Colgan

[BritishGuy]

The military aside - in Europe fresh JAR/JAA Pilots having completed their ATPL courses with a mere 250 hrs get positions flying 737-800 with easyjet / ryanair without too much problems. Many of the older more experienced people say that some of these new guys that come thought fly like it's second nature, while some of the new guys have problems. So maybe - its something based upon personal ability (and quality training) as opposed to just being a 'low timer'.

 

[chperplt]

Finally, if you are against PFT, does that mean that nobody should pay for graduate school? What about medical or law school

Not a very strong argument.



BritishGuy

You are corrent in that many European countries put low time guys in jets. Take a look at the accident/incident rates for those airlines. How many accidents did China Air have in the past 4 or 5 years with those low time guys????

Take yourself and your goals out of the equation. Would you, as a passenger, want someone with 600 hours flying the airplane you and your family are on?

 

[deadstick]

quote:
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Finally, if you are against PFT, does that mean that nobody should pay for graduate school? What about medical or law school
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Not a very strong argument.


chperplt,

Aviation, medicine and law are three fields inwhich people have the _potential_ to make a lot of money. Assuming that a college is on the level of a zero-to-hero flight school that results in a commercial license and an instructor ticket or two, the next step is post-graduate.

Yea you can get a job fresh out of school, but even a BA/BS has become the norm. So what is the exception? Post graduate degrees. Post graduate is anything like an MBA, MA, MS, as well as the MD and JD. They all cost money the college grad (for the most part) has to ante up. So what's the difference with our profession?

 

[chperplt]

A post graduate degree is just that.... a degree. It's a process where the student is educated in a classroom environment. You are paying for an education. PFTers are paying for experience that shouldn't be gained at the customers expense.

Sure, med students spend their last year of med school in the hospital. The difference being the patient knows they are at a teaching hospital, and can request another DR. to treat them.

How many passengers would get on the airplane if they had a sign in the terminal that said.. Folks, you are getting on a flight where the first officer has paid a large amount of money to occupy his seat. He has very limited experience and this will be his first flight actually going into the clouds. BUT FOLKS.. there is no need to worry. While the FO will be admiring the view, the Captain will be monitoring the control of the airplane, listening to the radio, looking for traffic, trying to teach the FO, and keep all of you safe.

Everything I described the captain doing, he would be doing regardless. In a real crew environment, the FO would be doing many of those same tasks as well. In a PFT environment, the captain is the only one looking after the flight.

There is a big difference between PFTing and going to grad school.

 

[deadstick]

You have a point with the teaching hospital. I didn't imagine the PFT environment you discribed. I feel a crew is a crew, not a pilot and one more passenger.

I agree that the system you outlined is total BS, and not the degree. I also feel that the PFT/INDOC/aircraft training is"...a process where the student is educated in a classroom environment. You are paying for an education." I see this as a difference between the Gulfstream Acad's that keep you for 250 hrs and then show you the door vs Colgan or other outfits where you are paying for the initial training (the education) and then you have a job -- no 250 hr limit. Like I said earlier, I can't see how they can give a company all that money and not want a type rating (the degree).

 

[chperplt]

Colgan offers it's PFTers a type if they chose. The problem being, the type ride is much harder for the low time PFter than the standard FO ride. You can train to proficiency on the FO ride, but have to hit everything the first time on the type ride. It would suck to get a pink slip that early in your career.

Time to watch some auto racing..

 

[blade230]

chperplt

You are incorrect about the low time accident rates, including China Airlines. The accidents China Airlines has encountered has been with all high time ex-military pilots, not low time cadets. Cathay Pacific, Dragonair, Japan Airlines, ANA, China Airlines, China Southern, Shanghai Air, Singapore Airlines, British Airways, Rynair, Easy Jet, Brittania, Lufthansa, Emirates..... I could go on and on with the airlines around the world that put 250 hour kids into real jet equipment, not 1900's. These airlines are a hell of alot bigger than Colgan, and it is widely known to passengers that many of their pilots come from airline training academies. My cousin is an ex-cadet at Cathay, his first aircaft was a 747, he is now a captain on a 777, sorry, NO accidents. Not one of these airlines has ecountered an accident/incident due to low time guys being in the cockpit. Do you actually think insurance companies would insure these guys with high accident rates associated with low time pilots?

No way.

 

[chperplt]

Do you actually think insurance companies would insure these guys with high accident rates associated with low time pilots?

Absolutely... Insurance companies will insure anything.

 

[druglord]

Gotta say cherplt is one of the best captains I've flown with too and I think he knows what he's talking about. CX, QF, CHina Air, they all hire as 2nd officers don't they? So after 5 years or so sitting on the jump seat you should have a pretty good idea of how the airplane flies. A friend used to instruct at the china air cadet program in perth and told me all the stories of 250 hour pilots in the citation.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Take yourself and your goals out of the equation. Would you, as a passenger, want someone with 600 hours flying the airplane you and your family are on?

I wouldn't mind if they had been properly trained AND had a Captain with appropriate experience. It doesn't take 5000 hours to figure all this out. If, as you say, Colgan is turning out inadequate pilots, it's more of a reflection of their training program not matching the needs of the pilots they hire.

 

[blade230]

Druglord,

To add to your post, generally only Cathay has Second Officers that act as "cruise pilots". Most every other airline that hires cadets has them right seat from the get go. And to add to that, the average upgrade from cadet Second Officer to Junior First Officer at Cathay is LESS than 3 years. As of this year.

Maybe Typhoon Pilot can chime in here with regards to cadets at Emirates.

 

[chperplt]

If, as you say, Colgan is turning out inadequate pilots, it's more of a reflection of their training program not matching the needs of the pilots they hire.

I won't disagree with that.

It's not because of poor instructing or poor leadership within the training department though.

 

[halfmoon]

actually if you look at accidents/incidents with CX, china, dragon etc etc.. you will see that almost all have a captains who went through the cadetship programs. In other words they are asians who know the manuals inside and out but can't fly the plane. Truth.

 

[blade230]

Well halfmoon,
since you are so "educated", why don't you post the details of the incidents/accidents you speak of (carrier/date/incident), with the applicable cadet/pilots name and total time. And also where it stated the applicable pilot was a cadet. Since you are so sure about your "facts".

Considering Dragonair has NOT YET upgraded their first cadet captain. And Cathay currenly has less than 5 captains, who started with the carrier as cadets.

 

[blade230]

One more thing halfmoon, many of the cadets at Cathay are NOT Asian, they are British/Canadians who where born in Hong Kong.

Guess you probably knew that also.