Colgan 3407 Down in Buffalo

[bailout]

Thats a great video... freaky that they land on rwy 23 at the end also.

But the closing statements hit hard and it could have absolutely been any of us....

 

[CX880]

I think the NTSB said the loss of control happened after Flaps 15. I'd be worried like you with those large CP changes with a tail that by all accounts could use more surface area.

I really doubt Bombardier engineers eyeball the proper size of a control surface, do you? I've always thought that the A340-600 vertical stab doesn't look proportional to the fuselage, should I look into launching an investigation of Airbus?

Whatever happened, and if indeed it was icing, most likely they were still on AP. Too much icing and being on AP means that when it kicks off, it's too late.

 

[say again]

God bless all involved!!!

 

[goodgig]

Sounds like the loss of control happened just after the final flaps setting. If so, the q400 quite aggressively pitches during the transition from 15 to 35 degrees...especially with the auto on. Also, the elevator buffets like crazy while configured at flaps 35. Neither of those scenarios makes me feel good when flying an inverted elevator in icing with the autopilot on.

Clue please: What' an inverted elevator???

 

[The Prussian]

Clue please: What' an inverted elevator???

Watch the video posted by 310 above..

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I really doubt Bombardier engineers eyeball the proper size of a control surface, do you? I've always thought that the A340-600 vertical stab doesn't look proportional to the fuselage, should I look into launching an investigation of Airbus?

No, but I'd like to investigate why my CRJ has air conditioning vents on the floor and flaps that won't extend on a regular basis.

Who knows. ATR screwed up the boot design and the FAA put a rubber stamp on it. You never know.

 

[goodgig]

I have not seen that video recently, but aren't all elevators "inverted"? Unless you are flying a piagio.

 

[cjdriver]

Do you regional guys practice the tail icing recovery maneuver in training? I've had it on occasion in various corporate training. It's worth going through as it's not something you would naturally do in that circumstance.

 

[Publishers]

Being the media, there are some protocols of today that are going to be there and in the new world required speed to get something up, there are going to be mistakes.
First, you will always find a -this is not terrorism statement.
Second, you will see the aircraft and history of it and the airline.
Third, anyone who saw the accident- usually ill informed but as most people do not know what a stall is, engine spooling noises, etc. it is difficult.
As someone who miscalled the Chalks accident in Miami initially, you go with your best informed guess. How many times does a wing spar fail versus uncontained engine failure leading to fire.
Lastly, you are trying to explain to an uneducated watcher, not do accident investigation.
I thought CNN who I have worked with had a good spot on how rare accidents are.

 

[Raskal]

Do you regional guys practice the tail icing recovery maneuver in training? I've had it on occasion in various corporate training. It's worth going through as it's not something you would naturally do in that circumstance.

I've only seen tailplane stalls when doing recurrent at Simuflite and Simcom for hawkers, I've never seen it here at the airline.

 

[twighead]

Do you regional guys practice the tail icing recovery maneuver in training? I've had it on occasion in various corporate training. It's worth going through as it's not something you would naturally do in that circumstance.

I've never heard anything about it in my 3.5 years at PDT. I fly almost exclusively in the Northeast and go into BUF a few times every week. After watching that NASA video and seeing what happened to Colgan, my confidence flying in icing conditions had been shaken somewhat.

 

[Motive Flow]

I thought CNN who I have worked with had a good spot on how rare accidents are.

I thought that was pretty good too. The best quote from the CNN newsbabe this morning was when introducing Mary Schiavo as having a "law firm that sues airlines." That pretty much hit the nail on the head.:smash:

 

[satpak77]

For what its worth, at both Simuflite and Flightsafety recurrent for the King Air 350, tail stalls are covered as is (of course) wind shear and TCAS collision avoidance, along with your standard ice on the wings buildup stuff

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I've never heard anything about it in my 3.5 years at PDT. I fly almost exclusively in the Northeast and go into BUF a few times every week. After watching that NASA video and seeing what happened to Colgan, my confidence flying in icing conditions had been shaken somewhat.

I'm not sure your confidence should be shaken yet, but it should prompt you to enhance your knowledge with regards to icing. I know I have spent some time reviewing things, especially the tailplane icing stuff. We do not yet know for sure that ice was a link in this accident chain, no matter how things may look right now... But it still doesn't hurt to expand our knowledge.

Ice is hazardous. We can mitigate the risks to a large degree, but since everytime we accumulate ice we are flying untested airfoils, we can never completely eliminate the danger. It is so easy, especially in the Dash, to be unconcerned in the presence of ice because we see so much of it, but we should always be suspicious of it. My hope somehow we are able to glean some information from this tragedy that will make us all safer.

 

[PropPiedmont]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946&hl=en

not to say this was the cause- but good info that may apply.

I remember watching this video in training at Piedmont. Not sure if it was during new hire training or during a CQ.

 

[WSurf]

I'm not sure your confidence should be shaken yet, but it should prompt you to enhance your knowledge with regards to icing. I know I have spent some time reviewing things, especially the tailplane icing stuff. We do not yet know for sure that ice was a link in this accident chain, no matter how things may look right now... But it still doesn't hurt to expand our knowledge.

Ice is hazardous. We can mitigate the risks to a large degree, but since everytime we accumulate ice we are flying untested airfoils, we can never completely eliminate the danger. It is so easy, especially in the Dash, to be unconcerned in the presence of ice because we see so much of it, but we should always be suspicious of it. My hope somehow we are able to glean some information from this tragedy that will make us all safer.

