracy. Point is, you don't get to choose our future, unless you're one of us.

If WE, and I'm not talking just me, vote NO, I will be happy to be part of this Comair pilot group. My pay will stay first rate (not that I care what you make, I don't), my contract will stay first rate, eventually my airline might shrink, and I may be furloughed. I will not be the first furlough, but I will most likely get the axe eventually. By then, hopefully, I will have had the foresight to have found another job. But, it will have been an honor to have flown with one of the only pilot groups with a sack.

If WE, and I'm not talking just me, vote YES I will be happy to be part of this pilot group. We'll get some planes, some upgrades (and yes that affects my future), some job security/new jobs for folks on the street, and the bottom line at Delta will be helped by a puny amount. And I hope one of you has the guts to come up to me and tell me I should be ashamed to be a part of this pilot group. You can post it here all day long, because I pretty much don't have time to look at this board... but, please, please, if it does pass, please come tell me to my face that you think we're a joke. 'Cause then the beer will be on you (and I hope you have another shirt -- nah that's alcohol abuse, and a waste of 3 bucks, forget it -- I'll throw the bar snacks at you).

Whatever the case, it is our decision. Individually at first, then as a group. It is quite clear to me that I shouldn't worry about having friends (in airline terms) because it is evident we have no support. We have ASA pilots bashing us and Delta "share the pain" and "you didn't hire our furloughs" pilots calling us names too. Maybe it's Atlanta, I don't know, but thanks for the words of wisdom and support. Take care.

And if you really do care, the general buzz around flight line (not the exit poll) is pretty much NO. Or the YES people are being awfully quiet. We'll see next week I imagine. By the way (and these are honest questions - not flame attempts), if you guys at ASA are that darn unified, then why haven't you already struck? You guys were saying a year or so ago that December '04 was your plan, right? At least some progress -- how long have you guys been working on this contract?
 
For Delta/comair/asa Pilots

ITS SAD THAT U GUYS HAVE TO TAKE PAYCUTS IN ORDER TO GROW BUT IN MY OPINION ITS WORTH IT. THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY IN THE U.S. IS THE WAY IT IS AND ITS NOT FUN WATCHING YOUR WH@RE COUNTERPARTS TAKE FLYING THAT SHOULD BE DONE BY DELTA. THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING IT WOULD BE WISE FOR THE PILOT GROUPS AT DELTA,COMAIR,ASA TO INTEGRATE. OTHERWISE THERE WILL BE ANOTHER USAIRWAYS PANDEMIC AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT A MESS IT IS OVER THERE-UNFORTUNATELY FOR ALL THOSE WONDERFUL PEOPLE WHO WORK THERE. THE WORD WH@RE WAS REFERENCED TO THE CHIHUHUA TYPES. COMPARE THEM WITH THE COMAIR /ASA PILOTS AND YOULL SEE WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT. SECOND CLASS AIRLINE PILOTS-THE CHIHUHUA PILOTS. HOW CAN THEY EVEN BE PROUD OF THEMSELVES.
 
Flying Horses said:
2 Curious Questions:

1) When the freeze is over in 6/07, do all pilots get immediately bumped up to the next longevity step, or do you still wait till your anniversary hire date? Let's say for example a pilot hired in December. According to your example, would that pilot still be making $68.13 till December, then, finally go to $70.23?

2) Also, what would today's 5-year captain be making in June 2007, if the freeze did NOT happen, and you continued to get both longevity Date of Service increases AND contractual yearly increases?



1. If I understand the LOA correctly, when the freeze is over we all all move to the next longevity step and we will not wait for our anniversary. So in the example that you are asking about, the pilot would go to 70.23 in June. Also, if we do not have a new contract in place by Jan 1, 2008, the company will give us all a whole 2% raise. Golly!

2. If the freeze doesn't happen, todays 5 year captain will be an 8 year captain in June 2007. The rate would be 78.01 (instead of the 70.23 that Freddy is offering). That's almost a 10% cut in what we were supposed to make.

