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DHPFLYN
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Chperplt
Not that I care much either way about what Colgan does about hiring. It seems to me after reading posts that you do. You have already left Colgan. Am I right?? If you hate that company so bad and are so happy to be gone then why do you care what they do?? You are gone get over it !!! IT seems if someone hates a company so much they would leave and never look back but for some reason it sounds like all you want to do is go back and cry about things that happened whrn you USED to work there. I dont know what company you are flying for but I sure hope you arent in my cockpit just what I want a cry baby F/O complaining about his old job the whole trip !! My advice is just move on !!
Just my thought
Not that I care much either way about what Colgan does about hiring. It seems to me after reading posts that you do. You have already left Colgan. Am I right?? If you hate that company so bad and are so happy to be gone then why do you care what they do?? You are gone get over it !!! IT seems if someone hates a company so much they would leave and never look back but for some reason it sounds like all you want to do is go back and cry about things that happened whrn you USED to work there. I dont know what company you are flying for but I sure hope you arent in my cockpit just what I want a cry baby F/O complaining about his old job the whole trip !! My advice is just move on !!
Just my thought
chperplt
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DHPFLYN
I think you need to go back to school and learn some reading comprehension.
My comments are in regard to the process of PFTing, and the dangers of low time pilots in the cockpit of an airliner. IF someone has a question I can answer, I'll answer it. Doesn't matter if it's the answer that person wants to hear or not.
This has nothing to do with complaining about company A or company B.
Just MY thoughts
I think you need to go back to school and learn some reading comprehension.
My comments are in regard to the process of PFTing, and the dangers of low time pilots in the cockpit of an airliner. IF someone has a question I can answer, I'll answer it. Doesn't matter if it's the answer that person wants to hear or not.
This has nothing to do with complaining about company A or company B.
Just MY thoughts
deadstick
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Flyairjason
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'Spect Ya'll!!!
Alright everyone simma down now...
Fellas, slow down and listen to what Chpr is saying. I have flown with this guy (Chpr), and he is top notch. He isn't "pissed" or "bitter", he is doing what we all do- looking out for his bros.
I haven't heard one member actually stand up for PFT, and in fact, I think we all pretty much agree that PFTers are six feet lower than whale scat. They completely undermine every starving, broke-a$$ day you've ever had in your career while you were doing what it took to make your dream become reality. And, you know what? I don't think that there's one guy or gal out there that doesn't feel proud about their level of success after they've worked their arses off for it. In fact, that's what we call that word... PRIDE.
Then along comes Mr. PFTer... Not only is he a liability in the cockpit with his level of INexperience, he also ensures that you and your hard work are never recognized or respected. Hey, if anyone can tell me about the good side of PFT, well then I'm all ears. So far, I've never heard anyone defend it except the folks who are taking the money for it.
DHPFLYN, dude, relax. You'd fly next to Chpr and think he was freak'n hilarious and a bada$$ pilot. That's the problem with Colgan... They have so much talent, and they shat all over them.
Regards fellas,
Jason
Alright everyone simma down now...
Fellas, slow down and listen to what Chpr is saying. I have flown with this guy (Chpr), and he is top notch. He isn't "pissed" or "bitter", he is doing what we all do- looking out for his bros.
I haven't heard one member actually stand up for PFT, and in fact, I think we all pretty much agree that PFTers are six feet lower than whale scat. They completely undermine every starving, broke-a$$ day you've ever had in your career while you were doing what it took to make your dream become reality. And, you know what? I don't think that there's one guy or gal out there that doesn't feel proud about their level of success after they've worked their arses off for it. In fact, that's what we call that word... PRIDE.
Then along comes Mr. PFTer... Not only is he a liability in the cockpit with his level of INexperience, he also ensures that you and your hard work are never recognized or respected. Hey, if anyone can tell me about the good side of PFT, well then I'm all ears. So far, I've never heard anyone defend it except the folks who are taking the money for it.
