Comair exit poll

[jarhead]

post number 127

A Clarification to post #127 on this thread.

I (jarhead) am not a Comair pilot and never have been. I did not post that particular item. I have a son who is beginning his ninth year as a Comair Capt. He did not post it either. My son has my permission to log on under my handle, which he does from time to time to lurk and read the various posts here. I could count on one hand the number of times he has posted under my logon, and he has my permission to do that also.

I know the Comair pilot (the 16 year Comair Capt.) who put up post #127, and I know him personally. He also has no “membership” on flightinfo, and I do not object to him voicing his view here. The 16 year captain is over at the house of my son, the 9 year captain, helping him with a remodeling project of his basement today.

I surmise that while taking a coffee break, the two of them went into my son’s office and read here. That is when #127 was put up here. Many readers here know that I have never been a commercial pilot, and that even if I were, I’m 64 years old and would have been done with it anyway by now.

No harm, no foul. I just did not to not leave an impression that I make it up as to who I am as I go along.

 

[Ward]

Ok ~~~

Given the choices, what would you have us do?

1. Vote this thing down and have the airplanes go to CHQ or Skywest? I for one have no doubt the aircraft will not come here if this is voted down. Why? That would show a weakness on the DAL side which I believe would be totally unacceptable to them.

2. Vote it in and grow to maintain the highest pay matrix (and QOL) that would be enhanced in the future.

Besides, can't this be to your advantage? If this agreement is acceptable to Delta, why can't you demand it?

It's still the highest paying matrix, it has rigs (granted beneficial to only some), 100% deadhead pay (I don't know if you guys have that or not), retirement, I believe the highest per diem at $1.75, and block or actual flight time without a pilot-pushing incentive (from the CHQ contract).

Another thing to think about (not that it would change much), it isn't our contract you should be improving upon. It should have one of MANY since our ratification.

I'm certainly not doing the "happy dance" over this, but it may be neccessary to keep the hardest fighting group around for the next battle.

Ward

 

[av8tor4239]

But helping you WILL HURT us. I wish you could understand that and respect our decision. We're scared of what will happen with a "NO". Put yourself in our shoes.

Once again we're sorry it hurts you, but shouldn't we look out for our pilot group before yours? Please try to understand and let's try to stop the bickering.

Jet

HOLY CRAP.. I think Comair Management kidnapped jetflyer, strapped him to a chair and INJECTED the KoolAid straight into his viens...

HEY JET... I have a question for you.. Were you Scared of what would happen in 2001 when you voted to strike?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Ward: Correct - I would have voted this down. When the RFP airplanes came around we quashed it then and would do the same today.

You guys forget that you are owned by Delta. You are a Delta asset. Delta has the incentive to keep their asset running with up to date equipment. I imagine that Delta could care less about keeping Skywest and Chautauqua in new jets.

Our seven year old contract has 100% deadhead pay, 6% 401K match, and higher of block, or flight time. So we are behind you by $0.25 on per diem and we don't have a look back duty rig. We did pretty good last time we were given "the bar" and I expect we will repeat our performance given our importance to Delta's primary hub.

Hopefully we will not get our own version of Freddie Smooth Talk to scare the bejeesus out of junior pilots while enticing senior guys with shiny E170's.

Maybe it is because you embarrassed your buddy "Fred" during the strike that he shut you out of the RFP airplanes. But more than likely Delta was simply re-aligning operations knowing that Comair would be doing ACA flying and ASA and CHQ would be needed to backfill. But, Comair pilots & management are not making sense.

If your contract is so good and still #1 ( Still the highest cost ) then how is it enough to justify giving you additional airplanes?

I just think you guys have had to go two years without growth ( gasp ) and the lack of 26 year old 1,500 hour Captains has some thinking the world is coming to an end. If you want something to really worry about, take a look at Delta's balance sheet and tell me how they are going to buy anything after this fall. Perhaps they are just getting you fat for the IPO / Relisting.

In either case your vote will not effect the results. Even if the net result is 20 million that is still peanuts in an 1.2 to 1.4 Bn operation. The price of fuel effects results much more. All your vote did is break up the unity between the ASA and Comair pilots.