Thanks Fred!

C425Driver
 
With the cut ASA is Comair -1%. Coincidence?

What makes you think there will not be another cut?

Why do you guys trust Buttrell to provide airplanes? Does Buttrell run Delta?

Doesn't anyone there realize that ASA and CHQ are at their full capacity to train pilots. Why do you Comair pilots believe that concessions are necessary for growth?
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Why do you guys trust Buttrell to provide airplanes? Does Buttrell run Delta?

I don't believe trust has anything to do with it. If the planes do not come, the original contract remains intact, does it not? Am I missing something when you imply that "trust" is what the vote is about? I thought the vote was on a legal contract with obligations on both sides to hold up.
 
CF34-3B1 said:
I'm thinking a lot of the yes votes weren't on the property during the strike.

And I KNOW a lot of the yes voters who have been on property from 6 to 16 years. Your "thinking" does not have any basis in fact. I personally know a lot of senior Comair pilots who have voted yes, and they also voted to strike in 2001. The battle star stays.
 
Biatch

QUIT UR WINING U GUYS WERE NOT THE FIRST ONES TO STRIKE IN THE HISTORY OF THE AIRLINE BUSINESS SO QUIT UR FU@#KIN BULLSH!T ABOUT THE PILOTS NEW PILOTS BEING THERE DURING THE STRIKE AND U DONT OWN THE FU$#KIN AIRLINE. EVERYONES VOTE IS EQUAL PRESTRIKE OR NOT
 
STOP YELLING!!!!!!!
 
brokea$$pilot said:
QUIT UR WINING U GUYS WERE NOT THE FIRST ONES TO STRIKE IN THE HISTORY OF THE AIRLINE BUSINESS SO QUIT UR FU@#KIN BULLSH!T ABOUT THE PILOTS NEW PILOTS BEING THERE DURING THE STRIKE AND U DONT OWN THE FU$#KIN AIRLINE. EVERYONES VOTE IS EQUAL PRESTRIKE OR NOT

I'm glad we could hear from the intellectual side of the group.
 
I see DW's "brand scope" is having it's desired effect. Duane and Fred have managed to divide the last remaining solidarity in ALPA. The CMR pilots are evenly split. The CMR MEC is split. The ASA and CMR MECs are split... and to top things off Fins and Surplus are sparing.

Folks what we have here is the final stage of ALPA's failure. If the CMR and ASA pilots can't keep it together, then there is no way that ALPA can put this genie back in the bottle.

"Collective bargaining" and "bidding" as independent contractors are incompatable. When will we learn? Watch for the trend to continue.

To my fellow ASA pilots who are so quick to judge the CMR pilots, I would simply ask that you let them make their decision and support them in whatever decision they make. They must do what is best for CMR, just as we must do what is best for ASA.

To those who want to lecture about "holding up the bar" and "defending the profession", maybe you are confusing ALPA with a trade union.

"Brand Scope" my A$$
 
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InclusiveScope said:
To my fellow ASA pilots who are so quick to judge the CMR pilots, I would simply ask that you let them make their decision and support them in whatever decision they make. They must do what is best for CMR, just as we must do what is best for ASA.

:( WHAT! :(

Comair pilots nuke the unity with ASA pilots and you say live and let live? Why do you hold Comair pilots to a different standard than the Delta pilots? You can blame ALPA, blame the Delta MEC, blame the Comair MEC ( ALPA will ), blame brand scope, blame the market -

At the end of the day if the Comair pilots ratify the agreement they own the agreement.​


The Comair pilots are responsible for their actions and if they agree with ALPA's representational and bargaining practice ( in cohoots with Delta management ) then I understand who is to blame.

The Delta pilots never promised us their unity. The Comair pilots did and the ASA pilots entered into a union. There is a reason why Benedict Arnold is hated and Lord Howe is an unknown.
 