DHPFLYN, dude, relax. You'd fly next to Chpr and think he was freak'n hilarious and a bada$$ pilot. That's the problem with Colgan... They have so much talent, and they shat all over them.
Regards fellas,
Jason
chperplt
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Thanks Jason
Deadstick..
I don't exactly know how they do the financial aspect of the program. If you have an ATP with 1900 type, I imagine you could get hired as an street captain. I understand they are quite short on Beech Captains.
Too many people stole Homer... A change was due
Deadstick..
I don't exactly know how they do the financial aspect of the program. If you have an ATP with 1900 type, I imagine you could get hired as an street captain. I understand they are quite short on Beech Captains.
Too many people stole Homer... A change was due
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OK, please don't anyone slam me for stating an opinion because i don't mean to offend anyone. All of you are absolutely entitled to feel the way you do. i just think it wise to be open to both sides of the argument.
i myself am not PFT, but i have flown with guys who are- and there are certainly some who should not be allowed through the cockpit door. however, to be fair, i also have to admit that there are some who have real potential, and are eager and willing to learn. they simply had a goal and the means and opportunty to reach it, albeit not what we call conventionally. although i don't necessarily agree with the system, i can't fault someone for doing what they feel is right for them personally at that time in their life, and I'd rather fly with them, than a cocky know-it-all who thinks he's God in the cockpit. all i'm trying to say is that maybe rather than judge these guys as a whole, you could try and look at them on a case by case basis.
i myself am not PFT, but i have flown with guys who are- and there are certainly some who should not be allowed through the cockpit door. however, to be fair, i also have to admit that there are some who have real potential, and are eager and willing to learn. they simply had a goal and the means and opportunty to reach it, albeit not what we call conventionally. although i don't necessarily agree with the system, i can't fault someone for doing what they feel is right for them personally at that time in their life, and I'd rather fly with them, than a cocky know-it-all who thinks he's God in the cockpit. all i'm trying to say is that maybe rather than judge these guys as a whole, you could try and look at them on a case by case basis.
DHPFLYN
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Well I am sorry to hear that Colgan pilots are shi- on I don't like to see any pilots treated that way. I have seen on other sites and other posts that the reason people do that pft stuff is to skip all the low paying instructor time that I admit was not all that fun.
If you really think about all te instructing time about 90% did you no good to prepare you for the airlines. Mostly patern work in a 172. So I am not trying to pick sides just letting you know what I have heard.
If you really think about all te instructing time about 90% did you no good to prepare you for the airlines. Mostly patern work in a 172. So I am not trying to pick sides just letting you know what I have heard.
chperplt
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DHPFLYN,
I'm confused about something... maybe you can help me out.
You've started 5 threads about Colgan Air going back to last October. You've asked about bases, upgrade times, hiring minimums, and which aircraft the company is hiring into.
You've also asked about the hiring minimums for Xjet..
Your profile says you hold a Type Rating for a CRJ, an ERJ, the ATR, and the 737. You have 4000 hours or more.. Why would you be interested in getting on with Colgan or Xjet? I would think someone with your experience level would be looking to Airtran, ATA, Jetblue, and surely Southwest with that 737 Type.. What gives???
I'm confused about something... maybe you can help me out.
You've started 5 threads about Colgan Air going back to last October. You've asked about bases, upgrade times, hiring minimums, and which aircraft the company is hiring into.
You've also asked about the hiring minimums for Xjet..
Your profile says you hold a Type Rating for a CRJ, an ERJ, the ATR, and the 737. You have 4000 hours or more.. Why would you be interested in getting on with Colgan or Xjet? I would think someone with your experience level would be looking to Airtran, ATA, Jetblue, and surely Southwest with that 737 Type.. What gives???
pipejockey
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WhiteCloud
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Of course there's a huge difference in spending two years in full time military flight school as opposed learning to fly a C-152 at the local pea patch. With the right guidance and training a civilian 600 hours pilot can be pretty good too. Unfortunately the quality of civilian training and pilots is highly variable. The military product is much more consistent. Don't start the flames. I've never been a military pilot.pipejockey said:
deadstick
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Diatribe of an unemployed pilot
Disclaimer: No pilots were injured or killed in the making of this letter.
