Colgan Airlines stall recovery

[Andy Neill]

Actually they were at flaps 15:

22:16:23.5
HOT-1 flaps fifteen before landing checklist.
22:16:26.0
CAM [sound similar to flap handle movement]

Actually, it looks like flaps 10 according to the FDR based animation. That is also consistent with what has been stated as Colgan procedure to stop at intermediate increments like flaps 10 prior to flaps 15.

 

[LazyLightnin']

He got stick shaker and pitched up to 25 degrees for 7 seconds before getting stick pusher. I'm still scratching my head. That would have been perfect for demonstrating MCA. Flame me all you want, but I can't help but think.. "buffoon".

 

[777forever]

If pilot error is to blame, it is the training program that should be primarily blamed. Stall profiles at airlines need to be changed. And not to mention, fatiuge and scheduling rules need to be changed, but the FAA will not give a rats as$ when power airline lobbyists use their "pressure."

Why is the training program to be blamed? All my training from private to 121 has taught the same type of recovery from a stall. Lower nose, increase airspeed, pitch up when sufficient airflow over wings, and level off and clean it up at previous altitude.

Raise your hand if you've been taught by a Part 121 airline during the stall recovery section of simulator training to not lose altitude at all costs, no matter how long you keep it in the shaker, how much you ride the barber pole, and how close you get to a pusher.

"Don't let the nose drop!"

I know my 121 training didn't tell me to pitch up to 31 degrees at full power with airspeed decaying...

I will continue to believe that this crash was not a result of a poor training program, but of distraction and fatigue.

 

[Flyer1015]

Why is the training program to be blamed? All my training from private to 121 has taught the same type of recovery from a stall. Lower nose, increase airspeed, pitch up when sufficient airflow over wings, and level off and clean it up at previous altitude.

If you do max power and IMMEDIATELY lower the nose, the shaker will stop, and that is not what we were taught in the sim.

Sorry, hard to believe that your training program INITIALLY told you to lower the nose! At my airline, on the CRJ, for both the take off stall and landing stall, you do max power, and you DO NOT lower the nose initially. In fact, in the landing stall, we were taught to hold a lil back pressure to keep it in the flight director. For the takeoff stall, we were taught to hold it back (in the shaker) and let the airspeed increase, while the shaker continues to go off. ONLY ONCE AIRSPEED came back up and VSI was creeping up, DID WE FINALLY DROP THE NOSE and then clean up per profile and maintain original altitude and entry speed (200KIAS).

 

[Flyer1015]

I know my 121 training didn't tell me to pitch up to 31 degrees at full power with airspeed decaying...

You would had you perceived it to be a tailplane icing stall.

 

[Flyer1015]

He got stick shaker and pitched up to 25 degrees for 7 seconds before getting stick pusher. I'm still scratching my head. That would have been perfect for demonstrating MCA. Flame me all you want, but I can't help but think.. "buffoon".

So was Sten Molin a buffoon, too?

 

[Abernathy]

Why is the training program to be blamed? All my training from private to 121 has taught the same type of recovery from a stall. Lower nose, increase airspeed, pitch up when sufficient airflow over wings, and level off and clean it up at previous altitude.



I know my 121 training didn't tell me to pitch up to 31 degrees at full power with airspeed decaying...

I will continue to believe that this crash was not a result of a poor training program, but of distraction and fatigue.

I have to agree that at least at my airline, on either airplane, we were never taught to pull up when we got the stick shaker. That's fundamental flying stuff you learn from the very beginning. And I've never been told "not to lose any altitude." If I ever pitched up more than my current attitude during a power off stall (not to mention, 30 degrees with a trend vector aiming for Hades), I believe it would get an unsat.

Watching the animation, it almost looks like the CA had a certain "flow" in his mind (gotta get the flaps at 5 HERE, gotta get the flaps 15 HERE)--airspeed and other exogenous factors (icing?) be damned.

And why the FO put the flaps up without being called for (even if they were called for at that point) boggles my mind.

 

[BLing]

If it is even a possibility an airplane can stall, then at some point, there will be a stall. Inadvertant, of course, but you are in NO position to judge the other person. There can be a multitude of reasons. OBVIOUSLY IT WAS UN-INTENTIONAL. No one wakes up and says, yup, I'm gonna stall and crash this plane today! It was an un-desired state the aircraft ended up in, and then a botched recovery due largely to a POOR training program. Add to this LONG TIRING SCHEDULES, tiredness from a long day, fatigue, and you get a recipe in which an UN-DESIRED state can occurn in an aircraft (re: stall).

There is no single cause for an accident, but a bunch of links coming together to form the chain.

Like 99% of other pilots out there, I dont stall airplanes, therefore not needing to see if my training department has taught me proper stall recovery.

You want to bring up the chain...

- GIA
- Busted rides 1 - 5 (2 at Colgan)
- Colgan allowing this into the left seat of an airliner
- Pointless converseation below 10 diverting attention from the flight
- Stall

Not everybody is cut out to be a pilot. For years this sort of accident was predicted on FI and it has happend. As an RJ driver I am embarrased to see the level of skill out on the line. Not to say I havent had some interesting jumpseat experiences on mainline though....

 

[DashCojones]

If it's true that this CA only reported one of his failures to Colgan, may his eternal soul burn in hell.

 

[LazyLightnin']

So was Sten Molin a buffoon, too?

You can name a hundred other men who in the past have caused a crash and it doesn't change the fact that this buffoon did the complete opposite for a stall recovery.