Colgan 3407 NTSB Animation

[Flyer1015]

primary persons responsible. 1) Captain- he's Pilot in Command and has the ultimate responsibility for the safety of that aircraft. 2) SIC, she should have spoken up sooner. Let's not forget she is a REQUIRED crew member and "checked out" on the aircraft.
Bottom line, I understand there were contributing factors relating to th crash. There always are. But we must put primary blame on the Flight crew for Pilot Error. They made a student pilot mistake. They allowed the aircraft to run out of airspeed and fall out of the sky. When the stall occured, the Captain NEVER lowered the noise/angle of attack. UNACCEPTABLE!!!

Then if you blame this on pilot error, then every single recent crash is all to be blamed on pilot error: Comair taking off on wrong runway, AA pilot slamming rudder full deflections each way to the stop, snapping off tail, continuing in a storm to overrun a runway at LIT, slamming a perfectly fine 757 into a Columbian mountainside, and even the most recent Fedex crash in Japan. Do you blame pilot error and throw everyone under the bus?

"When the stall occured, the Captain NEVER lowered the noise/angle of attack. UNACCEPTABLE!!!"

Maybe he did what he did in the sim, and the way the training program taught him. I can tell you as a FACT that at our airline, on the CRJ, we are NOT told *initially* to lower the nose when the stick shaker goes off. We are taught max power, and minimize altitude loss by "staying" in the shaker (in some cases, this actually means slight BACK pressure), while letting the airspeed come up and VSI trend to increase. Only when that happens do we FINALLY lower the nose.

As I said, this is a training issue. At our airline, we've already done away with all 3 stall profiles. GONE. Now we just have a one page generic stall recovery procedure. No profiles. As for the repercussions from this accident, get ready for a complete change/overhaul in stall recovery procedures, and stall training all the way to the pusher.

 

[LazyLightnin']

I don't give a rat's ass what the training department teaches. In this case, if what is taught ain't working, it goes out the window. You can train a monkey to recover from a stall, but a captain should know that at some point your airspeed needs to get out of the "red snaky thingy"!.

And besides, what training department teaches a 30 degree nose up recovery?! I don't think so. In an RJ or a 400.

 

[777forever]

Then if you blame this on pilot error, then every single recent crash is all to be blamed on pilot error: Comair taking off on wrong runway, AA pilot slamming rudder full deflections each way to the stop, snapping off tail, continuing in a storm to overrun a runway at LIT, slamming a perfectly fine 757 into a Columbian mountainside, and even the most recent Fedex crash in Japan. Do you blame pilot error and throw everyone under the bus?

"When the stall occured, the Captain NEVER lowered the noise/angle of attack. UNACCEPTABLE!!!"

Maybe he did what he did in the sim, and the way the training program taught him. I can tell you as a FACT that at our airline, on the CRJ, we are NOT told *initially* to lower the nose when the stick shaker goes off. We are taught max power, and minimize altitude loss by "staying" in the shaker (in some cases, this actually means slight BACK pressure), while letting the airspeed come up and VSI trend to increase. Only when that happens do we FINALLY lower the nose.

As I said, this is a training issue. At our airline, we've already done away with all 3 stall profiles. GONE. Now we just have a one page generic stall recovery procedure. No profiles. As for the repercussions from this accident, get ready for a complete change/overhaul in stall recovery procedures, and stall training all the way to the pusher.

Key word..SLIGHT Back pressure. Not hold the hold in your lap and override the pusher. I HIGHLY doubt Colgan trained to recover from a stall like that. FO putting up the flaps didn't help either....

 

[Flyer1015]

I don't give a rat's ass what the training department teaches.

Oh, you better! Because the NTSB and the FAA will be all over it.

Key word..SLIGHT Back pressure. Not hold the hold in your lap and override the pusher. I HIGHLY doubt Colgan trained to recover from a stall like that. FO putting up the flaps didn't help either....

Colgan stall profiles have already been released by the NTSB. They look like they are written and drawn by a 5 year old.

 

[LazyLightnin']

You find nothing contradictory about what you just said?

 

[Flyer1015]

You find nothing contradictory about what you just said?

