Colgan 3407 Down in Buffalo

[joe_pilot]

I swear CNN just reported that "Carburetor ice can occur on fuel injected engines and could have been a serious problem".

Wow.

My thoughts go out to the families of the crew, the jumpseater and the passengers.

 

[blzr]

I'm inclined to agree.. but theres no doubt theres some denial on my part as I fly these things in a boatload of ice every day.

cale

On another note a cnn analyst just said that conditions were prime for carb icing..

I was just informed by cnn that DHC-8 has balloons on the wings. Also that turbo props are not rated for icing...WTF?

 

[zasca]

What's really disturbing to me is that I was supposed to fly a dash up to BUF late last night but got canceled because of the huge delays. EWR was showing 5 hour delays yesterday. Makes me wonder how long they were on duty yesterday. Fatigue will kill your awareness as we all know....

Godspeed

 

[CRJ puppy]

Since they were landing on runway 23, I have just two words to say:

False Glideslope.

Anyone who has flown into KBUF alot knows what I'm talking about. It's notamed in a 'round about way but if you capture it, all seems normal at first and then it just abruptly drops you to the ground way before the airport.

Easy to figure out in VMC, but much harder in IMC, especially if not expecting it or are distracted, tired, etc.

Anyway, may all on board and the one on the ground rest peacefully. A terrible tradegy no matter the cause.

 

[cale42]

Just now CNN says the FAA requires we disengage the autopilot every 5 minutes in icing. I love when I learn new regs via the news...

Can't believe we got to page 10 before someone mentioned fatigue.. I'm guessing we are going to learn there was a nice 10+ hour high leg day, as zasca said.. awareness goes to hell..

 

[AceCrackshot]

Just now CNN says the FAA requires we disengage the autopilot every 5 minutes in icing. I love when I learn new regs via the news...

Can't believe we got to page 10 before someone mentioned fatigue.. I'm guessing we are going to learn there was a nice 10+ hour high leg day, as zasca said.. awareness goes to hell..

Yep...I think everyone who has flown for a Regional for more than about two weeks has a fatigue/awareness story. Throw in the requirement to commute for many (Esp. when airline basing is less consistant than a hot dog vendor) and you've just got the conditions for extended fatigue.

 

[trainer8]

Trainer I was in college in Wilminton NC crushing beers chasing tail in 1994 during the Eagle Crash. But weren't those guys holding in ice with the flaps deployed to lower the nose? Causing major ICE bridging.

Yes, our SOP's now is if you enter icing condition boots go on at Fast Mode.

And yes depending on the ice we (or I) bump up the approach speeds.

Its still hard for me to believe ice brought them down.

Me, too. It fits a tailplane icing stall profile event. I've played in the Q400 Sim in Downsview, Ontario when it was being certified (1998...yeah, I'm old) but never in-depth stuff.

Tailplane icing profile is final approach in icing, input landing flaps, and wooop!...upset happens. Tailplane stall recovery is opposite of a conventional wing stall recovery if memory serves me (it's tougher each year). T-Tail may be different then conventional stab. I dunno...

Roselawn was a holding in icing conditions event. Icing caused airflow blockage to the ailerons. The autopilot compensated until in couldn't. Captain took control of the airplane with loaded yoke pressure and couldn't recover from the hard over. The outworkings of that crash spawned all kinds of bulletins and SOP/POH revisions. The CVR was scary. They tried to hard fly out of it all the way to the ground.

I used to wait till I got an half inch of ice built up on the Dash to blow the boots....and for fun I'd do a segment at a time and watch the airspeed recover. When they said to turn it on and leave it on, alot of us old timers were afraid of ice bridging on the boots. But, deHavilland was right; they kept it relatively clean.

T8

 

[RiddleEagle18]

What's really disturbing to me is that I was supposed to fly a dash up to BUF late last night but got canceled because of the huge delays. EWR was showing 5 hour delays yesterday. Makes me wonder how long they were on duty yesterday. Fatigue will kill your awareness as we all know....

Godspeed

Dont worry fatigue will be overlooked yet again. At comair the NTSB spent nearly two days during the final hearings on less than 10 seconds of non pertinent conversation that took place and ruled that as a major contributing factor.

Forget the fact that both pilots were fatigued and the signage and jepp plates were wrong.

While not any condolance to the familys, I hope this crew is vindicated.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Well, only disconnect every five minutes if you're doing a Cat IIIB in a 747 over the Pacific. The anchor actually had to interrupt his ridiculous monolouge and explain what he was getting at which was basically nothing. He was even reading from his notes probably from Wikipedia. John Wiley, BACA contributor and CNN resident moron.

 

[CrownandCoke]

as Cale mentioned, I fly these things in icing conditions every day. I highly doubt it was just ice that brought this bird down. I'm guessing fatigue is playing a part here. When you're owned by Pinnacle who has had an accident relating to fatigue already, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Me, too. It fits a tailplane icing stall profile event. I've played in the Q400 Sim in Downsview, Ontario when it was being certified (1998...yeah, I'm old) but never in-depth stuff.

