Comair CX all flights for 12/25 & 12/26

[Stifler's Mom]

I was referring to ASA. Go back and read what I wrote. I was referring to ASA being in bad shape before Delta bought us.

As far as Comair goes, you are right, things are obviously worse off after this past week's showing. You can deny it all you want, what happened in CVG this past week was a complete disaster. Talk about how much better off you were before Delta bought you, whatever, bottom line is right now the $hit hit the fan big time.

I know you'd personally like to blame Delta for your woes, ala the RJDC Lawsuit, but you can't. A major weakness in your company was exposed last week.

 

[LarryinTN]

They ran out of deice fluid because the trucks couldn't get to the airport to replace what they were using on Wednesday night and Thursday morning.

 

[601Pilot]

I see this same thing happening in Feb. when ASA shifts all the DFW flying to ATL and our "depeaking" schedule starts! Should be fun, NOT!

 

[bvt1151]

Stifler takes the prize. I thought it might take a few days for someone to blame the RJDC.

 

[surplus1]

I was referring to ASA. Go back and read what I wrote. I was referring to ASA being in bad shape before Delta bought us.

You referred to both, not just to ASA.

As far as Comair goes, you are right, things are obviously worse off after this past week's showing. You can deny it all you want, what happened in CVG this past week was a complete disaster. Talk about how much better off you were before Delta bought you, whatever, bottom line is right now the $hit hit the fan big time.

I'm not denying that this computer failure is a disaster. It should not have happened and it is our management's fault. No one is denying that. As far as the weather problems are concerned, those were not our fault.

I know you'd personally like to blame Delta for your woes, ala the RJDC Lawsuit, but you can't. A major weakness in your company was exposed last week.

I'm not blaming Delta for this in any way. What I'm doing is objecting to your spin. Considering that at ASA you can't run your operation reliably on any day of the week, with or without computers, you're not in a position to throw any stones at Comair, so don't.

Yes, this did expose a major weakness in our system. We should have had an electronic "mirror" backup and we didn't. We'll take the hit for that and we'll learn from the mistake.

In contrast, your entire ASA management system had to be replaced by Delta people and you still can't run the operation on a good day. Your Atlanta hub is the laughing stock of the industry and well known as the cluster F_K of the day. You are MUCH better off since you were bought but even after 5 years Delta still can't unscramble the everyday mess. So don't start crowing for your house is not glass, it's a permanent shamble.

Delta didn't buy you for the same reason that it bought Comair and everyone knows that, except you. Go pee in your own backyard where noone will notice.

 

[AV8700]

Apologies to the few Comair crews that were stuck in Atlanta and turned away from the Christmas dinner. That was embarrasing!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I hear what you are saying, and it would only be considered throwing stones if I said ASA were run better or this hasn't happened to us. If this was ASA and not Comair, I would be just as tough and embarrased. I already mentioned that in one of the many different posts that are going on about this. And now I guess you can no longer throw stones as well, seeing that Comair has now joined the ranks.

Delta bought ASA and Comair to have more control over both. The reasons behind that, are for different reasons I guess. I prefer to write no more than two sentences per post and I guess I should have done a better job separating the two companies. My conversations with ASA Captains center around that ASA and ATL are much better now than they were 5 years ago. Pretty scary stuff to somebody who has only seen the "now" and not the "then".

Is ATL a poorly run station? You only need to listen to the nonstop bickering on the OPS frequency to make your own decision. How many times do we need to call for fuel, lav dumps, wheelchairs, catering, cleaning, or for the dam n guy in E-Tower to help park us....what did I miss?

And by the way, you did say you were better off before Delta bought you.

Perhaps things were "worse" at ASA before Delta bought them, but they were not worse at Comair. In fact the exact opposite is true.

 

[Freebrd]

>>>>>How many times do we need to call for fuel, lav dumps, wheelchairs, catering, cleaning, or for the dam n guy in E-Tower to help park us....<<<<<

How many times you ask? How about none, zero! Just sit and wait for the so called Departure Coordinators to show up, and inform them of your requests.

This is the way management wants to run it, so be it. When we get management to become serious in negotiations then maybe, just maybe, we can call ops for these services, which, btw, should be accomplished without requesting them, uh, hmphh, according to the SPs.

And Surplus is entirely right. Comair had their act together, from management on down to the rampers. Just experience Cincy and you'll see the difference. Here at ASA it's been screwed up for decades my friend, decades. Just a different set of managers now, who borrowed the playbook of the original owners. And I've been here (ASA) for quite some time so I know.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Inexcusable. With the technology available today, there should be a backup system in place, no matter how archaic it may be.