WhiteCloud, et al.
This isn't a flame, but you as a taxpayer would be amazed at the training that goes on in the military. One problem CAN be the contract training. The contractors are paid to graduate pilots. Another is that the military really needs pilots. The "bar" is raised and lowered at will. I know first-hand that one pilot was allowed to fail every checkride in the course up until the last phase before getting washed-out. They finally have a new program that gives the pilots more than 30 hours of training (old system) in the advanced aircraft before they report to their unit.
The military is a very good example of this left/right seat experience difference. Pilots leaving flight school have less than 200 hrs TT (with a lot of sim) and now they're SIC in a combat aircraft. The PIC of that aircraft might have less than 500 TT. Pre 9-11 most pilots flew 100-150 hrs A YEAR. So you COULD have a crew with a total of 7-800 hrs TT flying into combat. A 5000 hr PIC is very rare.
Not all low-time pilots are clueless. I have met several new graduates who were intelligent, articulate, and were motivated to learn everything they could. A role of the PIC is to mentor and teach the future PIC sitting to the right. It doesn't matter whether that person has 600 hrs or 2600 hrs. I understand and appreciate there are certain basics that the SIC should know, like how to read a map, use the radio, and fly. But it's the experience and wisdom passed on to that SIC which shapes the way s/he will perform as a PIC. I've been reading a post about the ERJ and static problems. While on a flight with a newbie, let George fly and discuss scenarios and pass along a "There I was..." story. Sharing experiences, mentoring, and never stop learning are trademarks of professionals. One of the SIC's jobs is to keep learning after IOE, etc. If you get one who is thick-headed and refuses, then eventually that person might need an little, informal sit-down/come-to-Jesus meeting. A little help with his/her cranial-rectaI inversion can be an eye-opener. Otherwise, the person in the other seat is a crewmember and your responsibility.
If there is a problem with their performance, then talk to the training department and HR. They had that pilot first and maybe they need to change something. As far as a pilot being a PFTer or having too few hours, well, I have a problem with the violent bashing that has been going on. First, the company hired these people. Direct your frustration at the right person. Let’s look at history. In the early 80’s, somebody with 6000TT, 5000 ME, 3000 turbine PIC couldn’t get hired. In the early 90’s many companies were PFT, like CAL Express, ValueJet, NetJets, and ACA. In the late 90’s anybody with a CMEL, 1000 TT, and 100ME could get in. How many people got hired in that wave? How many of the captains who finally got hired in the 80’s (i.e. REALLY high time pilots) do you thing believed that _you guys_ who got hired in the late 90’s were too inexperienced and hadn’t paid _your_ dues? How far will you get if you start bashing PFTers and it turns out the captain interviewing you (baited, trick question?) PFTed in the 90’s? You may have been on the receiving end of this and not know it because the internet was in its infancy.
Finally, if you are against PFT, does that mean that nobody should pay for graduate school? What about medical or law school? Just think what that would do to undergrad tuition (because somebody has to pay). Most med students graduate with a $120k in loans and make less than $30k in residency. That’s a mortgage payment right there. They wanted to be doctors so they got loans. Peter Pilot wants to fly for an airline so he gets a loan. What’s the difference?
That's it. Sermon over.
Dismissed.
Disclaimer: No pilots were injured or killed in the making of this letter.
WhiteCloud, et al.
This isn't a flame, but you as a taxpayer would be amazed at the training that goes on in the military. One problem CAN be the contract training. The contractors are paid to graduate pilots. Another is that the military really needs pilots. The "bar" is raised and lowered at will. I know first-hand that one pilot was allowed to fail every checkride in the course up until the last phase before getting washed-out. They finally have a new program that gives the pilots more than 30 hours of training (old system) in the advanced aircraft before they report to their unit.
