Colgan 3407 NTSB Animation

[General Lee]

You backseat drivers sure are quick to judge when you weren't there. Why don't you wait until you crucify the crew and throw them under the rug? How about we fight for things like industry-wide sweep changes of stall recovery training, requiring stall training with pusher, and addressing fatigue and rest issues?

With the animation and tapes from the data recorder and voice recorder, it was like WE WERE THERE you dork.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Thurman Merman]

I would think the training issue is that in a very short time period you had 2 crews stall and airplane! Something is getting missed here is this keeps happening!

They did not stall the airplane in BTV, they received a stick shaker as did 3407, difference is the reaction when the stick shaker occured. I posted on another thread but here it is:

A factor not discussed is the stupid "Increase ref speed switch." When in icing conditions and turned on it raises the low speed que about 20 knots hence the necessity for getting the corrected ref speeds for Icing conditions, or just remembering to bump up your ref speed +15/+20 depending on flap setting. When the shaker initially occured it was a system manufactured event due to this little switch being moved to the on position. The stall was a result of the sudden pitch up. When the shaker occured there was still plenty of flying speed.

Q400 stall recover <flap 15>
1st indication (shaker):
-Lower AOA/nose (And acceptable altitude loss ie.
200' is allowable in the sim)
-Positive rate (a/s increase):
gear up
-Vfri (flap retraction speed)
flaps up
If flap 35 stall, prior to Vfri flaps are retracted to
15 and then no movement prior to Vfri.

*DISCLAIMER* I am not commenting on actions of the crew because I lost a friend and it would not be appropriate, I'm just giving facts about the Q400

 

[Axel]

deleted

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Nobody was minding the store...and for that the ultimate price was paid. Instead of trying to play CSI NTSB...learn from it and dont be the next victim.........

 

[HalinTexas]

One thing I've noticed. Look at the animation at 22:16:27.

CA asked for "flaps 15, landing check." Flaps only made it to 10. At that time, speed hit 130KIAS, stick shaker activated simultaneously with an "uhhh" from the FO.

When she retracted the flaps (unrequested), at 16:36, the speed was 96 KIAS and the pusher was on. Additionally, the aircraft was in a right bank of about 100 degrees. Even though it was unrequested, the retraction was immaterial at this point.

Look at the CA's control inputs. Feet going all over, overcontrolling, the aircraft climbed 200' in the stall. He never "let" the nose go below the horizon. By the time it did, the stall was so aggravated, it was too late to recover.

 

[SEVEN]

With the animation and tapes from the data recorder and voice recorder, it was like WE WERE THERE you dork.

Bye Bye--General Lee

FLYER1015 is trying to blame shift in any and every direction he can. He is not puting blame where it truly lies. The PIC/Captain commanding that aircraft. Yes it is a 2 crew airplane, but he was in control and is PILOT IN COMMAND. He was too busy chatting and not focusing enough during that critical phase of flight. Especially with the accumulating ice. We have the animation and the CVR tapes. The truth is before our eyes. Stop blame shifing. Put the blame where it lies. Innatention caused the initial chain of events. Airplanes won't fly without airspeed. The PIC never pushed the power lever back up. Inexperience and lack of attention was a MAJOR factor contributing to the cause of this preventable accident.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

I think this is the reason people need to flight instruct instead of skip steps and going to the GIAs of the world. I have no idea how many stalls I did while CFIing but enough to know not to pull back on the stick/yoke approaching a stall.

Some people are not cut out to do this job and will accept substandard wages just so than can be a pilot, thats why I'm getting out of this industry. Rant Over.

 

[Mookie]

a question to any of ya'll who have flown both the saab and q400. is the center of thrust the same for both planes?? i ask this b/c a friend of mine has spent the last two years training MD-80 pilots to the 737 and has lost alot of hair trying to get them to not pull up too hard on a stall or even a go around. the center of thrust on the 80, like an RJ is above the CG pitching the plane down when max power is applied, and the 737 is below and you almost have to push down on the nose during a stall/go around b/c the nose will pitch up quite dramatically.

the cptn had 100 hrs in the Q, right?? maybe he was going back to old (but appropriate) habits from flying the Saab by expecting the plane to pitch down when full power was applied, thus making the stall much worse.

hate to say it, but what the F was the FO doing raising the flaps during the roll???

Mookie

 

[skywav8r]

Yo Mookie,

Remember that tail stall stuff we learned years ago for the Brasilia? If you encountered a stall condition after changing configuration you were supposed to return to the previous configuration. The addition of flaps tended to blank out the tail. Traditional stall recovery techniques would only serve to increase the stalled condition. I'm not saying this is the case here. Airmanship and attention to speed seems to be a big factor. The "cable box" we had on the Brasilia could have alerted the crew earlier of the decaying airspeed. The "cable box" sat on the glareshield and its sole purpose was to alert the crew, via an annoying tone, that your airspeed had gone below 170kt...I think...while in icing conditions.

 

[Ben Dover]

Yo Mookie,

"cable box"

You mean the "Comair box"? Even the manufacturer Embraer calls it the "Comair box".

(just needed to get a friendly jab in at my Comair friends)

 

[Flyer1015]

With the animation and tapes from the data recorder and voice recorder, it was like WE WERE THERE you dork.

Bye Bye--General Lee

No you were not there, plain and simple. And nor has the NTSB released its final report. So why don't you go back to the majors thread and chill until they do.