No. Or did I miss something? I'm blaming a sub-standard training department, along with fatigue/tiredness due to commuting, weather, long day.

 

[LazyLightnin']

There are thousands of scenarios the training department does not cover. One of them includes some dolt pitching up beyond any conceivable angle.

Had he done the same stall recovery as part of a PC, they would have stopped the sim in utter disbelief and probably given him a sixth check failure. Unfortunately, for everyone, this was his last checkride.

With that said, maybe FO's will learn from this to be more assertive, as a last resort take controls and not let the guy in the left seat kill you.

 

[Erlanger]

Then if you blame this on pilot error, then every single recent crash is all to be blamed on pilot error: Comair taking off on wrong runway, AA pilot slamming rudder full deflections each way to the stop, snapping off tail, continuing in a storm to overrun a runway at LIT, slamming a perfectly fine 757 into a Columbian mountainside, and even the most recent Fedex crash in Japan. Do you blame pilot error and throw everyone under the bus?

"When the stall occured, the Captain NEVER lowered the noise/angle of attack. UNACCEPTABLE!!!"

Maybe he did what he did in the sim, and the way the training program taught him. I can tell you as a FACT that at our airline, on the CRJ, we are NOT told *initially* to lower the nose when the stick shaker goes off. We are taught max power, and minimize altitude loss by "staying" in the shaker (in some cases, this actually means slight BACK pressure), while letting the airspeed come up and VSI trend to increase. Only when that happens do we FINALLY lower the nose.

As I said, this is a training issue. At our airline, we've already done away with all 3 stall profiles. GONE. Now we just have a one page generic stall recovery procedure. No profiles. As for the repercussions from this accident, get ready for a complete change/overhaul in stall recovery procedures, and stall training all the way to the pusher.

I think the problem with this crash is the topics of discussion amongst the crew. Everything from pay, to not being comfortable in icing conditions, to complaining about being sick and tired, etc. And it doesn't help that we now find out about the Captain's failures. It's so embarrassing to those of us that take this profession seriously even though we may be at a regional. This really makes us look incompetent and amateurish to the public. But with all those distractions, all the Captain had to simply do was apply the proper stall recovery technique and we wouldn't be having these discussion right now and we'd all be back to our normal flightinfo days of bashing some other regional. (I don't mean to be funny)

 

[Flyer1015]

Well, then fine. But I disagree, in fact, I've asked about a pusher and any training in the event it happens, but no one does it. Why? The FAA doesn't require it. Hell, yes, we should not stall. And YES, we should recover at just the onset of a stick shaker. But once the pusher goes off, I don't recall any training ever in the sim, in terms of what to do next. It's pretty much up to you, let the pusher do its thing, lower the nose, and let the airspeed rise. Not a big deal when you're 10,000' or higher. A HUGE deal when you're only 1,000 to 1,500 AGL. At that point, who knows, human instinct might to be pull up to avoid the pusher taking you into the ground. I wouldn't know.

But I think we should all get ready and be prepared for stall profile changes, and training right up to and in the pusher. Our airline already did away with stall profiles. I'm sure others will be changing soon, more to follow.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Well, then fine. But I disagree, in fact, I've asked about a pusher and any training in the event it happens, but no one does it. Why? The FAA doesn't require it. Hell, yes, we should not stall. And YES, we should recover at just the onset of a stick shaker. But once the pusher goes off, I don't recall any training ever in the sim, in terms of what to do next. It's pretty much up to you, let the pusher do its thing, lower the nose, and let the airspeed rise. Not a big deal when you're 10,000' or higher. A HUGE deal when you're only 1,000 to 1,500 AGL. At that point, who knows, human instinct might to be pull up to avoid the pusher taking you into the ground. I wouldn't know.

But I think we should all get ready and be prepared for stall profile changes, and training right up to and in the pusher. Our airline already did away with stall profiles. I'm sure others will be changing soon, more to follow.

Finally. A valid point.

In fact, I think that disconnecting the stick pusher, which is never taught, should be incorporated into this training. For situations like this as well as erroneous stick pusher activations, etc.