The military is a very good example of this left/right seat experience difference. Pilots leaving flight school have less than 200 hrs TT (with a lot of sim) and now they're SIC in a combat aircraft. The PIC of that aircraft might have less than 500 TT. Pre 9-11 most pilots flew 100-150 hrs A YEAR. So you COULD have a crew with a total of 7-800 hrs TT flying into combat. A 5000 hr PIC is very rare.
Not all low-time pilots are clueless. I have met several new graduates who were intelligent, articulate, and were motivated to learn everything they could. A role of the PIC is to mentor and teach the future PIC sitting to the right. It doesn't matter whether that person has 600 hrs or 2600 hrs. I understand and appreciate there are certain basics that the SIC should know, like how to read a map, use the radio, and fly. But it's the experience and wisdom passed on to that SIC which shapes the way s/he will perform as a PIC. I've been reading a post about the ERJ and static problems. While on a flight with a newbie, let George fly and discuss scenarios and pass along a "There I was..." story. Sharing experiences, mentoring, and never stop learning are trademarks of professionals. One of the SIC's jobs is to keep learning after IOE, etc. If you get one who is thick-headed and refuses, then eventually that person might need an little, informal sit-down/come-to-Jesus meeting. A little help with his/her cranial-rectaI inversion can be an eye-opener. Otherwise, the person in the other seat is a crewmember and your responsibility.
If there is a problem with their performance, then talk to the training department and HR. They had that pilot first and maybe they need to change something. As far as a pilot being a PFTer or having too few hours, well, I have a problem with the violent bashing that has been going on. First, the company hired these people. Direct your frustration at the right person. Let’s look at history. In the early 80’s, somebody with 6000TT, 5000 ME, 3000 turbine PIC couldn’t get hired. In the early 90’s many companies were PFT, like CAL Express, ValueJet, NetJets, and ACA. In the late 90’s anybody with a CMEL, 1000 TT, and 100ME could get in. How many people got hired in that wave? How many of the captains who finally got hired in the 80’s (i.e. REALLY high time pilots) do you thing believed that _you guys_ who got hired in the late 90’s were too inexperienced and hadn’t paid _your_ dues? How far will you get if you start bashing PFTers and it turns out the captain interviewing you (baited, trick question?) PFTed in the 90’s? You may have been on the receiving end of this and not know it because the internet was in its infancy.
Finally, if you are against PFT, does that mean that nobody should pay for graduate school? What about medical or law school? Just think what that would do to undergrad tuition (because somebody has to pay). Most med students graduate with a $120k in loans and make less than $30k in residency. That’s a mortgage payment right there. They wanted to be doctors so they got loans. Peter Pilot wants to fly for an airline so he gets a loan. What’s the difference?
That's it. Sermon over.
Dismissed.
BritishGuy
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The military aside - in Europe fresh JAR/JAA Pilots having completed their ATPL courses with a mere 250 hrs get positions flying 737-800 with easyjet / ryanair without too much problems. Many of the older more experienced people say that some of these new guys that come thought fly like it's second nature, while some of the new guys have problems. So maybe - its something based upon personal ability (and quality training) as opposed to just being a 'low timer'.
chperplt
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Not a very strong argument.
BritishGuy
You are corrent in that many European countries put low time guys in jets. Take a look at the accident/incident rates for those airlines. How many accidents did China Air have in the past 4 or 5 years with those low time guys????
Take yourself and your goals out of the equation. Would you, as a passenger, want someone with 600 hours flying the airplane you and your family are on?
deadstick
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, if you are against PFT, does that mean that nobody should pay for graduate school? What about medical or law school
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a very strong argument.
chperplt,
Aviation, medicine and law are three fields inwhich people have the _potential_ to make a lot of money. Assuming that a college is on the level of a zero-to-hero flight school that results in a commercial license and an instructor ticket or two, the next step is post-graduate.
