Colgan 3407 NTSB Animation

[SEVEN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

 

[Limeyflyer]

It looks like the FO saw the speed rapidly decreasing but didn't say anything. Although about the second she said "Uhhh" the shaker was going off.

 

[DiverDriver]

Full power, no applicable right rudder. Plane yaws/rolls left. Full right rudder applied with right aileron. Plane snaps right and rolls semi-inverted. FO without command from the Pilot flying in a stall retracts flaps. CA may have gotten them into a bad situation. FO surely kept them there.

Before the plane rolled to the right and semi-inverted their altitude was ABOVE the intercept altitude.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

All I can say is wow.

 

[Flyer1015]

You backseat drivers sure are quick to judge when you weren't there. Why don't you wait until you crucify the crew and throw them under the rug? How about we fight for things like industry-wide sweep changes of stall recovery training, requiring stall training with pusher, and addressing fatigue and rest issues?

 

[LazyLightnin']

It looks like some kid playing FlightSim. Just plain terrible.

 

[embpic1]

That youtube link would not work for me. Here is another link.

http://www.buffalonews.com/static/multimedia/Flight3407/animation.html

I have watched this several times. All I can say is 'Holy crap!' He definitely did not have the airspeed in his scan. He really screwed to pooch on the stall recovery (pull instead of lower/hold and power out). The real 'WTF!' here is the FO raising the flaps on her own in the middle of this mess. I think she put the final nail in the coffin for them.

I would put money on us all trainning to the pusher now.

 

[Flyer1015]

I would put money on us all trainning to the pusher now.

...as it should have been.

The fairy tale stall profiles have you set up and enter a stall which sometimes takes a 30-60+ seconds to set up, is unrealistic. Our airline has now done away with stall profiles, and from what I hear, in the sim, we'll get like a turn from base to final with flaps out, spoilers out, while making the turn, in an at-least-somewhat-realistic situation in which you could get a shaker while you look out for the runway. (apparently something similar happened to Colgan at BTV). But they recovered, so it's all good.

This Flight 3407 accident should cause a overhaul of stall profiles.

 

[d.fitz]

The fairy tale stall profiles have you set up and enter a stall which sometimes takes a 30-60+ seconds to set up, is unrealistic.

This Flight 3407 accident should cause a overhaul of stall profiles.

All the training in the world doesn't prevent inattention.

 

[TheInsider]

edited (removed) because I made an incorrect statement of the event.

 

[Fred Rogers]

You backseat drivers sure are quick to judge when you weren't there. Why don't you wait until you crucify the crew and throw them under the rug? How about we fight for things like industry-wide sweep changes of stall recovery training, requiring stall training with pusher, and addressing fatigue and rest issues?

Thank you.

 

[great cornholio]

That youtube link would not work for me. Here is another link.

http://www.buffalonews.com/static/multimedia/Flight3407/animation.html

I have watched this several times. All I can say is 'Holy crap!' He definitely did not have the airspeed in his scan. He really screwed to pooch on the stall recovery (pull instead of lower/hold and power out). The real 'WTF!' here is the FO raising the flaps on her own in the middle of this mess. I think she put the final nail in the coffin for them.

I would put money on us all trainning to the pusher now.

I agree that the flaps going up at this point probably was the nail in the coffin as well, but I think this goes back to 121 stall training. Sure we just do approaches to stalls not actually stall the plane in 121 training, but the stall recovery profile for my plane is max thrust then flaps to 9 then pos rate (airspeed inc in level flight) gear up then gain more speed and flaps to 0. Even though it seems like this was a bad idea this time it sounds like she more that likely did exactly what she was taught in the sim. (I have no idea what the Q400 stall recovery profile is like just going by what we do in the sim)

On a related side note does anyone know what the stall speed is with flaps 15 compared to flaps 0 on the Q400.

I hope that some changes come out of this, but more than likely nothing will change. One month from now everyone will already forget about this and ATA and RAA and all of those guys will be able to stop any changes that would come from this in the name of cost savings.

 

[Fred Rogers]

ATA and RAA and all of those guys will be able to stop any changes that would come from this in the name of cost savings.

You have identified some of the primary enemies to aviation safety.

