Colgan Airlines stall recovery

[xjhawk]

I do not like reading all this speculation. Let the FAA do their thing and have some respect for everyone involved. You armchair experts are just giving ammo to all the other know it alls. Yes it is looking like mistakes were made, but what we should take from that is how to better improve our programs.

 

[Thurman Merman]

So if the low speed que goes up there is still a visual indication, right? You'd still just keep the airspeed out of the red?

Yeah, you'd see the red floor come up, and when the airspeed dips into it, you get the shaker.

It is a bad design in my opinion with the increase ref speed switch. The switch can be on, speed can be bugged ref +20 and if it's turbulent like it is in the northeast so often, you can get +/- 20 kts movement on your airspeed and it's a very sensitive A/S ind. Every little bumb you're seeing +5 kt fluctuation.

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

At my airline, stall recovery training encourages minimal altitude loss, but does recognize that a couple hundred feet may be lost during the recovery. Recovery focuses on decreasing the angle of attack and leveling the wings while simultaneously adding full power. Secondary stalls are frowned upon heavily and will cause a repeat of the stall demonstration.

 

[MasterOfYaw]

Have to agree with flyf15, the current protocol demands that you not lose altitude during stall recovery, which requires you to pull the stick back to recover from a stall! Is this ATP PTS? If so, then the blame lies with the FAA. But of course, this whole thing will be blamed on "nonessential communications below 10,000."

From faa.gov ATP PTS:

4. While maintaining altitude, slowly establishes the pitch attitude (using trim or elevator/stabilizer), bank angle, and power setting that will induce a stall.
5. Announces the first indication of an impending stall (such as buffeting, stick shaker, decay of control effectiveness, and any other cues related to the specific airplane design characteristics) and initiates recovery (using maximum power or as directed by the examiner).
6. Recovers to a reference airspeed, altitude and heading with minimal loss of altitude, airspeed, and heading deviation.
7. Demonstrates smooth, positive control during entry, approach to a stall, and recovery.

No 121 or regional experience, just military and 135, but stall recovery technique has been pretty consistent: full power, ease back pressure, minimize altitude loss. Knowing what little we know so far, it doesn't appear we can blame the FAA's stall demonstration requirements for this one.
MofY​

 

[T-prop]

Actually they were at flaps 15:

22:16:23.5
HOT-1 flaps fifteen before landing checklist.
22:16:26.0
CAM [sound similar to flap handle movement]

22:16:11

Speed and configuration was OK till LOC alive 180kts flaps 5. He went flight idle and condition levers (props) max. That's a great technique to kill airspeed when doing 250 knots at the marker (high and fast). Doing that at 180 kts and level is not a good technique. He lost nearly 50 knots in 13 seconds. He didn't increase power till shaker.

22:16:24

He called for flaps 15 when he was already at 137kts... no power increase. The sound similar to flap handle movement happened 1 second later at 135 kts... way too slow before flaps indicate 15.


Here is the animation.

http://usat.gannett.a.mms.mavenapps...4b4e3f6b392e8&maven_referralObject=1120901984

 

[Snaab]

You are wrong Fly91. She was saying what she was thinking on her first day of groundschool at Colgan. Had you read the CVR rather than just posting what the media thinks it says, you would know that.

BINGO! This is true. Too bad people with journalism degrees at, say, the Washington Post missed this point.

 

[Flyer1015]

full power, ease back pressure, minimize altitude loss.

"ease back pressure": not initially, because this hits it on the head:

"to not lose altitude at all costs, no matter how long you keep it in the shaker, how much you ride the barber pole, and how close you get to a pusher."

"Keep it in there, son, hold it, HOLD IT! [shaker continues to go off]. that's it, hold it! now finally speed is coming back up, ok, now pitch down and keep it within a 100 (100 feet, plus/minus). Wow. Gone should be those days. Our airline has already done away with official stall profiles, surprisingly, right around/after the Colgan crash. In the sim, get ready for full stall recoveries, to the pusher.

 

[Fred Rogers]

Have some consideration JERK

They just released the transcripts from the FDR.

Looks like they had a couple of real winner pilots on that flight.

The copilot was saying, on the recorder, ((paraphrasing)) "I've never seen ice before, I've never had to deice before, I never want to see ice like this, I never want to make a deicing decision like this, I would be afraid we were going to crash."