After we all calm down and a couple of Comair pilots get screamed at in ATL I am sure that the ASA & Comair MEC's will make up. We need unity, so badly that we have to forgive your cheatin ways. The RJDC effort is probably going to die - at least at ASA - because there is no point in a Holy War when you are aligned with infidels.

~~~^~~~

 

[jetflyer]

av8tor4239,

It's a good flavor that promises prosperity and job security and no I wasn't scared.

Jet

p.s. your kool-aid joke had me rolling

 

[jarhead]

HOLY CRAP.. I think Comair Management kidnapped jetflyer, strapped him to a chair and INJECTED the KoolAid straight into his viens...

HEY JET... I have a question for you.. Were you Scared of what would happen in 2001 when you voted to strike?

Anyone who was not "Scared" when casting a vote to strike would be a fool or a liar. It does take courage to put your livelyhood on the line. That said, I recall a greater than 98% vote to strike was cast, with fear and all.

 

[jetflyer]

I wasn't scared.

I came to Comair RIGHT after the strike. What the pilot's did before me was courageous and VERY admirable. I thank them every day. They are the best people to work with at any airline.

Jet

 

[av8tor4239]

If Comair says "NO" you guys at ASA, CHQ, and SKW WILL RECEIVE THESE AIRPLANES LIKE LAST TIME, and your future hard fought "COMAIR-1% contracts" will be worth more.

KOOL AID..

Yes, we at Comair are thinking of ourselves too, because a "NO" vote is scary for Comair's future. Very scary and could be very devastating.

I think this one is Orange KOOL AID

The fact YOU are not supporting us, SAYS A LOT. It says YOU are selfish.
Sorry, we don't want to KILL our airline. Our concerns are for our companies well being and for our futures at Comair.

Here is some grape KOOL AID
.

Which ever way this vote goes, we at Comair are going to do what we think is best for us, not you. SORRY.

No one is asking you do anything for anyone else but yourselves... DO YOU REALIZE you are taking concessions for somthing you as a pilot Have no control over.. COMAIR PILOTS CAN NOT CONTROL GROWTH.. NO PILOT GROUP CAN CONTROL GROWTH.

Here it is one more time for you JET... PILOTS can not control growth... YOur management will tell you you can, but they are LYING TO YOU.. you can not control growth.. you can not control growth

Sorry that you don't understand our situation,
Jet

I understand your situation... you were lied to by your management on the road shows and in emails etc. and now you have taken everything that the comair pilot group has worked so hard for and voted it out the window.. at the same time making it almost impossible for other pilot groups (ASA and Pinnicle right now.. and more to come in the future) to gain a contract that will keep us from becoming MARTA drivers, Amtrack Drivers, or Greyhound Drivers. I think Everyone understands your situation...

 

[~~~^~~~]

I came to Comair RIGHT after the strike. What the pilot's did before me was courageous and VERY admirable. I thank them every day. They are the best people to work with at any airline.

Jet

av8tor4239,

It's a good flavor that promises prosperity and job security and no I wasn't scared.

Jet

p.s. your kool-aid joke had me rolling

Were they doing interviews at "the Academy?" Sounds a lot like someone who applied during the strike.

 

[jetflyer]

Ok shortly after the strike I was hired, within a year.

No I'm not from the Academy, not that there is anything wrong with that

Jet

 

[~~~^~~~]

In my best Sam Waterston voice from Law & Order.... JetFlyer is in the witness box looking like a Cat that just ate a Canary in his blue interview suit....

And after the strike didn't they promise that the airline would double in size? And now aren't you just at the upgrade to Captain, but for a few lines of being able to hold a schedule? Isn't this all about you, your upgrade, your wanting to get those couple of airplanes that put you where you want to be - to he!! with the profession and to he!! with unity?

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I submit to you that the Defendant, Mr. JetFlyer's "yes" vote was not about "job security for all of Comair's employees," as he has written. Further JetFlyer has no respect for the pilots of Comair that have fought to make his profession into a life worth living. He is not worried about the age of Comair's fleet. He just wants a short upgrade, a fast track, a way ahead of others and is trying to fool all of us into believing this was necessary for the employees of Comair. Perjury on the FlightInfo board is not to be taken lightly!

Next we call Surplus to the stand.

 

[jetflyer]

LOL,

No, I will not upgrade from this. I am smack in the middle of the F.O. list.

Nice reference to law and order, though.

Trust me I'm not being self-serving, that will get me nowhere.

I'm thinking about our group, and it's ok for you to question my intentions. But you are wrong for saying I'm only saying what I'm saying FOR MYSELF.

Dang you're wrong a lot,

Jet

 

[jarhead]

~~~^~~~

Gotta hand it to you, you get some style points and humor points on that Law & Order post.

This BB could use more of both.

 

[jetflyer]

Plus Surplus1 is being the farthest I've EVER seen him from being SELF-SERVING by supporting this LOA.

How could a senior pilot like Surplus be only thinking of himself on this LOA?

It's impossible. He cares about the group and the COMPANY, God Forbid, and we all admire him.

I think it's wonderful that middle of the pack F.O.s and 16 year captains are coming together on this LOA. I think the unity is needed.