I wonder how much money Delta is going to lose because of this? All of these people will remember their experience on Comair/Delta next time they are given the option of choosing an air carrier.

Anybody know who was responsible for the deicing fluid running out at CVG? Is that the city, airport, or airlines?????? Another fuk up at the worst possible time.

Merry Christmas from the airline industry.

The glycol problem was created by the fact that the airframes had so much ice on them it was taking over an hour to deice one airplane.That is about 5 times the fluid needed per airplane than usual. You use a heck of a lot of glycol in an hour. No one could of anticipated that. It not only snowed but we had sleet and freezing rain for around three hours.

 

[Bart Simpson]

Hey, has anyone actually considered blaming CHQ and its pilots?
I'm not sure how but I'm sure someone here has enough imagination to blame CornAirs disaster on us.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

Hey, has anyone actually considered blaming CHQ and its pilots?
I'm not sure how but I'm sure someone here has enough imagination to blame CornAirs disaster on us.

Nope, you're the only one so far. Funny, feeling guilty? Did you think of CornAir all by yourself? Clever!

 

[twobits]

about the only positive note to the Comair shutdown - maybee comair saved several peoples lives over the past few days. Who knows, maybee someone would have been traveling to indonesia or thailand but instead got stuck at home or in CVG. So, maybee only 79990 passengers were dissapointed and the other 10 really satisfied they didn't make their flight to Thailand via JFK or wherever......

either way, i'm sure that every IT exec at every airline is already making sure they don't have another Comair on their hand. I wonder how many resume's the CIO at Comair is sending out on Monday? Acutally, I still wonder how long it takes for Butrell to get the axe.

 

[bvt1151]

I'm not sure this is something that really could have realistically been avoided. Seven days worth of glycol is definitely adequate from a planning standpoint for two days worth of snow, especially with a half-dozen trucks on the way. SBS, while old, gave no indications of a meltdown at 32,768 commands. The paper backup system did go into effect, per FAA approvals, of course there is no way you can take a computer-trained scheduling department that the computer couldn't even run and operate anything significant with paper.

What is impressive to me is that, even with about 25-30 aircraft frozen to the ground in CVG, the rest stuck in outstations, no scheduling system, and crews spread out all over the country where schedulers don't know where they are, Comair is operating at around 15% completion. That's around 175 flights today, and they want to start a full schedule tomorrow. We rag on the schedulers and management, but if you look closely at what events happened, and the total lack of control Comair had over those events (such as weather and computer malfunctions), I'd say they did an outstanding job. Of course the media will point to a complete collapse of management, but I'd argue it was the outstanding policies and personnel in place that accomplished what it did. When other airlines lose their scheduling systems, its usually during normal operations when crew's know their assignments and everything is in automatic anyways. A paper system is not that difficult to implement with only 5-10% irregular operations. But Comair was operating at 95-100% irregular operations, and nobody has had a scheduling system fail in those circumstances. Not to mention your only pilot base could not accept any more aircraft, nor could it dispatch anymore due to the glycol shortage. Nobody could come to work, and nobody could go home, unless they lived somewhere else. A seperate crew base would have aleviated some of this, but where would it be? Delta's changing our schedule so much its dizzying. I'm sure those schedule changes didn't help the SBS situation either.

We can argue that SBS is way outdated and should have been replaced years ago, but from a decision making standpoint (and assumming they had no knowledge of the "32K bug") staying with SBS until they could find a replacement that met all of their requirements was the safe bet. The system was working, and while it needed to be updated, it did work, and until yesterday was a reliable system to Comair. The thought that SBS would explode like that would have been inconceivable only 48 hours ago.

Other airlines are doing the right thing in realizing it very well could have happened to them, and to check their scheduling systems for the same or similar bug.

As for Comair's ability to operate, I think if you'll look closely enough into the events, you'll find that they handled it as well as any other airline could have.

 

[79%N1]

Ok Surplus.....I always thought of you as a sort of allie. But, now I have to say your comments have turned me the other way. Nice job bashing your "brothers" at ASA. I'll bet you 1 Billion, zillion dollars that if you moved your entire Comair team from CVG to ATL you would fare NO BETTER. ATL is the worlds busiest airport, not a podunk little airport like CVG!!! BIG DIFFERENCE! How many more flights are operated out of ATL than CVG???? Nice of you to take a shot at ASA, though. Sorry we are the "joke of the entire aviation industry!" Sorry we are such a "mess".

Now I do get it....Comair is THE BEST!!!

 

[homerjdispatch]

So how many flights are operating on Tuesday? Are you going to be back to a full schedule?

