Colgan Airlines stall recovery

[Flyer1015]

because you should NEVER unintentionally stall an aircraft...

You're right, and you should never crash a perfectly flying widebody into the Everglades over one malfunctioning light bulb. And you should never slam a perfectly flying 757 into a Columbian mountainside over a FMS/lost issue. And you should never take off on the wrong runway, especially when it's only 3,500 feet long. But you know what? Sh*t happens.

Give me an airplane, and I will give you a situation in which someone, even an experienced pilot, will end in an UNDESIRABLE state. And I include an approach to stall in this. Things happen, and all we can do is study it, learn from it, and modify whatever needs to be fixed. There is no doubt the Colgain training department could use an overhaul/change. And, there is no doubt that current scheduling/rest regulations could use a change, along with addressing fatigue issues.

 

[LazyLightnin']

You're right, and you should never crash a perfectly flying widebody into the Everglades over one malfunctioning light bulb. And you should never slam a perfectly flying 757 into a Columbian mountainside over a FMS/lost issue. And you should never take off on the wrong runway, especially when it's only 3,500 feet long. But you know what? Sh*t happens.

Give me an airplane, and I will give you a situation in which someone, even an experienced pilot, will end in an UNDESIRABLE state. And I include an approach to stall in this. Things happen, and all we can do is study it, learn from it, and modify whatever needs to be fixed. There is no doubt the Colgain training department could use an overhaul/change. And, there is no doubt that current scheduling/rest regulations could use a change, along with addressing fatigue issues.

I appreciate your loyalty, but in your examples you are only comparing lack of CRM and SA with lack of stick and rudders skills.

 

[Flyer1015]

I appreciate your loyalty, but in your examples you are only comparing lack of CRM and SA with lack of stick and rudders skills.

Oops, ok lack of stick and rudder skills perfectly highlights the last major legacy disaster, AA over Belle Harbor. Who would have thought that FULL deflections of the rudder, to the stop, each way, 6 times in a row, could have resulted in the rudder snapping off?

There have been plenty of crashes that have been a result of a lack of stick/rudder skills. Time will tell, but don't be surprised if the recent Fedex crash ends up falling in the same category.

 

[Top Gum]

Was anything ever determined on the cause of the recent fedex crash?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The FedEx crash will, like this one, have alot more factors than just stick and rudder skills.

 

[F/O]

Yep.

Its negative training. I'm trained to perform a stall maneuver....Not recover from an inadvertent stall that I got myself into.

True, but an actual inadvertent stall recovery should be EASIER. We have all done 'em in the sim. You have a laundry list of configuration crap to remember for the entry and recovery, including power settings, etc. If one happened in real life I'm sure most people would revert to "old school" crap. Power, pitch, FLY OUT OF IT. You aren't demonstrating in for a check airman, you are trying to save your life. It just seems this guy was out to lunch on basic airmanship he should have remembered from his 3rd or 4th private lesson.

 

[Top Gum]

Was this guy out to lunch when the shaker went off or what? Did they do anything? The shaker should have started well before the stall and pusher. It should have allowed plenty of time to initiate a recovery prior to the stall and pusher.

So they were just trolling along waiting on the loc and forgot to add power after they leveled off. Then the shaker started. Then it kept going off. Then it stalled and then the pusher kicked in. Then he pulls back. Wtf.

I’m just having a hard time with all of this.

 

[Minimaniac]

Raise your hand if you've been taught by a Part 121 airline during the stall recovery section of simulator training to not lose altitude at all costs, no matter how long you keep it in the shaker, how much you ride the barber pole, and how close you get to a pusher.

"Don't let the nose drop!"

Um, nope. While the final test standard for a level flight stall was up to 100 feet of altitude loss, I never failed if I lost 120 feet. I have been instructed to fly until the pusher to get a feel for it, but I also have been taught to get the heck away from the pusher. If the pusher is on, you are in way too deep. And in any deep stall, you are going to have to accept an altitude loss. For a shaker only "stall", there is no reason to lose altitude (100 feet allowable). For a full stall, it has always been about getting the airplane flying again. End of story.

This has been my training experience at three carriers. I can understand your experience may have been different. It happens.