 

[timmay]

They were dead before the FO put the flaps up. Watch the video again they are rolling through 90 degrees with the yoke in the Captains lap when she moves the flaps.
This accident was the result of poor airmanship long before the stall recovery even becomes an issue. In my opinion the FAA should change several issues long before they get to the topic of proper stall recovery. For example a Captain with 5 check ride failures and 100 hours in type paired with a very inexperienced FO should never happen. There needs to be better checks and balances before innocent people have to lose there lives.

 

[great cornholio]

...as it should have been.

The fairy tale stall profiles have you set up and enter a stall which sometimes takes a 30-60+ seconds to set up, is unrealistic. Our airline has now done away with stall profiles, and from what I hear, in the sim, we'll get like a turn from base to final with flaps out, spoilers out, while making the turn, in an at-least-somewhat-realistic situation in which you could get a shaker while you look out for the runway. (apparently something similar happened to Colgan at BTV). But they recovered, so it's all good.

This Flight 3407 accident should cause a overhaul of stall profiles.

What happened in BTV I did a search, but couldnt find anything on here about it.

 

[embpic1]

but the stall recovery profile for my plane is max thrust then flaps to 9 then pos rate (airspeed inc in level flight) gear up then gain more speed and flaps to 0.

I have never heard of retracting the flaps during a stall recovery. What kind of plane are you talking about? When you retract the flaps, you effectively increase the wing's angle of attack. This of course is not desirable in a stall recovery. It kinda goes along the same lines as a windshear recovery. Max thrust and don't touch the configuration until you are clear of it.

 

[FreightGod]

How about we fight for things like industry-wide sweep changes of stall recovery training, requiring stall training with pusher, and addressing fatigue and rest issues?

No amount of additional training can prevent this type of lousy airmanship and weak piloting skills.

 

[777forever]

The crew in BTV recovered just fine so it doesnt quite seem like a training issue to me.

You can train all you want but you won't know how someone will react in a real emergency until they are...well...in a real emergency.

 

[flynryan15]

The crew in BTV recovered just fine so it doesnt quite seem like a training issue to me.

You can train all you want but you won't know how someone will react in a real emergency until they are...well...in a real emergency.

I would think the training issue is that in a very short time period you had 2 crews stall and airplane! Something is getting missed here is this keeps happening!

 

[great cornholio]

I have never heard of retracting the flaps during a stall recovery. What kind of plane are you talking about? When you retract the flaps, you effectively increase the wing's angle of attack. This of course is not desirable in a stall recovery. It kinda goes along the same lines as a windshear recovery. Max thrust and don't touch the configuration until you are clear of it.

Its the recovery from a landing stall (gear down flaps 45) in the EMB 145. As soon as you get the shaker you are supposed to goose the engines and call for flaps 9. My guess is that with the high drag of gear down and flaps 45 the aircraft would not be able to accelerate in level flight (as we have to show in the sim) and that flaps 9 provides a better lift to drag ratio and helps you get out of the shaker.

A few years ago they added "high altitude stalls" basically we do a quick stall (to shaker) somewhere in the flight levels and have to recover. The point with that is that the engines don't have the thrust to be able to power you thru the stall so you will have to lower the nose and accept an altitude loss that could be multiple thousands of feet.

We are taught that in windshear we keep the configuation we have until out of the windshear.

 

[General Lee]

You backseat drivers sure are quick to judge when you weren't there. Why don't you wait until you crucify the crew and throw them under the rug? How about we fight for things like industry-wide sweep changes of stall recovery training, requiring stall training with pusher, and addressing fatigue and rest issues?

With the animation and tapes from the data recorder and voice recorder, it was like WE WERE THERE you dork.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Thurman Merman]

I would think the training issue is that in a very short time period you had 2 crews stall and airplane! Something is getting missed here is this keeps happening!

They did not stall the airplane in BTV, they received a stick shaker as did 3407, difference is the reaction when the stick shaker occured. I posted on another thread but here it is:

A factor not discussed is the stupid "Increase ref speed switch." When in icing conditions and turned on it raises the low speed que about 20 knots hence the necessity for getting the corrected ref speeds for Icing conditions, or just remembering to bump up your ref speed +15/+20 depending on flap setting. When the shaker initially occured it was a system manufactured event due to this little switch being moved to the on position. The stall was a result of the sudden pitch up. When the shaker occured there was still plenty of flying speed.