The captain failed 3 flight checks before this flight, in recent months.

When will airlines stop hiring women just because they are "women" and cannot truly do the job. And when will they stop keeping crap pilots on the line just becuase the scumbag unions will cause trouble. You fail a flight check, you get one more shot....if you fail again....you're ass is fired for good. Peoples lives are on the line, its not a friggin joke. The airlines have some of the worst pilots in the world, why??? Because of the scumbag unions. Wonderful!!!!!!!!!

What a pathetic industry the airlines are. Its laughable.

Well I was sick of listening to the "experts" on the news so I thought I'd get on flightinfo.com and listen to the TOTAL (EXPLATIVE) MORONS.

Goal accomplished. Recommend to moderator to ban this tool from FI. Anyone who would post something like that deterioriates the discussion beyond acceptability, and that is REALLY SAYING something on this website!

 

[another cfii]

Here is the animation.

http://usat.gannett.a.mms.mavenapps...4b4e3f6b392e8&maven_referralObject=1120901984

Thanks for the link. Does the real q400 has glass pfd like the one shown in the video? How about autothrottle? AOA indicator?

Everytime I watch one of these, it just reminds me that we're all vulnerable at one point of our career...

 

[TheInsider]

Raise your hand if you've been taught by a Part 121 airline during the stall recovery section of simulator training to not lose altitude at all costs, no matter how long you keep it in the shaker, how much you ride the barber pole, and how close you get to a pusher.

"Don't let the nose drop!"

Never been told that and never taught it like that.

 

[flynryan15]

Just curious does the Q400 have a trend vector on the air speed tape?

 

[Thurman Merman]

Just curious does the Q400 have a trend vector on the air speed tape?

Yes, it does.

 

[Thurman Merman]

Thanks for the link. Does the real q400 has glass pfd like the one shown in the video? How about autothrottle? AOA indicator?

Everytime I watch one of these, it just reminds me that we're all vulnerable at one point of our career...

Yes on the PFD, the Q400 has 5 flat screen display CA/FO-PFD, MFD and 1 ED (engine dispaly). No autothrottle, but FADEC, no AOA.

 

[flynryan15]

Yes, it does.

I can only reference the ERJ, but I am assuming that it would have been full down once flaps 5 was selected?

 

[BLing]

Everybody here is missing the real point. DONT STALL!!! Its really not that hard. Stall recovery profiles should NEVER be used on the line because you should NEVER unintentionally stall an aircraft...

 

[flynryan15]

Everybody here is missing the real point. DONT STALL!!! Its really not that hard. Stall recovery profiles should NEVER be used on the line because you should NEVER unintentionally stall an aircraft...

Agreed!!

 

[F/O]

It's not like it was a beautiful CAVU spring day where they both could have been distracted by something out the window. In icing conditions you would be glancing out the window at the leading edges from time to time, but other than that wouldn't you be mostly staring at the PFD right in front of your face? The one with the amber and red vertical tape thingy showing the airspeed dropping through the floor at an alarming rate?

 

[lowtimedriver]

Colgan FO:

22:16:26.6
HOT-2
uhhh.

The stick shaker started about a second later. You think she saw something?

I think she may have notice something wasn't right even earlier at 16.07. On the actual tape, she definitely sounded distressed when she was handed over to the tower.

 

[Flyer1015]

Everybody here is missing the real point. DONT STALL!!! Its really not that hard. Stall recovery profiles should NEVER be used on the line because you should NEVER unintentionally stall an aircraft...

If it is even a possibility an airplane can stall, then at some point, there will be a stall. Inadvertant, of course, but you are in NO position to judge the other person. There can be a multitude of reasons. OBVIOUSLY IT WAS UN-INTENTIONAL. No one wakes up and says, yup, I'm gonna stall and crash this plane today! It was an un-desired state the aircraft ended up in, and then a botched recovery due largely to a POOR training program. Add to this LONG TIRING SCHEDULES, tiredness from a long day, fatigue, and you get a recipe in which an UN-DESIRED state can occurn in an aircraft (re: stall).

There is no single cause for an accident, but a bunch of links coming together to form the chain.

 

[lowtimedriver]

There is no single cause for an accident, but a bunch of links coming together to form the chain.

Like non-stop chitter chatter while conducting an ILS approach in icing conditions?