Yea you can get a job fresh out of school, but even a BA/BS has become the norm. So what is the exception? Post graduate degrees. Post graduate is anything like an MBA, MA, MS, as well as the MD and JD. They all cost money the college grad (for the most part) has to ante up. So what's the difference with our profession?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, if you are against PFT, does that mean that nobody should pay for graduate school? What about medical or law school
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a very strong argument.
chperplt,
Aviation, medicine and law are three fields inwhich people have the _potential_ to make a lot of money. Assuming that a college is on the level of a zero-to-hero flight school that results in a commercial license and an instructor ticket or two, the next step is post-graduate.
Yea you can get a job fresh out of school, but even a BA/BS has become the norm. So what is the exception? Post graduate degrees. Post graduate is anything like an MBA, MA, MS, as well as the MD and JD. They all cost money the college grad (for the most part) has to ante up. So what's the difference with our profession?
chperplt
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A post graduate degree is just that.... a degree. It's a process where the student is educated in a classroom environment. You are paying for an education. PFTers are paying for experience that shouldn't be gained at the customers expense.
Sure, med students spend their last year of med school in the hospital. The difference being the patient knows they are at a teaching hospital, and can request another DR. to treat them.
How many passengers would get on the airplane if they had a sign in the terminal that said.. Folks, you are getting on a flight where the first officer has paid a large amount of money to occupy his seat. He has very limited experience and this will be his first flight actually going into the clouds. BUT FOLKS.. there is no need to worry. While the FO will be admiring the view, the Captain will be monitoring the control of the airplane, listening to the radio, looking for traffic, trying to teach the FO, and keep all of you safe.
Everything I described the captain doing, he would be doing regardless. In a real crew environment, the FO would be doing many of those same tasks as well. In a PFT environment, the captain is the only one looking after the flight.
There is a big difference between PFTing and going to grad school.
Sure, med students spend their last year of med school in the hospital. The difference being the patient knows they are at a teaching hospital, and can request another DR. to treat them.
How many passengers would get on the airplane if they had a sign in the terminal that said.. Folks, you are getting on a flight where the first officer has paid a large amount of money to occupy his seat. He has very limited experience and this will be his first flight actually going into the clouds. BUT FOLKS.. there is no need to worry. While the FO will be admiring the view, the Captain will be monitoring the control of the airplane, listening to the radio, looking for traffic, trying to teach the FO, and keep all of you safe.
Everything I described the captain doing, he would be doing regardless. In a real crew environment, the FO would be doing many of those same tasks as well. In a PFT environment, the captain is the only one looking after the flight.
There is a big difference between PFTing and going to grad school.
deadstick
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You have a point with the teaching hospital. I didn't imagine the PFT environment you discribed. I feel a crew is a crew, not a pilot and one more passenger.
I agree that the system you outlined is total BS, and not the degree. I also feel that the PFT/INDOC/aircraft training is"...a process where the student is educated in a classroom environment. You are paying for an education." I see this as a difference between the Gulfstream Acad's that keep you for 250 hrs and then show you the door vs Colgan or other outfits where you are paying for the initial training (the education) and then you have a job -- no 250 hr limit. Like I said earlier, I can't see how they can give a company all that money and not want a type rating (the degree).
I agree that the system you outlined is total BS, and not the degree. I also feel that the PFT/INDOC/aircraft training is"...a process where the student is educated in a classroom environment. You are paying for an education." I see this as a difference between the Gulfstream Acad's that keep you for 250 hrs and then show you the door vs Colgan or other outfits where you are paying for the initial training (the education) and then you have a job -- no 250 hr limit. Like I said earlier, I can't see how they can give a company all that money and not want a type rating (the degree).
chperplt
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Colgan offers it's PFTers a type if they chose. The problem being, the type ride is much harder for the low time PFter than the standard FO ride. You can train to proficiency on the FO ride, but have to hit everything the first time on the type ride. It would suck to get a pink slip that early in your career.