 

[English]

Apologies to the few Comair crews that were stuck in Atlanta and turned away from the Christmas dinner. That was embarrasing!

This actually happened? You've got to be kidding! What kind of human being turns his back on another in a time of need?

 

[737 Pylt]

What kind of human being turns his back on another in a time of need?

Ask the CMR MEC that question! They seem to be quite good at it!
737

 

[Smacktard]

Is ATL a poorly run station? You only need to listen to the nonstop bickering on the OPS frequency to make your own decision. How many times do we need to call for fuel, lav dumps, wheelchairs, catering, cleaning, or for the dam n guy in E-Tower to help park us....what did I miss?

That's the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** problem, don't call ops with those requests. Call your departure coordinator. One call. Lookup the delay codes (SP 358) and use them. The problem will not change until those that make the decisions get a bette idea of where the problems are. You are only making matters worse when you make multiple requests for those services. And if you complain about it, you're complaing about something that you are responsible for!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

That's the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** problem, don't call ops with those requests. Call your departure coordinator. One call. Lookup the delay codes (SP 358) and use them. The problem will not change until those that make the decisions get a bette idea of where the problems are. You are only making matters worse when you make multiple requests for those services. And if you complain about it, you're complaing about something that you are responsible for!

I don't call for it, one call to Ops for a Departure Coordinator and that's it. I only explained the above post the way I did for those that are not familiar with our Operation.

 

[gordon24]

737 pylot:



Do you live in Miami? I wished (against my better judgement) some Delta loser a Merry X-mas the other day while waiting for my flight home. I got the usual, "You're not a Delta pilot, so, I won't acknowledge your presence." Well, he sure changed his mind when the gate agent told him the flight was full and there wasn't a seat for him. This tool walks over and asks me if I'm on the jumpseat. Before I can answer he proceeds to lecture me on how I need a seat in the back because I can't sit up front. I explained to him that I am sitting in the back and that I'm not listed for the jump. He then gets real pissy with me and tells me how he can't get home because "I" scammed the gate agent into giving me a seat before him, when I clearly don't work for Delta. I let Capt. POS rant and rave a few more minutes until I drop the bomb on him. You should have seen his face when I told him I'm a frac pilot and have a postive space ticket. He huffs and puffs something about being an a#$hole and walks off. When I boarded the flight, I saw him sitting in the corner stewing, so, I flipped him the bird. Merry X-mas you Delta F@gs.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Ok Surplus.....I always thought of you as a sort of allie. But, now I have to say your comments have turned me the other way. Nice job bashing your "brothers" at ASA. I'll bet you 1 Billion, zillion dollars that if you moved your entire Comair team from CVG to ATL you would fare NO BETTER. ATL is the worlds busiest airport, not a podunk little airport like CVG!!! BIG DIFFERENCE! How many more flights are operated out of ATL than CVG???? Nice of you to take a shot at ASA, though. Sorry we are the "joke of the entire aviation industry!" Sorry we are such a "mess".

Now I do get it....Comair is THE BEST!!!

ATL being the busiest airport may be a factor, but 99% of the problem lies with management and their insisting on under staffing the ramp, and staffing with unmotivated, minimum wage level people. If you look at the demographics of the ATL airport, and the potential entry level employees in that area, you'll understand the problem. It's not just an ASA problem, it's a Burger King problem, a Wendy's problem, a hotel van driver problem.

The reason you can't get a windshield wash at C24 is the same reason you can't get a ride from the Red Roof van. The Renaissance spends the extra couple of bucks an hour for their van drivers, and what do you know, he shows up on schedule. (And he'll take you to the Red Roof for a few bucks)

It's the same reason the on time performance spikes downward during the Superbowl, NCAA or NBA finals. The same reason we used to have a big portion of our bag tug fleet parked at the MARTA station after shift changes on the ramp. Professionalism is not something you can get for free. If ASA wants motivated people on the ramp, they need to spend the $ and recognize it's a cost of doing business, just like gate space or fuel.

Once you hire decent people, you need to treat them as assets, not as the enemy. Does SWA pay it's entry level people THAT much more than ASA? Nope, but they treat them entirely differently. "What can we do to make this a better place for you to work?" vs "Up to and including termination......"

When management makes the decision to not spend the extra $ to either attract or import motivated workers, and then insists on treating them like 18th century peasants, the results are the same, no matter what the business.

Ya get what ya pay for. And I guarantee, the army of MBA bean counters have run the numbers through the spreadsheet programs. They WANT it this way, they LIKE it this way, if they didn't, it would have been fixed by now. As far as the suits on Virginia Ave are concerned, the numbers just aren't there.

Copy dat.......................


