Colgan 3407 NTSB Animation

[Flyer1015]

With the animation and tapes from the data recorder and voice recorder, it was like WE WERE THERE you dork.

Bye Bye--General Lee

No you were not there, plain and simple. And nor has the NTSB released its final report. So why don't you go back to the majors thread and chill until they do.

 

[Flyer1015]

FLYER1015 is trying to blame shift in any and every direction he can. He is not puting blame where it truly lies. The PIC/Captain commanding that aircraft. Yes it is a 2 crew airplane, but he was in control and is PILOT IN COMMAND. He was too busy chatting and not focusing enough during that critical phase of flight. Especially with the accumulating ice. We have the animation and the CVR tapes. The truth is before our eyes. Stop blame shifing. Put the blame where it lies. Innatention caused the initial chain of events. Airplanes won't fly without airspeed. The PIC never pushed the power lever back up. Inexperience and lack of attention was a MAJOR factor contributing to the cause of this preventable accident.

Well thank god you don't work for the NTSB. Even the NTSB has not released its final report. These are just public hearings, and the final report will come out much later. You, being an emo idiot, don't question the "why" of the overall picture. You said "inexperience" and "lack of attention." Inexperience? Maybe, but then again, how much time did YOU have when you were hired at the Airlink? ANd for "lack of attention"..... WHAT WERE THE CAUSES??? That is what the NTSB will investigate!

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

These are the main issues! So quit crucifying the crew. I don't blame them, it is far to easy to blame the dead. How about blaming the system that failed on them? How about blaming Colgan's sub-standard training program? How about addressing industry wide fatigue and scheduling/rest issues?

Seven, you're stupid if you can't think the whole situation through, as I just described above.

 

[777forever]

. Inexperience and lack of attention was a MAJOR factor contributing to the cause of this preventable accident.

I agree with lack of attention but not inexperience. Lack of attention and fatigue were major factors contributing to this crash. And POSSIBLY pilot ability based on 2 failed check rides at the 121 level.

 

[MALSR]

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

These are the main issues! So quit crucifying the crew. I don't blame them, it is far to easy to blame the dead. How about blaming the system that failed on them? How about blaming Colgan's sub-standard training program? How about addressing industry wide fatigue and scheduling/rest issues?

Seven, you're stupid if you can't think the whole situation through, as I just described above.

No mater how tired a pilot, continuing to pull back in a 20kt-deep stall, at 30 degrees pitch up is going to be viewed as substandard airmanship, not fatigue.

 

[timmay]

Well thank god you don't work for the NTSB. Even the NTSB has not released its final report. These are just public hearings, and the final report will come out much later. You, being an emo idiot, don't question the "why" of the overall picture. You said "inexperience" and "lack of attention." Inexperience? Maybe, but then again, how much time did YOU have when you were hired at the Airlink? ANd for "lack of attention"..... WHAT WERE THE CAUSES??? That is what the NTSB will investigate!

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

These are the main issues! So quit crucifying the crew. I don't blame them, it is far to easy to blame the dead. How about blaming the system that failed on them? How about blaming Colgan's sub-standard training program? How about addressing industry wide fatigue and scheduling/rest issues?

Seven, you're stupid if you can't think the whole situation through, as I just described above.

Is it just me or are items 2 through 5 the exact same thing? Also everyone that commutes should hope that item 3 gets swept under the rug otherwise there is will be some miserable folks commuting in a day early.

 

[LazyLightnin']

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

Except the captain had 25 hours rest before dutying in that day. Even at 16 hours of duty, you should know that airspeed = good.

The FO was the commuter and like I said before, had she been PF we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

I can appreciate your agenda in pushing for better rest regulations, but the fact of the matter is poor airmanship got them into a worse situation. Even a groggy, mediocre pilot should know stall recovery in their sleep.

 

[SEVEN]

............................

 

[SEVEN]

Well thank god you don't work for the NTSB. Even the NTSB has not released its final report. These are just public hearings, and the final report will come out much later. You, being an emo idiot, don't question the "why" of the overall picture. You said "inexperience" and "lack of attention." Inexperience? Maybe, but then again, how much time did YOU have when you were hired at the Airlink? ANd for "lack of attention"..... WHAT WERE THE CAUSES??? That is what the NTSB will investigate!

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

These are the main issues! So quit crucifying the crew. I don't blame them, it is far to easy to blame the dead. How about blaming the system that failed on them? How about blaming Colgan's sub-standard training program? How about addressing industry wide fatigue and scheduling/rest issues?

Seven, you're stupid if you can't think the whole situation through, as I just described above.

