Colgan 3047 NEW

[IamGumbyDammit]

If the AC impacted only part of the house or a tree, wouldn't that spin/cartwheel the AC?

 

[HalinTexas]

Nasa's Take on Tailplane Icing:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...23060735779946

Great video!

Everyone watch it. It's worth your time.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

:

The AC was landing to the southwest. Crash site indicated AC impacted flat not nose down. AC was facing the NW. Opposite of direction it was landing.

Somebody needs to go back to flight school. Southwest is no more the opposite direction of Northwest than up is the opposite direction of left.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

All these guys saying how well their airframe handles ice just means they haven't crashed yet

Yeah, I agree.
A friend of mine is a Captain over at Lynx on the Q400 and that's what he's always saying.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Yeah, I agree.
A friend of mine is a Captain over at Lynx on the Q400 and that's what he's always saying.

It's also what a bunch of Caravan pilots used to say before that thing started dropping out of the sky regularly due to ice.

Guys, the bottom line is that straight wing turboprop aircraft with "deice" boots as the method of ice removal/prevention will never be "good" icing airplanes. They are scraping the barrel of icing protection. If you think about it a system designed at trying to take care of the problem after it has already started is behind the curve from the get go. Anti ice systems designed around prevention will always be the best systems, even TKS is better.

Ultimately turboprops will only be safe in ice if they can figure out a way to efficiently and cost effectively get some hot bleed air to the wing and tail surfaces. Also, if you watch the NASA video, the use of a fixed horizontal stab that has an elevator with a movable trim tab and a straight wing with large flaps that produce lots of downwash and increase the angle of attack on the stab, are design characteristics that will always be conducive to tail stalls.

If the industry is going to continue to use these types of airplanes in icing conditions they need to be honest with the pilots they train about the capabilities and limitations of said aircraft and the pilots need to be honest with themselves about them as well. The pilots that fly these airplanes and claim they are "great" in ice say so because they are reassuring themselves and protecting their egos. They are NOT great in ice, they are just barely adequate and meet the minimum requirements.

In the Caravan we were told NEVER to lower flaps if tail plane icing was suspected and to hold an approach speed of 120 kts (15 kts above the published minimum speed in ice of 105kts) until the flare if possible. It makes me really curious as to the training practices used at Colgan on this subject.

There are only two possibilities IF this was indeed a tail stall. Either the training at Colgan was not adequate and did not adress the subject like it should have, or it was adequate and these pilots forgot/disregarded their training for whatever reason, i.e. fatigue etc.

 

[BoilerUP]

Ultimately turboprops will only be safe in ice if they can figure out a way to efficiently and cost effectively get some hot bleed air to the wing and tail surfaces.

I fly a straight-wing turbojet with boots...there are only 2000+ of them out there after nearly 40 years of operation. Looks like you flew one too, as well as a couple different models of King Airs. Did you really feel unsafe in icing conditions in any of those airframes?

I agree that anti-icing is better than de-icing, but boots work good & last a long time....if you understand what the system will and will not do for you.

 

[Papa Woody]

All these guys saying how well their airframe handles ice just means they haven't crashed yet

Severe ice is rare. Most guys who say they've seen it are mistaken.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Did you really feel unsafe in icing conditions in any of those airframes?

I didn't feel unsafe because I knew the limitations of those particular airplanes as well as my own and I stayed within them. Having said that, you are correct that the airplanes you mentioned are also more susceptible to a tail stall than a jet with hot surfaces and a stabilator.

It's all about understanding the limits of your airplane and not kidding yourself about what you can and can't do with it. For example, I knew the CE-500 series had limitations compared to a jet with hot surfaces, albeit less limitations than say the Caravan due to the fact that it had a much cleaner fuselage and much less surface area for collection as well as much more power available as well as smaller flaps that didn't produce the same amount of downwash. Also, jets spend less time in icing conditions than turboprops for the most part, due to their greater altitude capabilites and typically higher descent profiles.

 

[Papa Woody]

even TKS is better.

You're right. In fact, TKS is even superior to a hot-wing, though it is too heavy and expensive (and messy!) to install on large airplanes.

My experience in TKS-equipped Mooney's shows complete ice protection of the entire airframe.

My turbojet experience has many stories of iced-up lenses, winglets, nose-cones, and non-deiced empennage.

 

[Sig]

It's all about understanding the limits of your airplane and not kidding yourself about what you can and can't do with it.

With all due respect, Auburn- and that means quite a bit of respect- what about knowing the limits of an airplane you've never flown, and what you can and can't do with it?

Looking at the top 30 on Piedmont's seniority list, I'm guessing the aggregate experience on the Dash 8 is almost half a million flight hours alone. We have captains with almost 20K in type. Not a single one of them has put one in because they didn't know the capabilities of the plane in ice, and I guarantee every one of them has seen truly severe icing.

The plane is exceptionally capable.

 

[satpak77]

guys not to play referee here but I think something else (in addition to ice) happened here. I am eager, like all of us, to see what plays out in the coming weeks.

Straight up, pure "ice took it down" theory I am not buying it.

but that is just me

 

[WSurf]

Severe ice is rare. Most guys who say they've seen it are mistaken.

Define Severe Ice?

If your talking about Ice building faster then the De-Icing can shed it, I have seen that 3 times in my career. (Twice at CommutAir in a 1900D and once in a Dash 8). And it scared the hell out of me, but a quick exit usually in a decent got me out of it.

 

[svcta]

Somebody needs to go back to flight school. Southwest is no more the opposite direction of Northwest than up is the opposite direction of left.

It's like none of you read the 300 post thread already going on this subject.

The NTSB brief indicated that the aircraft impacted the ground FLAT and on a heading that was 180 deg from the inbound course of the approach, which left if pointed to the N.E. I'm sure that the FDR data tells them the a/c heading before the departure. And since the approach controller had been vectoring folks one after another on to that approach, and that the a/c was lost right over the FAF, I can convince myself that they were probably established.

And, everyone, the NASA video has been posted about a dozen times. My main point is that it seems as if people are posting on the subject without even taking the time to get up to speed on what has already been improperly covered in excruciating improper detail right here at FI. At least to this point people posting here have had a grasp of the limited facts that we've gleaned from the briefs and tapes. Let's keep it that way at a minimum.

 

[MALSR]

I'm curious about runback on the horizontal stab and wing. Maybe the leading edge boots were doing an adequate job but their was a lot of clear ice that ran back behind the boots. This could be a contributing factor and is the only thing that scares me about flying pneumatic boots. I can tell what my leading edges are doing but how do you determine of there is significant runback?

 

[relief tube]

This definitely required its own thread.

condescending sarcasm - classy.

Don't know about you froot loop, but trying to read a 12 page thread full 50% of "my prayers....etc" when all you want to get to is the meat of the crash causes ain't gonna work. A new thread is much better.