Colgan 3047 NEW

[BoilerUP]

Ultimately turboprops will only be safe in ice if they can figure out a way to efficiently and cost effectively get some hot bleed air to the wing and tail surfaces.

I fly a straight-wing turbojet with boots...there are only 2000+ of them out there after nearly 40 years of operation. Looks like you flew one too, as well as a couple different models of King Airs. Did you really feel unsafe in icing conditions in any of those airframes?

I agree that anti-icing is better than de-icing, but boots work good & last a long time....if you understand what the system will and will not do for you.

 

[Papa Woody]

All these guys saying how well their airframe handles ice just means they haven't crashed yet

Severe ice is rare. Most guys who say they've seen it are mistaken.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Did you really feel unsafe in icing conditions in any of those airframes?

I didn't feel unsafe because I knew the limitations of those particular airplanes as well as my own and I stayed within them. Having said that, you are correct that the airplanes you mentioned are also more susceptible to a tail stall than a jet with hot surfaces and a stabilator.

It's all about understanding the limits of your airplane and not kidding yourself about what you can and can't do with it. For example, I knew the CE-500 series had limitations compared to a jet with hot surfaces, albeit less limitations than say the Caravan due to the fact that it had a much cleaner fuselage and much less surface area for collection as well as much more power available as well as smaller flaps that didn't produce the same amount of downwash. Also, jets spend less time in icing conditions than turboprops for the most part, due to their greater altitude capabilites and typically higher descent profiles.

 

[Papa Woody]

even TKS is better.

You're right. In fact, TKS is even superior to a hot-wing, though it is too heavy and expensive (and messy!) to install on large airplanes.

My experience in TKS-equipped Mooney's shows complete ice protection of the entire airframe.

My turbojet experience has many stories of iced-up lenses, winglets, nose-cones, and non-deiced empennage.

 

[Sig]

It's all about understanding the limits of your airplane and not kidding yourself about what you can and can't do with it.

With all due respect, Auburn- and that means quite a bit of respect- what about knowing the limits of an airplane you've never flown, and what you can and can't do with it?

Looking at the top 30 on Piedmont's seniority list, I'm guessing the aggregate experience on the Dash 8 is almost half a million flight hours alone. We have captains with almost 20K in type. Not a single one of them has put one in because they didn't know the capabilities of the plane in ice, and I guarantee every one of them has seen truly severe icing.

The plane is exceptionally capable.

 

[satpak77]

guys not to play referee here but I think something else (in addition to ice) happened here. I am eager, like all of us, to see what plays out in the coming weeks.

Straight up, pure "ice took it down" theory I am not buying it.

but that is just me

 

[WSurf]

Severe ice is rare. Most guys who say they've seen it are mistaken.

Define Severe Ice?

If your talking about Ice building faster then the De-Icing can shed it, I have seen that 3 times in my career. (Twice at CommutAir in a 1900D and once in a Dash 8). And it scared the hell out of me, but a quick exit usually in a decent got me out of it.

 

[svcta]

Somebody needs to go back to flight school. Southwest is no more the opposite direction of Northwest than up is the opposite direction of left.

It's like none of you read the 300 post thread already going on this subject.

The NTSB brief indicated that the aircraft impacted the ground FLAT and on a heading that was 180 deg from the inbound course of the approach, which left if pointed to the N.E. I'm sure that the FDR data tells them the a/c heading before the departure. And since the approach controller had been vectoring folks one after another on to that approach, and that the a/c was lost right over the FAF, I can convince myself that they were probably established.

And, everyone, the NASA video has been posted about a dozen times. My main point is that it seems as if people are posting on the subject without even taking the time to get up to speed on what has already been improperly covered in excruciating improper detail right here at FI. At least to this point people posting here have had a grasp of the limited facts that we've gleaned from the briefs and tapes. Let's keep it that way at a minimum.

 

[MALSR]

I'm curious about runback on the horizontal stab and wing. Maybe the leading edge boots were doing an adequate job but their was a lot of clear ice that ran back behind the boots. This could be a contributing factor and is the only thing that scares me about flying pneumatic boots. I can tell what my leading edges are doing but how do you determine of there is significant runback?

 

[relief tube]

This definitely required its own thread.

condescending sarcasm - classy.

Don't know about you froot loop, but trying to read a 12 page thread full 50% of "my prayers....etc" when all you want to get to is the meat of the crash causes ain't gonna work. A new thread is much better.

 

[pilotyip]

I think I saw it

Severe ice is rare. Most guys who say they've seen it are mistaken.