Q400 stall recover <flap 15>
1st indication (shaker):
-Lower AOA/nose (And acceptable altitude loss ie.
200' is allowable in the sim)
-Positive rate (a/s increase):
gear up
-Vfri (flap retraction speed)
flaps up
If flap 35 stall, prior to Vfri flaps are retracted to
15 and then no movement prior to Vfri.

*DISCLAIMER* I am not commenting on actions of the crew because I lost a friend and it would not be appropriate, I'm just giving facts about the Q400

 

[Axel]

deleted

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Nobody was minding the store...and for that the ultimate price was paid. Instead of trying to play CSI NTSB...learn from it and dont be the next victim.........

 

[HalinTexas]

One thing I've noticed. Look at the animation at 22:16:27.

CA asked for "flaps 15, landing check." Flaps only made it to 10. At that time, speed hit 130KIAS, stick shaker activated simultaneously with an "uhhh" from the FO.

When she retracted the flaps (unrequested), at 16:36, the speed was 96 KIAS and the pusher was on. Additionally, the aircraft was in a right bank of about 100 degrees. Even though it was unrequested, the retraction was immaterial at this point.

Look at the CA's control inputs. Feet going all over, overcontrolling, the aircraft climbed 200' in the stall. He never "let" the nose go below the horizon. By the time it did, the stall was so aggravated, it was too late to recover.

 

[SEVEN]

With the animation and tapes from the data recorder and voice recorder, it was like WE WERE THERE you dork.

Bye Bye--General Lee

FLYER1015 is trying to blame shift in any and every direction he can. He is not puting blame where it truly lies. The PIC/Captain commanding that aircraft. Yes it is a 2 crew airplane, but he was in control and is PILOT IN COMMAND. He was too busy chatting and not focusing enough during that critical phase of flight. Especially with the accumulating ice. We have the animation and the CVR tapes. The truth is before our eyes. Stop blame shifing. Put the blame where it lies. Innatention caused the initial chain of events. Airplanes won't fly without airspeed. The PIC never pushed the power lever back up. Inexperience and lack of attention was a MAJOR factor contributing to the cause of this preventable accident.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

I think this is the reason people need to flight instruct instead of skip steps and going to the GIAs of the world. I have no idea how many stalls I did while CFIing but enough to know not to pull back on the stick/yoke approaching a stall.

Some people are not cut out to do this job and will accept substandard wages just so than can be a pilot, thats why I'm getting out of this industry. Rant Over.

 

[Mookie]

a question to any of ya'll who have flown both the saab and q400. is the center of thrust the same for both planes?? i ask this b/c a friend of mine has spent the last two years training MD-80 pilots to the 737 and has lost alot of hair trying to get them to not pull up too hard on a stall or even a go around. the center of thrust on the 80, like an RJ is above the CG pitching the plane down when max power is applied, and the 737 is below and you almost have to push down on the nose during a stall/go around b/c the nose will pitch up quite dramatically.

the cptn had 100 hrs in the Q, right?? maybe he was going back to old (but appropriate) habits from flying the Saab by expecting the plane to pitch down when full power was applied, thus making the stall much worse.

hate to say it, but what the F was the FO doing raising the flaps during the roll???

Mookie

 

[skywav8r]

Yo Mookie,

Remember that tail stall stuff we learned years ago for the Brasilia? If you encountered a stall condition after changing configuration you were supposed to return to the previous configuration. The addition of flaps tended to blank out the tail. Traditional stall recovery techniques would only serve to increase the stalled condition. I'm not saying this is the case here. Airmanship and attention to speed seems to be a big factor. The "cable box" we had on the Brasilia could have alerted the crew earlier of the decaying airspeed. The "cable box" sat on the glareshield and its sole purpose was to alert the crew, via an annoying tone, that your airspeed had gone below 170kt...I think...while in icing conditions.

 

[Ben Dover]

Yo Mookie,

"cable box"

You mean the "Comair box"? Even the manufacturer Embraer calls it the "Comair box".

(just needed to get a friendly jab in at my Comair friends)