(I do need to add however, there ARE a lot of really good people on the ATL ramp, who continually bust their a$$ to get the flights out on time. If we could hire more like them, and get them to STAY here, we'd be at the top of the on time performance list every time, busiest airport or not)

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I don't have time to read the whole thread but I'm wondering if General Lee has called for CMR to be sold and replaced by Xjet. After all that was his response to the Cat 2 issues at SkyWest.

 

[surplus1]

And by the way, you did say you were better off before Delta bought you.

Yes, I did say that and I meant every word of it.

We have become bigger since Delta bought us. We would have become bigger with or without Delta. Perhaps not as big as we are now, but certainly more efficient and since our business is about making money, and not about being "bigger", that would be fine. The truth is we were a much better run Company before we were acquired by Delta than we are today. We were also much more profitable, when we were paying our own way and running our own business.

In fact we are still one of the best run regionals in the country and that is in spite of Delta's efforts, rather than because of them. We didn't need "mama Delta" to teach us how to run the airline and we don't now. There are lots of things we've been "forced" to do by Delta that we would never have done before. None of them has been beneficial to Comair and few of them have been beneficial to Delta.

Left to our own devices we were a better run Company. You can believe otherwise if you wish and that's OK with me.

As far as this computer crash is concerned, I say again, it should never have happened and it is our management's fault. There are no excuses and no denials. It's a major screw up and there's no two ways about it. We will fix it.

However, having our airline run by a collection of Delta bottom feeders such as those panned off on ASA would not have prevented it. I will agree with you that ASA is better run today than it was 5 years ago, but plain and simple, Comair is not.

The Delta people that are running ASA and DCI are substantially inferior as managers than the people running Comair, both before the acquisition and since the acquisition (which created DCI). Delta's management doesn't know how to run a "legacy airline" that has existed for 75 years and have run it into the ground. They know far less about how to run a "regional airline".

From my perspective, ASA's problems in ATL do not result from congestion. They are the result of management's failure to deal with the congestion. They are "people" problems (excluding flight crew) and physical plant problems, but principally the former. They don't hire the right people and they don't manage the people that they do hire. That results in atrocious customer service and the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of your "Delta" management team.

AirTran lives and operates out of the same "congested" airport, without the chaos. How is that possible? If Delta managers are so "hot" at running ASA, why haven't they fixed the problem (which has been going on for years and only gets worse)?

I would be willing to bet you that if Delta's DCI managers were not "meddling" Comair would most probably never have gone to ATL, certainly not in such quantity. Secondly, if Delta managers were to permit Comair managers to operate their own station in Atlanta it would be functioning and would not be so adversely affecting the airline's overall performance. Comair management would never permit the things I have personally experienced in ATL both as a pilot and a passenger on ASA.

I certainly don't blame any of that on ASA's cockpit flight crews. I know very well that on most days it would not function at all were it not for the efforts of ASA pilots. But, we're not talking about pilots, we're talking about management, ground personnel, customer service and even flight attendants. The fact is that ASA management sucks and every one of them is a hand-me-down of a Delta flunky.

Thefore, when you try to tell me that ASA is better run by Delta than it was before and that Comair is too, I have to call you on it. Comair is NOT better run by Delta, was much better run before Delta, and I pray every day that we will not wind up being saddled by another bunch of Delta flunkies trying to run this Company. You are welcome to all of them. Hopefully, we'll never see their faces in CVG.

Hopefully we can fix our "problem" sooner than later and get back on track.

Happy New Year to you. Nothing personal about this; hope you understand that.

 

[surplus1]

Ask the CMR MEC that question! They seem to be quite good at it!
737

We learned it all from the Delta MEC. You cast your bread upon the waters. You should not be surprised that you got some of it back.

 

[surplus1]

Ok Surplus.....I always thought of you as a sort of allie. But, now I have to say your comments have turned me the other way. Nice job bashing your "brothers" at ASA. I'll bet you 1 Billion, zillion dollars that if you moved your entire Comair team from CVG to ATL you would fare NO BETTER. ATL is the worlds busiest airport, not a podunk little airport like CVG!!! BIG DIFFERENCE! How many more flights are operated out of ATL than CVG???? Nice of you to take a shot at ASA, though. Sorry we are the "joke of the entire aviation industry!" Sorry we are such a "mess".

I'm sorry you're such a mess too, believe me. Before you get your panties all in a wad, I did not say a single word that has anything to do with cockpit flight crews. We are talking about management problems, not pilot problems. There is no pilot bashing anywhere in my post, I'm bashing your management.

Yes, I know that ATL is a much busier airport. See my post to StiflersMom and you'll know what I think about that.