Well said Prop, we just don't know yet. I heard it was reported that the windshield was covered in ice. Was the Windshield Ice put on normal, or was it still on warmup? I have had the windshield covered in ICe and Selecting Normal cleared it right up. Were the boots on Continous Fast Cycle or was he like some other people that wait for ice to build then cycle the boots?
Was there a malfunction of the de-icing system? There are so many questions that still need to be answered and they will come soon.

 

[Lynxman]

I thought you were supposed to wait for a little bit of ice to build up and then cycle the boots.

 

[indianboy7]

I thought you were supposed to wait for a little bit of ice to build up and then cycle the boots.

not anymore. NASA did a bunch of tests and realized that bridging was not a factor with new deice technology.....we keep the boots going continuously whenever we have ice on the airframe at my airline.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I thought you were supposed to wait for a little bit of ice to build up and then cycle the boots.

Nope... At least not on the DHC-8-100/300. Bombardier says start the boots at the first sign of ice on the airplane. I have never seen "bridging" in any turboprop I have flown. Occassionally, you will run someone who claims to have seen it, but I think it is sort of like the Loch Ness Monster... It doesn't really exist.

 

[Raskal]

Nope... At least not on the DHC-8-100/300. Bombardier says start the boots at the first sign of ice on the airplane. I have never seen "bridging" in any turboprop I have flown. Occassionally, you will run someone who claims to have seen it, but I think it is sort of like the Loch Ness Monster... It doesn't really exist.

Same here, I was told to wait for accumulation back when I first flew a King Air but have since been taught not to wait. I've never seen bridging either.

The policy on the saabs I fly is the boots to auto/continuous in ice conditions, but I don't like this much when in actual icing-there is a 3 minute dwell time in between cycles and that's too long sometimes. Often I'll cycle them manually. Does anyone who flies the Q series know if that continuous mode is actually continuous or has a dwell time also?

 

[inline]

Fox News= Brain Wash Clearing House for the far right.

Sympathies to all affected by this tragic accident.

"brainwashed?" Yea right. I'm brainwashed. Better atch out. BTW,you're an idiot.

 

[inline]

Would you asshats stop bickering about which news anchor you want to suck off more? Does it really matter in the slightest what CNN on MSNBC are saying? Everyone knows they're talking just to talk so let it go.

Real people with real lives that people here have a personal connection to just died, and you're complaining about which jerkoff news commentator is less accurate.

I'm really glad I fly freight single pilot so I don't have to worry about sitting next to one of you cornholers for days on end.

I'm glad too that you fly single pilot freight.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Sounds like the loss of control happened just after the final flaps setting. If so, the q400 quite aggressively pitches during the transition from 15 to 35 degrees...especially with the auto on. Also, the elevator buffets like crazy while configured at flaps 35. Neither of those scenarios makes me feel good when flying an inverted elevator in icing with the autopilot on.

thats why you shouldn't...

 

[Captzaahlie]

I remember watching this video in training at Piedmont. Not sure if it was during new hire training or during a CQ.

ditto, i think it was played at almost every cq....

 

[Raskal]

thats why you shouldn't...

Yeah, I was also taught the same-in significant icing don't use full flaps, instead land at a reduced setting. I've since done it a few times in different aircraft.

Most airlines don't seem to teach it that way, at least not that I've heard of anyway.

 

[M-crit]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946&hl=en

not to say this was the cause- but good info that may apply.

It sucks to know that everything from that video the Q400 does in non-icing conditions, such as elevator buffet and major pitch-down during flap movement from 15 to 35. If it does that when clean you can only imagine would it would do in bad icing conditions.

 

[Brody1]

After the American Eagle crash in Indiana several years ago, one of their captains wrote a book called 'Unheeded Warning'. It's been a while since I read it, but if it turns out that this accident was caused by icing, then it will be another case of history repeating itself. It's no secret that the NTSB has been telling the FAA be more proactive when it comes to icing issues. Guess they'll listen now.

 

[clr4theapch]

NTSB REPORTING.. engines producing tourque, per the CVR: acft was on auto pilot flying the approach.. flaps 15 selected (never made 15, only 10, looks like they where retracted).. Stick shaker and pusher activated, A/P goes off.

Acft came to rest 180 degrees from airport heading..of 230 all four points of aircraft above groung indicating flat impact on top of house..

God Bless, sounds like the auto pilot was working hard to compensate for icing and standard apch speeds.. when crew dropped flaps, it looks like all hell broke loose with no time to recover.... obvious direction change indicates semi-spin and recovery atteptmt by crew... It might explain why the FO's last transmission was so short and stressed.. Jesus.. looks like they tried to save her,, just not enough altitude... GOD Speed

 

[WTF]

Icing video

Many have prolly already seen this but some haven't good info none the less.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946

 

[satpak77]

NTSB REPORTING.. engines producing tourque, per the CVR: acft was on auto pilot flying the approach.. flaps 15 selected (never made 15, only 10, looks like they where retracted).. Stick shaker and pusher activated, A/P goes off.

Acft came to rest 180 degrees from airport heading..of 230 all four points of aircraft above groung indicating flat impact on top of house..

God Bless, sounds like the auto pilot was working hard to compensate for icing and standard apch speeds.. when crew dropped flaps, it looks like all hell broke loose with no time to recover.... obvious direction change indicates semi-spin and recovery atteptmt by crew... It might explain why the FO's last transmission was so short and stressed.. Jesus.. looks like they tried to save her,, just not enough altitude... GOD Speed

is it completely impossible that a sudden pitch down, vertical descent, down thru the bottom and a pull-out (if you will) and then crash (but now inverted) would could have caused the above orientation? To get it 180 degrees from the original heading is definitely a new twist to this case

I wonder if the wreckage will display clues as to being inverted or not at impact?