Once again, dang you're wrong a lot,
Jet

 

[jetflyer]

I guarantee you as well, that if I were a 25 year 70 seat Captain, I'd vote YES on this.

I swear to God, and I don't do that often, my intentions are noble.

Don't ever question me again,

Jet

 

[PCL_128]

I'm thinking about our group, and it's ok for you to question my intentions. But you are wrong for saying I'm only saying what I'm saying FOR MYSELF.

How 'bout we all start thinking about what is best for the entire profession? You talk about how you think this will help the Comair pilot group (it won't, but you aren't smart enough to figure that out), but how about what this will do to the entire regional industry? Two very large regionals (ASA, PCL) are currently in negotiations hoping to raise the bar for the entire profession. Meanwhile, jetflyer is worried about getting new airplanes even if it means the rest of the industry must suffer.

As for your "aging fleet" comment, that is just ridiculous. 14 year old RJs are not "aging." Those planes have many years left in them and they aren't going anywhere for quite some time. The CMR fleet will not shrink no matter how you vote on these concessions. You're just stretching to find any excuse you can to justify taking it up the a$$ to get more and bigger airplanes. The rest of us aint buying it, so give it up.

When it comes right down to it, this is concessions for growth. You can try to sugarcoat it, but that's all it is. If you vote no on these concessions, the worst case scenario is stagnation at CMR. Is that really so bad? Growth will stop eventually anyway. You can't keep growing forever. At some point the airline will reach maturity and stop taking on new aircraft. What will you do then? Accept Mesa-5% to steal their flying? Where does it all stop? I'm beginning to think that it will never stop. At this rate we will all be making Greyhound driver wages to fly 777s. Someone has to stop this nonsense. I was hoping the CMR pilots had enough common sense and loyalty to their fellow pilots, but I guess I was wrong.

 

[jetflyer]

COME ON, Where are the coming Kool-Aid REFERENCES?

I'm waiting.

They're good for a laugh

Jet

 

[~~~^~~~]

Don't ever question me again,

Jet

Oh' OK since you put it that way, the People rest.

 

[JI Gone OH]

How 'bout we all start thinking about what is best for the entire profession?QUOTE]

Comair did that nearly 4 years ago with the strike, and no one followed. They (not I) did their part. We (now I) are done doing what's best for "the industry" and are going into self preservation mode. Sorry if you don't see it our way, but the rest of the "regionals" gave us no choice.

 

[jetflyer]

PCL_128,

It is what is best for OUR pilot group and company. If you would get your head out of your a$$ and look at it from our viewpoint, YOU would see that.

Once again, you want us to VOTE "NO" SO:
1) You can get these GROWTH airplanes.
2) You can get a BETTER "COMAIR -1%" Contract.

We know what your intentions are for attacking Comair pilots. They are totally self serving.

Jet

 

[jetflyer]

PCL_128 and all of you attacking Comair pilots,

It's VERY EASY for you to sit back with your holier than though attitudes and say to us at Comair, "DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR THE INDUSTRY"

What have you done for the industry??

Jet

 

[~~~^~~~]

Comair did that nearly 4 years ago with the strike, and no one followed.

We (now I) are done doing what's best for "the industry" and are going into self preservation mode. Sorry, the rest of the "regionals" gave us no choice.

ASA was offered Comair's contract early in our negotiations and we turned it down.

Where do you get this crap about the rest of the industry? Did Mike Pinho ( Delta MEC Vice Chair ) fly to CVG?

Do you suggest ASA also go into self preservation mode? We were planning on raising the bar, but our brother shot us in the back and giggled because he thinks he might get our horse.

 

[JI Gone OH]

Do you suggest ASA also go into self preservation mode? We were planning on raising the bar, but our brother shot us in the back and giggled because he thinks he might get our horse.

Hey look, I'm not sure what the answer is for you guys down in ATL. What I do know is that I have been at COMAIR for over 3 years, and y'all have been negotiating for just about the entire time I have been here. I appreciate and believe that you were planning on raising the bar, but the question is when? We can't afford to sit around and wait for you, and in the meantime watch these airplanes continue be allocated to other "portfolio" carriers, esp. the non-WO's like CHQ. It's time for us to either ride the pine or get in the game. I prefer the latter....

I do understand and respect your views, but what you see and what we see are 2 very different pictures.

 

[ACE]

ASA was offered Comair's contract early in our negotiations and we turned it down.

Where do you get this crap about the rest of the industry? Did Mike Pinho ( Delta MEC Vice Chair ) fly to CVG?

Do you suggest ASA also go into self preservation mode? We were planning on raising the bar, but our brother shot us in the back and giggled because he thinks he might get our horse.