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InclusiveScope said:
I see DW's "brand scope" is having it's desired effect. Duane and Fred have managed to divide the last remaining solidarity in ALPA. The CMR pilots are evenly split. The CMR MEC is split. The ASA and CMR MECs are split... and to top things off Fins and Surplus are sparing.

Folks what we have here is the final stage of ALPA's failure. If the CMR and ASA pilots can't keep it together, then there is no way that ALPA can put this genie back in the bottle.

"Collective bargaining" and "bidding" as independent contractors are incompatable. When will we learn? Watch for the trend to continue.

To my fellow ASA pilots who are so quick to judge the CMR pilots, I would simply ask that you let them make their decision and support them in whatever decision they make. They must do what is best for CMR, just as we must do what is best for ASA.

To those who want to lecture about "holding up the bar" and "defending the profession", maybe you are confusing ALPA with a trade union.

"Brand Scope" my A$$


The market is determining your pay, not ALPA. Quit crying. I wish ALPA would have "claimed" all multi-engine flying for the legacies back in the early 60's...... I also wish the Moon was made of cheese..... What else do you want Inclusive scope? You really whine a lot.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
~~~^~~~ said:

Well, at least something good is coming of all this. The RJDC supporters are all at each other's throats. At least I can take solace in the breakdown of the RJDC.
 
General Lee said:
The market is determining your pay, not ALPA.

Bye Bye--General Lee
General - do the math. The pay difference is not significant. This is not market driven, the only thing getting driven to market is the fattened up pigs at Comair. An airline with a gutless pilot group makes a better impression on Wall Street.
 
PCL_128 said:
Well, at least something good is coming of all this. The RJDC supporters are all at each other's throats. At least I can take solace in the breakdown of the RJDC.
This is not an RJDC issue and the RJDC effort will continue. If anything, the RJDC warned people that this could happen as a result of ALPA's representational failure.

Supporters like me are extreemly disappointed that supporters like Surplus 1 have turned their back on the issues that they proffered and supported. That does not change the fact that ALPA needs repair. If anything this horrible failure just illustrates the great need for reform.
 
JI Gone OH said:
And as I have said in previous posts, I don't believe for a minute that we will get the airplanes if we say No. Fred can't reward us for telling him to pack sand. If I were on the outside looking in, I might feel as strongly as you did about this. At present, COMAIR has zero (0) growth airplanes on order and quite frankly that concerns me. Companies don't sit idle, they either grow or shrink.

Management does not "reward" pilots by buying new airplanes. They buy and aquire new aircraft in order to increase their revenues and profits, the more aircraft flying, the more money an airline makes (as long as there is demand for them). Delta has determined the demand and need for more regional jets, namely 70-seaters. They have already inked a deal with CHQ, allowing CHQ to operate 16 EMB 170's. These aircraft are to be put into service slowly over the next 2 years. This is all that CHQ can afford and logistically put into service. Also, there is a limit to how much flying can be flown for Delta because of their other airline affiliations. In other words, CHQ will not be getting any more jets for Delta for a while. Also, ASA has already got their allotment of orders and logistically cannot receive more at the present time. That leaves Comair. Delta needs Comair to operate more jets, and they will get them.

Comair can aquire new aircraft and will make a nice profit on each one they operate, no matter that the pilots make a little more than others. However, Delta/Comair have been trying to lower their labor costs for a long time, in order to make even more profit. Lowering the labor costs at Comair will, in turn, lower their labor costs at ASA and allow them to demand cheaper contracts from other airline partners.

A deal between Delta and Comair has probably been already made, just not made publicly, although Embraer's stock has already gone up due to an imminent order from Delta/Comair. But, before officially making this deal, they figure why not try to get concessions from the pilots (and FA's) first. They figure pilots will think in order to get new airplanes, they must lower their pay; in other words, fool them. Delta/Comair will get concessions, the planes will come, and everybody will be happy. This way Delta/Comair can kill two birds with one stone: They get new airplanes to increase their revenue, and get a lower labor cost structure from Comair and all their airline partners.