Time to watch some auto racing..
Time to watch some auto racing..
chperplt
You are incorrect about the low time accident rates, including China Airlines. The accidents China Airlines has encountered has been with all high time ex-military pilots, not low time cadets. Cathay Pacific, Dragonair, Japan Airlines, ANA, China Airlines, China Southern, Shanghai Air, Singapore Airlines, British Airways, Rynair, Easy Jet, Brittania, Lufthansa, Emirates..... I could go on and on with the airlines around the world that put 250 hour kids into real jet equipment, not 1900's. These airlines are a hell of alot bigger than Colgan, and it is widely known to passengers that many of their pilots come from airline training academies. My cousin is an ex-cadet at Cathay, his first aircaft was a 747, he is now a captain on a 777, sorry, NO accidents. Not one of these airlines has ecountered an accident/incident due to low time guys being in the cockpit. Do you actually think insurance companies would insure these guys with high accident rates associated with low time pilots?
No way.
You are incorrect about the low time accident rates, including China Airlines. The accidents China Airlines has encountered has been with all high time ex-military pilots, not low time cadets. Cathay Pacific, Dragonair, Japan Airlines, ANA, China Airlines, China Southern, Shanghai Air, Singapore Airlines, British Airways, Rynair, Easy Jet, Brittania, Lufthansa, Emirates..... I could go on and on with the airlines around the world that put 250 hour kids into real jet equipment, not 1900's. These airlines are a hell of alot bigger than Colgan, and it is widely known to passengers that many of their pilots come from airline training academies. My cousin is an ex-cadet at Cathay, his first aircaft was a 747, he is now a captain on a 777, sorry, NO accidents. Not one of these airlines has ecountered an accident/incident due to low time guys being in the cockpit. Do you actually think insurance companies would insure these guys with high accident rates associated with low time pilots?
No way.
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Gotta say cherplt is one of the best captains I've flown with too and I think he knows what he's talking about. CX, QF, CHina Air, they all hire as 2nd officers don't they? So after 5 years or so sitting on the jump seat you should have a pretty good idea of how the airplane flies. A friend used to instruct at the china air cadet program in perth and told me all the stories of 250 hour pilots in the citation.
WhiteCloud
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chperplt said:
I wouldn't mind if they had been properly trained AND had a Captain with appropriate experience. It doesn't take 5000 hours to figure all this out. If, as you say, Colgan is turning out inadequate pilots, it's more of a reflection of their training program not matching the needs of the pilots they hire.
Druglord,
To add to your post, generally only Cathay has Second Officers that act as "cruise pilots". Most every other airline that hires cadets has them right seat from the get go. And to add to that, the average upgrade from cadet Second Officer to Junior First Officer at Cathay is LESS than 3 years. As of this year.
Maybe Typhoon Pilot can chime in here with regards to cadets at Emirates.
To add to your post, generally only Cathay has Second Officers that act as "cruise pilots". Most every other airline that hires cadets has them right seat from the get go. And to add to that, the average upgrade from cadet Second Officer to Junior First Officer at Cathay is LESS than 3 years. As of this year.
Maybe Typhoon Pilot can chime in here with regards to cadets at Emirates.
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Well halfmoon,
since you are so "educated", why don't you post the details of the incidents/accidents you speak of (carrier/date/incident), with the applicable cadet/pilots name and total time. And also where it stated the applicable pilot was a cadet. Since you are so sure about your "facts".
Considering Dragonair has NOT YET upgraded their first cadet captain. And Cathay currenly has less than 5 captains, who started with the carrier as cadets.
since you are so "educated", why don't you post the details of the incidents/accidents you speak of (carrier/date/incident), with the applicable cadet/pilots name and total time. And also where it stated the applicable pilot was a cadet. Since you are so sure about your "facts".
Considering Dragonair has NOT YET upgraded their first cadet captain. And Cathay currenly has less than 5 captains, who started with the carrier as cadets.
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