LMAO....You were offered our contract?...LMAO. Somehow I doubt it. We do work for the same overall management right? If you have proof of that one, please do show us.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL_128,

It is what is best for OUR pilot group and company. If you would get your head out of your a$$ and look at it from our viewpoint, YOU would see that.

Once again, you want us to VOTE "NO" SO:
1) You can get these GROWTH airplanes.

Sorry, but PCL is not bidding on any Delta flying that I'm aware of. I could care less about any growth anyway. I sit in the top 3rd of the seniority list, why would I care about more airplanes for new hires to fly? I certainly wouldn't take any concessions whatsoever for growth. We already have more than enough airplanes to keep our current pilots employed, and so does Comair.

2) You can get a BETTER "COMAIR -1%" Contract.

We know what your intentions are for attacking Comair pilots. They are totally self serving.

Jet

Sorry, wrong again. Comair -1% will get a big NO vote from me every time. Unless it's Comair +X% I will be voting NO. My intentions may be somewhat self serving. I do want us to get an industry leading contract, and your taking it up the a$$ is probably going to prevent that from happening. You're concessions are limiting my income potential just so you can fly a slightly bigger, slightly shinier RJ. So yeah, that bothers me. But what bothers me alot more is what this does longterm to the regional industry. Pattern bargaining requires us to raise the bar and keep it there. If everyone keeps taking concessions to get more airplanes, the pattern is going the wrong way. You're doing management's job for them. It's our job to raise the bar, not lower it. Stop gulping the kool aid and open your eyes. You're playing right into their trap.

 

[jetflyer]

PCL_128,

I stand corrected, you don't care about your fellow reserve CAs and FOs or the bottom of your seniority list, so YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT NEW PLANES.

Also, I'm sorry we're taking away some of your bargaining capital. You said it yourself you are slightly self serving over this issue.

I wish there were a better way than what is going on at Comair. I wish we could work closer together and have a mutual agreement that benefited us both. We weren't presented one. I hope we can mend these fences and regain our full support for each other one day.

Also, I guarantee, YOU MAY NOT, but if the rest of your pilot group were offered a deal like the one offered to Comair pilots, THEY WOULD TAKE IT IN A HEART BEAT.

I garinteeee

Jet

 

[~~~^~~~]

LMAO....You were offered our contract?...LMAO. Somehow I doubt it. We do work for the same overall management right? If you have proof of that one, please do show us.

IFly, PCL, anyone want to back me up on this?

At the contract opener Management Giggled and slid the Comair contract across the table. Our guys were prepared and slid a copy of Delta's C2K back the other way with a laugh from everyone. Over the next several months we were repeatedly told we would be the best paid pilots in the industry but we could accept the Comair pilots' contract language and get this done quick.

Admittedly over the years the rhetoric from management has changed. We were told we would be "among the best paid," then "you will earn industry standard," to the current verbiage that the "competitive environment has changed and we need an advantage against other very competitive Delta Connection carriers."

ASA's negotiators have been resolute. We continue to believe that a 1% difference in pilot compensation will not cause Delta to change its marketing plans, route structure or aircraft purchasing decisions. And if you believe it, then ASA gets the planes because we are Comair -1% ( after your vote ).

This "concession" was political. It certainly raised Fred Buttrell's star and I do believe he will try to deliver what he promises. It also will turn the tide at ASA and maybe CHQ.

Either way Comair will get the airplanes coming to Comair. The single greatest factor is Delta's balance sheet and $20 million in concessions does not do much to fix a $20,000,000,000.00 dollar shortfall.

~~~^~~~

 

[FlyComAirJets]

I wish we would have held out for a better offer -- after the ASA pilots inked their deal first.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I hope we can mend these fences and regain our full support for each other one day.

Also, I guarantee, YOU MAY NOT, but if the rest of your pilot group were offered a deal like the one offered to Comair pilots, THEY WOULD TAKE IT IN A HEART BEAT.

Jet

Jet which is it? You want full support, or you want us undercutting each other for airplanes?

You need those fences - to keep a bunch of angry ASA pilots from kicking your little self serving, I'm all for me, butt.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

If you wake up every day worried that you are not getting "industry leading pay", you are probably in for a disappointing career. Consider this with regard to the majors. Industry leading pay: 1962-TWA, 1972-Pan Am, 1982-Eastern, 1992-USAir, 2002-United or Delta (I'm not sure). Of course, pilot pay alone does not take an airline down, but labor costs are a very significant factor. Every major airline pilot group that was able to say that they had industry leading pay, soon faced furloughs and concessions.

If a pay freeze leads to significant growth, it may very well lead to more pay and quality of life through upgrades, better seniority, more productive schedules.