Coming out of Pittsburg winter 78 in the L-188. In frezzing rain, the build up was above what the windshield would handle. FE was running the wings and tail heat at maximum cycle, ie do the wings, then do the tail, back to the wings. The hot air kept the wings clean, except where the support structure of the wing did not have heat. When you looked at the wing it was like an x-ray showing all the ribs and stringers behind the leading skin. The inlet scoops on the prop dome where all covered in ice even though the prop dome had continous heat. Climbed out of it and continued out trip. I had had seen a lot ice flying P-3's over the North Atlantic in the winter, but never anything like this. I think I remember in L-188 GS, the instructor said the L-188 was certified for flight in severe icing. But I never saw it in writing.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

With all due respect, Auburn- and that means quite a bit of respect- what about knowing the limits of an airplane you've never flown, and what you can and can't do with it?

Looking at the top 30 on Piedmont's seniority list, I'm guessing the aggregate experience on the Dash 8 is almost half a million flight hours alone. We have captains with almost 20K in type. Not a single one of them has put one in because they didn't know the capabilities of the plane in ice, and I guarantee every one of them has seen truly severe icing.

The plane is exceptionally capable.

Agreed.

Every type of anti/deicing system has its plusses and minuses. While I agree that, by and large, hot wings provide outstanding protection against ice accretion, that does not mean that some boot equiped aircraft are not exceptionally capable.

I have flown the ATR and the Dash (100/200/300) through very challenging icing conditions that occurred in nearly all phases of flight. I have found over and over again that the Dash 8 models I fly are honest and predictable with ice on the airplane and exceptionally effective at removing it from the critical surfaces. That being said, I know that all airplanes have their limits, and the Dash is no exception. But I have no qualms whatsoever when it comes to operating the airplane in those conditions.

 

[patq1]

This is going to turn out a lot simpler than everyone is theorizing. Watch your airspeed whether or not you are in icing conditions and you won't fall out of the sky. Multiengine turboprops and jets have load of excess power. I cannot imagine a situation where there isn't enough excess power at low altitudes to keep the airspeed high enough. Follow the manufacturers' recommendations and you will be ok.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

I have flown the ATR and the Dash (100/200/300) through very challenging icing conditions that occurred in nearly all phases of flight. I have found over and over again that the Dash 8 models I fly are honest and predictable with ice on the airplane and exceptionally effective at removing it from the critical surfaces.

Agree that the smaller dashes are exceptional in ice (though I have to wonder now how close I've been to catastrophe in the past). If memory serves, the airfoils on the 400 are not of the same design as the ones on the 1/2/3 models.

I should add that by exceptional, I don't mean invincible. I've seen climb capability KTFO several times crossing the Cascades.

 

[WSurf]

This is going to turn out a lot simpler than everyone is theorizing. Watch your airspeed whether or not you are in icing conditions and you won't fall out of the sky. Multiengine turboprops and jets have load of excess power. I cannot imagine a situation where there isn't enough excess power at low altitudes to keep the airspeed high enough. Follow the manufacturers' recommendations and you will be ok.

Yes, also while I was flying a 1900D model my Captain gave me a great tip that I have passed on to many of my FO's. While in cruise in icing conditions simple reach over and bug your Airspeed to what your cruise IAS reads. This is a easy way to notice if your airspeed bleeds off.
I have seen it slowly bleed off to look and see that I was in rapid building clear Ice at night.

So if your in cruise flight in icing use that Airspeed bug to your advantage.

 

[MALSR]

This is going to turn out a lot simpler than everyone is theorizing. Watch your airspeed whether or not you are in icing conditions and you won't fall out of the sky. Multiengine turboprops and jets have load of excess power. I cannot imagine a situation where there isn't enough excess power at low altitudes to keep the airspeed high enough. Follow the manufacturers' recommendations and you will be ok.

If you increase power and airspeed on approach in the ice you also increase downwash, which is a leading cause of tailplane stalls.

 

[airplane wizard]

Maybe it was 180 degrees because they were in a spin, maybe even a flat spin at the time of impact. That would also explain the severe roll and pitch movements. A spin on an FDR probably will take time to figure out if that is what it was. I thought about a tail stall, but doubt that. Who knows.

is the dash 8 at all recoverable from a spin?

 

[IBNAV8R]

Just read a news article that suggested the crew might have been doing a 180 degree turn - a standard procedure to shed the ice. Pulling the nose up or pushing it over is another common technique. Of course the stall shaker make have come on which points the airplane towards the ground. "God love 'em"

 

[WSurf]

Chealander says the preliminary investigation indicates the autopilot was still on when the plane crashed.


Interesting.

 

[Sig]

is the dash 8 at all recoverable from a spin?

In the simulator, yes.

The rudder (both, really) is (are) ginormous. It was a JFNA part of a CQ once, where the instructor let us play for 20 minutes. We simulated both engines in reverse in flight, and the plane fully departed controlled flight. It was wild.

But that doesn't really apply here...

The rudder has so much authority single engine takeoffs are possible in the sim (with enough runway). ** Now that I think about it, any multiengine plane could do that...