Colgan 3047 NEW

[RJLoser]

Colgan 3407 New Info

According to the NTSB:

The AC was landing to the southwest. Crash site indicated AC impacted flat not nose down. AC was facing the NW. Opposite of direction it was landing.

NTSB also stated the stick shaker was acitvated which was followed by the stick pusher. The autopilot was on until the AC disconnected it. The flaps were seleced 15. The flaps only reached 10 before the crew selected them up.

 

[Max Q]

This definitely required its own thread.

 

[airplane wizard]

I thought they were not supposed to use the a/p in icing conditions as a result of the atr in Indiana?

 

[WSurf]

I thought they were not supposed to use the a/p in icing conditions as a result of the atr in Indiana?

You can use it, but ever so often you should disconnect it and feel the pressures of Roll and Pitch.

Now if your in really bad ice, were its building faster then the boots can shed it (which I have only seen 3 times in my flying career), then you should be handflying the plane and at the same time trying to exit the extreme icing conditions. And like the NASA video reports a change of 2000' feet either up or down will definitely change how much ice you are accumilating.

 

[ms6073]

I have read of numerous pilots with time in type comment how confident they were in the airframes abilities during icing encounters but I have to wonder. Any thoughts on the posibility that as a result of ice acretion during descent and level off, that the AP was streadily rolling in elevator trim (as in Roselawn)?

 

[TOOL CRIB]

I have read of numerous pilots with time in type comment how confident they were in the airframes abilities during icing encounters but I have to wonder. Any thoughts on the posibility that as a result of ice acretion during descent and level off, that the AP was streadily rolling in elevator trim (as in Roselawn)?

All these guys saying how well their airframe handles ice just means they haven't crashed yet

 

[joe_pilot]

According to the NTSB:

The AC was landing to the southwest. Crash site indicated AC impacted flat not nose down. AC was facing the NW. Opposite of direction it was landing.

NTSB also stated the stick shaker was acitvated which was followed by the stick pusher. The autopilot was on until the AC disconnected it. The flaps were seleced 15. The flaps only reached 10 before the crew selected them up.

While this might sound like a 180 degree offset, it's really probably(possibly) much less.

Last vector was to hdg 260 to join, so the upset event only had to turn them 30 degrees or so to the right to be facing NW.

This crew went down fighting, trying to recover from the event.

I'm gonna raise my glass to them right now. Again.

Everybody fly safe.

-JP

 

[G21Agoose]

This definitely required its own thread.

Well said.

 

[ms6073]

Agree - well said!

Another question for those with time in type, I realize that one of the displays on the instrument panel would be configured to include control/trim config data but if both pilots had PD/ND configured for the approach, can the FO see the elevator trim indicator on the left side of the pedestal from the right seat. I am asking based on a cursory glance at a couple cockpit photos which seems to suggest the actual pitch trim indicator on the left side of the pedestal might be masked by the power levers!

 

[G21Agoose]

Agree - well said!

Another question for those with time in type, I realize that one of the displays on the instrument panel would be configured to include control/trim config data but if both pilots had PD/ND configured for the approach, can the FO see the elevator trim indicator on the left side of the pedestal from the right seat. I am asking based on a cursory glance at a couple cockpit photos which seems to suggest the actual pitch trim indicator on the left side of the pedestal might be masked by the power levers!

OK, I just puked on my Spaniel..........uke:

 

[blzr]

I really hope there turns out to be more to the story than just NOT advancing the power levers.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Agree - well said!

Another question for those with time in type, I realize that one of the displays on the instrument panel would be configured to include control/trim config data but if both pilots had PD/ND configured for the approach, can the FO see the elevator trim indicator on the left side of the pedestal from the right seat. I am asking based on a cursory glance at a couple cockpit photos which seems to suggest the actual pitch trim indicator on the left side of the pedestal might be masked by the power levers!

Actually, no, there is no trim configuration data displayed on any screen at any time. There is hydraulic control surface position displayed (rudder, elevator, spoilers) but not trim conditions.

The elevator trim is visible from the FOs side, but pretty poorly lighted at night, and since there is no actual trim wheel (thumb trim only), you don't have a sense of when and how much the elevator trim is moving (except run away, which beeps at you) unless it happens to be part of your routine flight scan, which I'll admit it is not in my case.

 

[Striptyler]

The autopilot only can trim the elevator. There is an audible warning for more than 2 seconds of movement. Any disagreement between the rudder and elevator trim results in a PFD message.

the autopilot also disengages with a shaker/pusher acitvation.

the only indication is the tab on the center ped. - common type ratings require this. (stupid - this should not be a common type)

 

[NWANFO]

Nasa's Take on Tailplane Icing:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...23060735779946

 

[Turbine Pilot]

Maybe it was 180 degrees because they were in a spin, maybe even a flat spin at the time of impact. That would also explain the severe roll and pitch movements. A spin on an FDR probably will take time to figure out if that is what it was. I thought about a tail stall, but doubt that. Who knows.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

If the AC impacted only part of the house or a tree, wouldn't that spin/cartwheel the AC?

 

[HalinTexas]

Nasa's Take on Tailplane Icing:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...23060735779946

Great video!

Everyone watch it. It's worth your time.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

:

The AC was landing to the southwest. Crash site indicated AC impacted flat not nose down. AC was facing the NW. Opposite of direction it was landing.

Somebody needs to go back to flight school. Southwest is no more the opposite direction of Northwest than up is the opposite direction of left.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

All these guys saying how well their airframe handles ice just means they haven't crashed yet

Yeah, I agree.
A friend of mine is a Captain over at Lynx on the Q400 and that's what he's always saying.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Yeah, I agree.
A friend of mine is a Captain over at Lynx on the Q400 and that's what he's always saying.

It's also what a bunch of Caravan pilots used to say before that thing started dropping out of the sky regularly due to ice.

Guys, the bottom line is that straight wing turboprop aircraft with "deice" boots as the method of ice removal/prevention will never be "good" icing airplanes. They are scraping the barrel of icing protection. If you think about it a system designed at trying to take care of the problem after it has already started is behind the curve from the get go. Anti ice systems designed around prevention will always be the best systems, even TKS is better.

Ultimately turboprops will only be safe in ice if they can figure out a way to efficiently and cost effectively get some hot bleed air to the wing and tail surfaces. Also, if you watch the NASA video, the use of a fixed horizontal stab that has an elevator with a movable trim tab and a straight wing with large flaps that produce lots of downwash and increase the angle of attack on the stab, are design characteristics that will always be conducive to tail stalls.

If the industry is going to continue to use these types of airplanes in icing conditions they need to be honest with the pilots they train about the capabilities and limitations of said aircraft and the pilots need to be honest with themselves about them as well. The pilots that fly these airplanes and claim they are "great" in ice say so because they are reassuring themselves and protecting their egos. They are NOT great in ice, they are just barely adequate and meet the minimum requirements.

In the Caravan we were told NEVER to lower flaps if tail plane icing was suspected and to hold an approach speed of 120 kts (15 kts above the published minimum speed in ice of 105kts) until the flare if possible. It makes me really curious as to the training practices used at Colgan on this subject.

There are only two possibilities IF this was indeed a tail stall. Either the training at Colgan was not adequate and did not adress the subject like it should have, or it was adequate and these pilots forgot/disregarded their training for whatever reason, i.e. fatigue etc.