Tailplane icing profile is final approach in icing, input landing flaps, and wooop!...upset happens. Tailplane stall recovery is opposite of a conventional wing stall recovery if memory serves me (it's tougher each year). T-Tail may be different then conventional stab. I dunno...

Roselawn was a holding in icing conditions event. Icing caused airflow blockage to the ailerons. The autopilot compensated until in couldn't. Captain took control of the airplane with loaded yoke pressure and couldn't recover from the hard over. The outworkings of that crash spawned all kinds of bulletins and SOP/POH revisions. The CVR was scary. They tried to hard fly out of it all the way to the ground.

I used to wait till I got an half inch of ice built up on the Dash to blow the boots....and for fun I'd do a segment at a time and watch the airspeed recover. When they said to turn it on and leave it on, alot of us old timers were afraid of ice bridging on the boots. But, deHavilland was right; they kept it relatively clean.

T8

Unlike the NTSB, I firmly believe that bridging exists, but that the DHC8 series are pretty resistant to it. Is this personal opinion based only on personal experience? Absolutely. However, in the King Air 200/B1900 I've experienced ice bridging, where in the DHC8s, I never did.

I don't know if its the velocity of the inflation of the boot, the manner of ice accumulation on different leading edges, or what. Perhaps its all an artifact of my imagination.

 

[Prog 2/2]

He also said the engines sounded extremely odd. Have a prop that has gone into beta would attribute to all the symptoms.

Happened to a Q400 in Sweden.

http://www.havkom.se/virtupload/news/rl2007_12e.pdf

 

[quinnlake]

CNN just said that the conditions were perfect for carb ice, so that may have been the problem. Great reporting.

 

[nimtz]

I swear CNN just reported that "Carburetor ice can occur on fuel injected engines and could have been a serious problem".

Wow.

My thoughts go out to the families of the crew, the jumpseater and the passengers.

It's that f*cking meteorologist. I wish this so called 'aviation expert' would at least correct the morons to explain that turbine aircraft don't have freaking carburetors.

 

[Fly91]

kcuf you jerkoff!!! I have plenty of respect for all families and crew on board. Nothing wrong with trying to understand what happened!!!

I agree, whats with all the cheesedicks that think someone doesn't care about the people that were lost/injured in an air crash....if you try to figure out what happened too soon? The NTSB, FAA ans aircraft manufacturers don't wait for 1 second, are they disrespectful scumbags, NO. Thats how we all could possibly learn something so it doesn't happen again.

But yeah, icing in those conditions is a very likely culprit. Could have lost a wing too, who knows.

(How does saying that disrespect anyone??? It doesn't.)

 

[xshuttlefa]

The irritating thing about watching the news coverage early in a tragedy like this is the wrong impression it gives those who know nothing about aviation. All the speculation and "details" that may or may not be true. Or bringing up details that have no bearing on the situation. Like the SAS problems with Q400 gear or any similarities to that of Cactus 1549.

I know the media is just trying to do their job and that our 25 hour news cycle means they have to report before the airplane hits the ground. But could they wait until some facts are ironed out before spewing nonsense all over the air? CNN is irritating, FOX is downright annoying, since there are 5 people spewing out "facts". And these facts are what the non-aviation public takes away with them. CNN kept reiterating the fact that this plane was NOT run by CO, but by Colgan.


CNN brought up in the past hour an incident with icing in a Dash 8 100 over St. Johns Newfoundland from the CTSB. Sounds close to what is believed to have happened in this tragic event, except the St.Johns was an incident, only due to the fact that crew was at 14,000 ft when it happened.

All I know is that I'm glad it wasn't my turn for fate to hunt me down. And Godspeed to all those families involved. I understand that angel wings have quite an anti-ice system and all the lift in the world.

 

[DashCojones]

Sadly, no matter what the investigations outcome, the flying public will take only two words from this accident: "Commuter" and "Turboprop". RIP

 

[Broke in CVG]

My favorite is that ALL the news stations are repeatedly saying "we don't want to speculate, but what do you think may have caused...."

 

[atpcliff]

Hi.

I was talking 2 my kids about this in the car.

It could've been me. I applied at Colgan in Jan?, but haven't heard anything back, so I could've been in the cockpit.

Or, I could've been the jumpseating crewmember, or one of the PAX.

All you can do is pick up the pieces, and keep trying. Life is REALLY crappy some times.

God Bless.

cliff
GRB

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Thoughts and prayers to the crew, passengers, and their families. Now is not to time to speculate about the causes, but to care for the injured and the relatives of the dead. There will be plenty of time to debate the cause and issues with Colgan after the NTSB does its work.

At least allow these people to be mourned and laid to rest before ripping their reputations to shreds.

Actually, if I were a pilot flying the Q I'd be very interested in finding out what happend as soon a possible too, so as to not make the same mistake. Wouldn't you want to? Aksing people not to speculate, well that's been taking place with pilots long before any of us were born. Earnie Gann talks about it all the time in "Fate is the Hunter". It's just the way it is.