I'll take your bet of "1 Billion, zillion dollars". If Delta were to get rid of the flunkies they assigned to ASA and give Comair management a free hand, we've have that ATL mess straightened out in six months. I'll guarantee you it would never be tolerated for years, like it has been.

I'm sorry but the truth is that ASA had incompetent management before Delta bought it and the "Delta people" that replaced the old are obviously no better. You didn't get the cream of the crop from Delta, you got the bottom feeders, and it shows.

Now I do get it....Comair is THE BEST!!!

Congratulations! In terms of the quality of Comair's management, you got that exactly right! Feel free to compare it to any other regional airline in the country. Comair was the best managed rigional carrier before Delta, and it remains the best managed in spite of Delta.

I can't apologize for the truth.

 

[Flywrite]

737 pylot:



Do you live in Miami? I wished (against my better judgement) some Delta loser a Merry X-mas the other day while waiting for my flight home. I got the usual, "You're not a Delta pilot, so, I won't acknowledge your presence." Well, he sure changed his mind when the gate agent told him the flight was full and there wasn't a seat for him. This tool walks over and asks me if I'm on the jumpseat. Before I can answer he proceeds to lecture me on how I need a seat in the back because I can't sit up front. I explained to him that I am sitting in the back and that I'm not listed for the jump. He then gets real pissy with me and tells me how he can't get home because "I" scammed the gate agent into giving me a seat before him, when I clearly don't work for Delta. I let Capt. POS rant and rave a few more minutes until I drop the bomb on him. You should have seen his face when I told him I'm a frac pilot and have a postive space ticket. He huffs and puffs something about being an a#$hole and walks off. When I boarded the flight, I saw him sitting in the corner stewing, so, I flipped him the bird. Merry X-mas you Delta F@gs.

Sounds like you should have got his name and sent a strongly worded letter to DAL about how their employees speak to revenue passengers.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Comair CX all flights...

Other airlines are doing the right thing in realizing it very well could have happened to them, and to check their scheduling systems for the same or similar bug.

Once again, Comair is on the cutting edge, leading the industry into the 21st century.

I expect Comair will have this problem fixed in a few days but 737 Pylt will still be a moron-incapable of developing beyond the mental age of 8 -12.

(Hey, maybe it's just the merlot talking).

 

[N813CA]

DOT 211-04
Contact: Dave Smallen, Tel.: (202) 366-5568
Friday, December 17, 2004

Weekly News Digest


BTS Reclassifies Airlines for 2005. The U.S. Department of Transportation’s Bureau of Transportation Statistics has issued the 2005 airline groupings based on annual revenues. For the first time, Comair and JetBlue Airways are classified as major carriers with more than $1 billion in annual revenue. Sun Country Airlines and USA 3000 Airlines have been classified as national airlines – those with $100 million to $1 billion in revenues – and SkyKing Airlines was included in the large regional airline category, consisting of carriers with revenues of $20 million to $100 million. For the complete listing, see http://www.bts.gov/programs/airline_information/accounting_and_reporting_directives/number_276.html. Contact: Dave Smallen: 202-366-5568.

 

[737 Pylt]

737 pylot:



Do you live in Miami? I wished (against my better judgement) some Delta loser a Merry X-mas the other day while waiting for my flight home. I got the usual, "You're not a Delta pilot, so, I won't acknowledge your presence." Well, he sure changed his mind when the gate agent told him the flight was full and there wasn't a seat for him. This tool walks over and asks me if I'm on the jumpseat. Before I can answer he proceeds to lecture me on how I need a seat in the back because I can't sit up front. I explained to him that I am sitting in the back and that I'm not listed for the jump. He then gets real pissy with me and tells me how he can't get home because "I" scammed the gate agent into giving me a seat before him, when I clearly don't work for Delta. I let Capt. POS rant and rave a few more minutes until I drop the bomb on him. You should have seen his face when I told him I'm a frac pilot and have a postive space ticket. He huffs and puffs something about being an a#$hole and walks off. When I boarded the flight, I saw him sitting in the corner stewing, so, I flipped him the bird. Merry X-mas you Delta F@gs.

Gordon:
That's a funny story. No I don't live in MIA. I live in the cold Northeast. Sorry to hear that you weren't treated fairly. I bet its because you are an a$$hole!
Merry Christmas to you too!
737

 

[737 Pylt]

We learned it all from the Delta MEC. You cast your bread upon the waters. You should not be surprised that you got some of it back.

Care to elaborate, or are you taling more jibberish as usual. I think you need to go back to taking the prozac, you used to make sense. How about taking more cheap shots at the folks at ASA.
737