 

[AEROSQUADRON69]

We can all sit here and say this and that. Clearly the basics were lost. Call it a "MOMENTARY LAPSE OF REASON"

They got slow, got spooked at shaker, yanked back on the stick. The rest is history. Sad, but true.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Was this guy out to lunch when the shaker went off or what? Did they do anything? The shaker should have started well before the stall and pusher. It should have allowed plenty of time to initiate a recovery prior to the stall and pusher.

So they were just trolling along waiting on the loc and forgot to add power after they leveled off. Then the shaker started. Then it kept going off. Then it stalled and then the pusher kicked in. Then he pulls back. Wtf.

I’m just having a hard time with all of this.

Yep. 6 seconds of shaker to be exact. And then pusher. This is all while continually increasing pitch.

 

[HOMER D POE]

rebecca raised the flaps without a request..

Did the FO raising the flaps and thereby killing what lift they had with gear and ice cause this crash?
the transcripts show no call for flaps up... sounds pretty much like she helped this plane crash...

 

[LazyLightnin']

Did the FO raising the flaps and thereby killing what lift they had with gear and ice cause this crash?
the transcripts show no call for flaps up... sounds pretty much like she helped this plane crash...

What she should have done is gone into flight instructor mode. That is, if she had one.

 

[Flyer1015]

Listen to all you sounding like God's gift to aviation and, from the comfort of your leather seat in front of your PC, crucifying the crew and their actions.

Why don't ya'll STFU until the official and final report comes out, and see what recommendations it puts out? My bet? Changes in stall profiles for all airlines, stall training TO INCLUDE pusher, etc.

 

[Flyer1015]

Was anything ever determined on the cause of the recent fedex crash?

No, but neither was anything officially released by the NTSB about Colgan, when everybody started to "assume" tail plane icing and an icing over accident, and that turboprops must be unsafe, etc. etc. etc.

 

[enigma]

I'm just not sure what there is to learn from this accident, really.

discipline is necessary for continued life

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

Flyer, I am amazed at your refusal to see the obvious and instead rationalize away the fact that this guy - this crew - screwed up in a big, unacceptable way. They stalled the airplane. Stalled it. It matters not that possibly you or I might do the same someday, or something equally stupid. If you or I do, then we would fully deserve the blame for the resulting senseless accident. If I were a betting man, my money would be that this accident will be squarely placed on the shoulders of the crew, in particular the pilot. Contributing factors may very well end up being training, work environment, etc., but they will almost certainly not be be considered causal.

 

[LJ45]

Instead of three boring stall maneuvers in the block during sim, how about one at altitude, one with your eyes closed ( similar to unusual att. recovery).? Along the way, learn some basic airmanship. i.e. stick and rudder skills, instrument scan.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Listen to all you sounding like God's gift to aviation and, from the comfort of your leather seat in front of your PC, crucifying the crew and their actions.

Why don't ya'll STFU until the official and final report comes out, and see what recommendations it puts out? My bet? Changes in stall profiles for all airlines, stall training TO INCLUDE pusher, etc.

Look. No one wanted this accident to happen. And I certainly do not enjoy the fact that it is the current topic of discussion, nor do I think so highly of myself that nothing bad can ever happen. But the fact of the matter is, the OFFICIAL facts have been disclosed. The crew screwed up. And on the FINAL report it will say crew error. Pilot’s failure to maintain adequate airspeed, resulting in an accelerated stall at an altitude too low for recovery. With a list of many other contributing factors. They just got way too behind that airplane and never caught up. I'm sorry that's too sad for you to grasp. You made your bet and now I'm making mine.


Even the uber-professionals feel this way.
"Wally Warner, a Bombardier test pilot who testified Tuesday, said he believes that the pilot could have overcome the stall that caused the crash"
"Obviously, the initial reaction to the stall warning was incorrect, and that set the course of action for what followed", Warner said.

 

[climbhappy]

really, the report is 7/8 of the way if not 9/10 out. is it not.?

 

[30West]

Apparently it is the following procedure:

1) do not add power.
2) pull on the stick pusher as it is trying to push forward.
3) retract flaps.
4) retract gear.

Yes, I feel these guys are being pretty badly hammered in the media. But someone please help me to understand this...

Not on the Saab. What are you getting at here, exactly?