You state that companies don't sit idle, they grow. You're right, and Comair will grow because they are a critical part of Delta's system. Comair has had the highest paid pilots for a long time now, and has been receiving new aircraft and making a nice profit. Currently, they have no aircraft on order, and everyone else does, so logically it is Comair's turn. Delta wants more regional jets and needs Comair to fly them, thus they will get them. Delta is not going to just never allot more aircraft to Comair and allow them to stagnate and not be as profitable as they can be.

Don't you find it strange that Comair already has developed an exact timetable to get new jets? Bottom line, Comair is slated for new jets, and will get them in order to remain profitable to Delta, and they are just using this need for jets and have developed a timetable to trick Comair pilots into thinking they must take concessions in order to actually get them.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
:( WHAT! :(

Comair pilots nuke the unity with ASA pilots and you say live and let live? Why do you hold Comair pilots to a different standard than the Delta pilots? You can blame ALPA, blame the Delta MEC, blame the Comair MEC ( ALPA will ), blame brand scope, blame the market -

At the end of the day if the Comair pilots ratify the agreement they own the agreement.​


The Comair pilots are responsible for their actions and if they agree with ALPA's representational and bargaining practice ( in cohoots with Delta management ) then I understand who is to blame.

The Delta pilots never promised us their unity. The Comair pilots did and the ASA pilots entered into a union. There is a reason why Benedict Arnold is hated and Lord Howe is an unknown.


Fins my good friend - I understand your frustration. CMR is not the first group to stop falling on their swords. Ask our PDT and ALG colleagues what their reward was for "holding up the bar" on the USAirways property? Ask our Air Wisc. and ACA colleagues what their reward was for "holding up the bar" on the United property? Ask the CCAir pilots what their reward was for trying to "hold up the bar"?

If the CMR pilots vote no and the aircraft come here to ASA, will you refuse to fly them?

Face it Fins, ALPA has lost it's bargaining power. Checkmate!
 
PCL_128 said:
Well, at least something good is coming of all this. The RJDC supporters are all at each other's throats. At least I can take solace in the breakdown of the RJDC.


The RJDC predicted that ALPA's failure in scope policy would lead to this. I can tell you that the RJDC leadership is currently more unified than the ASA and CMR MECs.

Tell me PCL 128, how is DW's "brand scope" working for you all in the NWA family? As you can see by this thread, it is a dismal failure on the Delta/DCI property. Another accurate prediction by the RJDC.
 
InclusiveScope said:
The RJDC predicted that ALPA's failure in scope policy would lead to this. ... Another accurate prediction by the RJDC.


I agree entirely with what you're saying, however I think you should be careful not to start sounding like Boyd. He predicts that EVERYTHING could happen, so that he can always say he said it would happen.
 
Flying Horses said:
Management does not "reward" pilots by buying new airplanes. They buy and aquire new aircraft in order to increase their revenues and profits, the more aircraft flying, the more money an airline makes (as long as there is demand for them). Delta has determined the demand and need for more regional jets, namely 70-seaters. They have already inked a deal with CHQ, allowing CHQ to operate 16 EMB 170's. These aircraft are to be put into service slowly over the next 2 years. This is all that CHQ can afford and logistically put into service. Also, there is a limit to how much flying can be flown for Delta because of their other airline affiliations. In other words, CHQ will not be getting any more jets for Delta for a while. Also, ASA has already got their allotment of orders and logistically cannot receive more at the present time. That leaves Comair. Delta needs Comair to operate more jets, and they will get them.

Flying Horse,
Do you think Delta management wants to reward the CMR MEC for saying "no" a third time? The first time was the strike. The second time was the RFP. This is the third time, and if Delta management gives in, it will be a huge victory for ALPA. I don't think management is bluffing. Whipsawing works - that's why they use it.
 
InclusiveScope said:
Another accurate prediction by the RJDC.

Pat yourselves on the back a little more could. That is like predicting and earthquake on the San Andreas fault line.

You guys never quit.
 

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