 

[Flyer1015]

FLYER1015 is trying to blame shift in any and every direction he can. He is not puting blame where it truly lies. The PIC/Captain commanding that aircraft. Yes it is a 2 crew airplane, but he was in control and is PILOT IN COMMAND. He was too busy chatting and not focusing enough during that critical phase of flight. Especially with the accumulating ice. We have the animation and the CVR tapes. The truth is before our eyes. Stop blame shifing. Put the blame where it lies. Innatention caused the initial chain of events. Airplanes won't fly without airspeed. The PIC never pushed the power lever back up. Inexperience and lack of attention was a MAJOR factor contributing to the cause of this preventable accident.

Well thank god you don't work for the NTSB. Even the NTSB has not released its final report. These are just public hearings, and the final report will come out much later. You, being an emo idiot, don't question the "why" of the overall picture. You said "inexperience" and "lack of attention." Inexperience? Maybe, but then again, how much time did YOU have when you were hired at the Airlink? ANd for "lack of attention"..... WHAT WERE THE CAUSES??? That is what the NTSB will investigate!

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

These are the main issues! So quit crucifying the crew. I don't blame them, it is far to easy to blame the dead. How about blaming the system that failed on them? How about blaming Colgan's sub-standard training program? How about addressing industry wide fatigue and scheduling/rest issues?

Seven, you're stupid if you can't think the whole situation through, as I just described above.

 

[777forever]

. Inexperience and lack of attention was a MAJOR factor contributing to the cause of this preventable accident.

I agree with lack of attention but not inexperience. Lack of attention and fatigue were major factors contributing to this crash. And POSSIBLY pilot ability based on 2 failed check rides at the 121 level.

 

[MALSR]

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

These are the main issues! So quit crucifying the crew. I don't blame them, it is far to easy to blame the dead. How about blaming the system that failed on them? How about blaming Colgan's sub-standard training program? How about addressing industry wide fatigue and scheduling/rest issues?

Seven, you're stupid if you can't think the whole situation through, as I just described above.

No mater how tired a pilot, continuing to pull back in a 20kt-deep stall, at 30 degrees pitch up is going to be viewed as substandard airmanship, not fatigue.

 

[timmay]

Well thank god you don't work for the NTSB. Even the NTSB has not released its final report. These are just public hearings, and the final report will come out much later. You, being an emo idiot, don't question the "why" of the overall picture. You said "inexperience" and "lack of attention." Inexperience? Maybe, but then again, how much time did YOU have when you were hired at the Airlink? ANd for "lack of attention"..... WHAT WERE THE CAUSES??? That is what the NTSB will investigate!

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

These are the main issues! So quit crucifying the crew. I don't blame them, it is far to easy to blame the dead. How about blaming the system that failed on them? How about blaming Colgan's sub-standard training program? How about addressing industry wide fatigue and scheduling/rest issues?

Seven, you're stupid if you can't think the whole situation through, as I just described above.

Is it just me or are items 2 through 5 the exact same thing? Also everyone that commutes should hope that item 3 gets swept under the rug otherwise there is will be some miserable folks commuting in a day early.

 

[LazyLightnin']

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

Except the captain had 25 hours rest before dutying in that day. Even at 16 hours of duty, you should know that airspeed = good.

The FO was the commuter and like I said before, had she been PF we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

I can appreciate your agenda in pushing for better rest regulations, but the fact of the matter is poor airmanship got them into a worse situation. Even a groggy, mediocre pilot should know stall recovery in their sleep.

 

[SEVEN]

............................

 

[SEVEN]

Well thank god you don't work for the NTSB. Even the NTSB has not released its final report. These are just public hearings, and the final report will come out much later. You, being an emo idiot, don't question the "why" of the overall picture. You said "inexperience" and "lack of attention." Inexperience? Maybe, but then again, how much time did YOU have when you were hired at the Airlink? ANd for "lack of attention"..... WHAT WERE THE CAUSES??? That is what the NTSB will investigate!

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

These are the main issues! So quit crucifying the crew. I don't blame them, it is far to easy to blame the dead. How about blaming the system that failed on them? How about blaming Colgan's sub-standard training program? How about addressing industry wide fatigue and scheduling/rest issues?

Seven, you're stupid if you can't think the whole situation through, as I just described above.

To answer your questions: I flew 135 passenger charter before the regional. I had over 3000 hours and quite a bit of PIC turbine. My qualifications and flight time are NOT the issue here.
I agree with you. Colgan has sub-standard hiring practices and a sub-par training program. They are partially to blame for putting that guy in the left seat of an airplane he had no business being in (multiple failed checkrides, poor performance at previous jobs, etc). Fatigue is obviously a partial factor as well. But, let's not distract ourselves from the primary persons responsible. 1) Captain- he's Pilot in Command and has the ultimate responsibility for the safety of that aircraft. 2) SIC, she should have spoken up sooner. Let's not forget she is a REQUIRED crew member and "checked out" on the aircraft.
Bottom line, I understand there were contributing factors relating to th crash. There always are. But we must put primary blame on the Flight crew for Pilot Error. They made a student pilot mistake. They allowed the aircraft to run out of airspeed and fall out of the sky. When the stall occured, the Captain NEVER lowered the noise/angle of attack. UNACCEPTABLE!!!

....................BTW, why don't you try debated your point of view without name calling. If you can't do that, stay of these forums.

 

[HalinTexas]

I've heard both came off of days off. What was their duty day like, the day of the crash? I've seen nothing about number of legs, flight time, etc.

 

[Taildraggaah]

It looks like when the left wing dropped (stalled) he held the nose back and increased pressure. With the full right aileron input next this was making a pro spin input while aggravating the stall. I dont think the flaps really did them in...