To answer your questions: I flew 135 passenger charter before the regional. I had over 3000 hours and quite a bit of PIC turbine. My qualifications and flight time are NOT the issue here.
I agree with you. Colgan has sub-standard hiring practices and a sub-par training program. They are partially to blame for putting that guy in the left seat of an airplane he had no business being in (multiple failed checkrides, poor performance at previous jobs, etc). Fatigue is obviously a partial factor as well. But, let's not distract ourselves from the primary persons responsible. 1) Captain- he's Pilot in Command and has the ultimate responsibility for the safety of that aircraft. 2) SIC, she should have spoken up sooner. Let's not forget she is a REQUIRED crew member and "checked out" on the aircraft.
Bottom line, I understand there were contributing factors relating to th crash. There always are. But we must put primary blame on the Flight crew for Pilot Error. They made a student pilot mistake. They allowed the aircraft to run out of airspeed and fall out of the sky. When the stall occured, the Captain NEVER lowered the noise/angle of attack. UNACCEPTABLE!!!

....................BTW, why don't you try debated your point of view without name calling. If you can't do that, stay of these forums.

 

[HalinTexas]

I've heard both came off of days off. What was their duty day like, the day of the crash? I've seen nothing about number of legs, flight time, etc.

 

[Taildraggaah]

It looks like when the left wing dropped (stalled) he held the nose back and increased pressure. With the full right aileron input next this was making a pro spin input while aggravating the stall. I dont think the flaps really did them in...

 

[Flyer1015]

primary persons responsible. 1) Captain- he's Pilot in Command and has the ultimate responsibility for the safety of that aircraft. 2) SIC, she should have spoken up sooner. Let's not forget she is a REQUIRED crew member and "checked out" on the aircraft.
Bottom line, I understand there were contributing factors relating to th crash. There always are. But we must put primary blame on the Flight crew for Pilot Error. They made a student pilot mistake. They allowed the aircraft to run out of airspeed and fall out of the sky. When the stall occured, the Captain NEVER lowered the noise/angle of attack. UNACCEPTABLE!!!

Then if you blame this on pilot error, then every single recent crash is all to be blamed on pilot error: Comair taking off on wrong runway, AA pilot slamming rudder full deflections each way to the stop, snapping off tail, continuing in a storm to overrun a runway at LIT, slamming a perfectly fine 757 into a Columbian mountainside, and even the most recent Fedex crash in Japan. Do you blame pilot error and throw everyone under the bus?

"When the stall occured, the Captain NEVER lowered the noise/angle of attack. UNACCEPTABLE!!!"

Maybe he did what he did in the sim, and the way the training program taught him. I can tell you as a FACT that at our airline, on the CRJ, we are NOT told *initially* to lower the nose when the stick shaker goes off. We are taught max power, and minimize altitude loss by "staying" in the shaker (in some cases, this actually means slight BACK pressure), while letting the airspeed come up and VSI trend to increase. Only when that happens do we FINALLY lower the nose.

As I said, this is a training issue. At our airline, we've already done away with all 3 stall profiles. GONE. Now we just have a one page generic stall recovery procedure. No profiles. As for the repercussions from this accident, get ready for a complete change/overhaul in stall recovery procedures, and stall training all the way to the pusher.

 

[LazyLightnin']

I don't give a rat's ass what the training department teaches. In this case, if what is taught ain't working, it goes out the window. You can train a monkey to recover from a stall, but a captain should know that at some point your airspeed needs to get out of the "red snaky thingy"!.

And besides, what training department teaches a 30 degree nose up recovery?! I don't think so. In an RJ or a 400.

 

[777forever]

Then if you blame this on pilot error, then every single recent crash is all to be blamed on pilot error: Comair taking off on wrong runway, AA pilot slamming rudder full deflections each way to the stop, snapping off tail, continuing in a storm to overrun a runway at LIT, slamming a perfectly fine 757 into a Columbian mountainside, and even the most recent Fedex crash in Japan. Do you blame pilot error and throw everyone under the bus?

"When the stall occured, the Captain NEVER lowered the noise/angle of attack. UNACCEPTABLE!!!"

Maybe he did what he did in the sim, and the way the training program taught him. I can tell you as a FACT that at our airline, on the CRJ, we are NOT told *initially* to lower the nose when the stick shaker goes off. We are taught max power, and minimize altitude loss by "staying" in the shaker (in some cases, this actually means slight BACK pressure), while letting the airspeed come up and VSI trend to increase. Only when that happens do we FINALLY lower the nose.

As I said, this is a training issue. At our airline, we've already done away with all 3 stall profiles. GONE. Now we just have a one page generic stall recovery procedure. No profiles. As for the repercussions from this accident, get ready for a complete change/overhaul in stall recovery procedures, and stall training all the way to the pusher.

Key word..SLIGHT Back pressure. Not hold the hold in your lap and override the pusher. I HIGHLY doubt Colgan trained to recover from a stall like that. FO putting up the flaps didn't help either....

 

[Flyer1015]

I don't give a rat's ass what the training department teaches.

Oh, you better! Because the NTSB and the FAA will be all over it.

Key word..SLIGHT Back pressure. Not hold the hold in your lap and override the pusher. I HIGHLY doubt Colgan trained to recover from a stall like that. FO putting up the flaps didn't help either....

Colgan stall profiles have already been released by the NTSB. They look like they are written and drawn by a 5 year old.

 

[LazyLightnin']

You find nothing contradictory about what you just said?