Cmr Situation

[PuffDriver]

I agree %100. I have been saying the same thing. Comair is basically in the wrong place at the wrong time on this one. That is why I am asking you, what does "you made your bed, you lie in it" mean or have to do with us parking planes? You said it and it resembles other sentiments such as "Comair screwed themselves" I occasionally hear. It is just something people parrot. I don't know why it grates on me. I guess it would be like Delta announcing 1,000 furloughs and me saying, "they did it to themselves." It just doesn't make sense.

Comair was not in the wrong place at the wrong time. Well, maybe that is part of it. I would say that a useless strike did more damage to them than anything else. Management doesn't like strikes, and Comair pilots overplayed their hand with regard to leverage, and got spanked-hard. That is called making your own bed. Add to the fact they they jumped on their own RJ wagon and overbought--with the help of Delta. Way to many 50 seaters. ASA and skywest will be in the same predicament shortly, although to a lesser degree initially, then to a greater degree as 76 seaters go away.

On a personal level, the MEC behind the scenes held hands with their RJDC buddies. That effectively declared war on the Delta pilots, especially initially as the lawsuit sought to abrogate section 1 of the Delta PWA. That is called making your own bed. When your company is reducing fleets, and very few carriers are hiring, you really don't want to make enemies of the one who is.

gain, what does that really mean? "Someone else's flying?" Are you going to start flying the RJ's? ... are you going to "take them back?" It's just flying that is going away. You didn't want it, there was a market for it, so others did it. You still don't want it, the market for that flying is going away and so RJs are being parked. Plane and simple.

I want to agree with you. I feel like you take a logical approach to what is happening here. But then you throw out a few of these comments that seem to be inconsistent.

I'm going to assume that you are actually being serious with your questions--as in giving you the benefit of the doubt. Delta pilots own all of the flying performed for Delta--including the Comair flying. The Delta pilots have allowed certain percentages of that flying to be outsourced. That flying is always subject to modification in contractual discussions between the Delta pilots and Delta. So Comair pilots are contract pilots. Many overzealous Comair pilots chose to predicate their living on the chance that the RJ bubble would never burst. Bad idea. The markets are not going away, they are going to be done with larger gauge aircraft, and less frequency. Those that cannot support larger gauge aircraft will be dummied down to less frequency of 50 seat aircraft , or possibly even turboprops. Thus, the shrinkage you are seeing. That is called making your own bed. Some people bet a cereer at a regional--whos existence depends on the particular mood of Delta and its pilots on contract day, low oil price, frivolous lawsuits, etc.

Finally, Comair pilots didn't bet that everyone wouldn't go along with their scheme of making Comair a career airline. Republic came in and undercut, ASA did too, pinnacle, compass. Comair pilots chose not play ball--at least until it was too late. They went it alone with useless strikes, frivolous lawsuits, etc. That is called making your own bed. Now, they are an expensive airline, and cheaper alternatives are out there.

But hey, on the upside, you have a Comair pilots running around triple dog daring anybody to meet him in the sim. That also, is making your own bed.

 

[Varmint]

......

 

[sunlitpath]

I have been flying for 13 years and just logged on to this forum. I will lose my job as a Comair pilot when the furloughs are complete or the company is dissolved. I was hoping to find some information or intelligent conversation on the matter.

I guess I'm shocked at what I've read on flightinfo. Aren't we supposed to be "professionals" with whom the public entrusts their lives to arrive safely at their destination? I swear that some of the posts on this site were written by teenie-boppers upset with each other because one called the other a slut on her facebook page or thinks Justin Bieber isn't as cool as the Jonas Brothers. I can tell you one thing -- if I had a way to ascertain who some of the loudmouths on here flew for, I'd NEVER put my family on any plane in their airline's fleet....it would be too risky that they could be the aircraft commander. Yes, "GeneralLee/ScopeoutRJ's" -- I'm talking about guys like you.

We are all pilots and need to support each other. Any pilot with any maturity knows that this industry has much more to do with luck and timing than with skill and competence. You are where you are, to a large degree, because your timing and luck were good or bad. And I walk through the airport and I am instantly judged as inferior simply because of the uniform I wear?

Some people on this website need to grow up. Leave your 757/767 cockpit and go fly a metroliner or aerostar single pilot, or (God forbid) pilot a rotary-wing aircraft. If you survived, it would be a good learning experience and a lesson that bigger iron does not equal a better pilot. We are all pilots. We should all be one brotherhood. Act like it, and show respect and compassion to someone who is trying to support a family knowing they will be without a paycheck in the near future. The people degrading those about to be furloughed trying to provide for their children are the same ones who would be sobbing, sucking their thumb curled up in the fetal position if this were happening to them.

Your points are well taken. You are a man who is down on his luck right now. Many of the people who post on this forum have forgotten the old maxim of " don't kick a man when he is down". Press on, my friend. Don't let the flies spoil your picnic. Take solace in your loved ones. The sun will shine brightly soon...

 

[agonyairfo]

Puffdriver, Comair is in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's it.

"A useless strike damaged us?...we got spanked hard?" We doubled our size after that. How is that getting spanked hard? The strike caused changes for sure. Delta diversified the regional flying. But this was years ago. With this logic your dog takes a dump on the rug and you would wait 9 years to smack his nose so he clearly gets the message.

Jumping on the "rj bandwagon" has some plausibility. But what should we have done as a regional operator? Would a better business decision have been to keep operating the Brasilia? And if we are just "contractors" then we definitely should have operated all the 50s they would throw our way for as long as possible.

"Delta pilots own all of the flying performed for Delta--including the Comair flying. The Delta pilots have allowed certain percentages of that flying to be outsourced."

What percentages? The percentages as in 100% of the little planes you don't want to fly? Not like 10% of the 777s, and 10% of the 767s, 10% 757s...etc. Why are you bothering with this particular argument? You didn't want the RJs so others took them. The big question is... do you want the C-series? I hope YOU have learned your lesson and won't be giving that away.

I am not the Comair or regional airline apologist. I was a pilot long before my time at Comair and I will be a pilot long after. I just have spent time here so I feel like there are misconceptions about what has taken place here and what the average crew member thinks like. Maybe you haven't met many Comair pilots and the only contact you have are the 1 percenters on here. The average guy who is maybe less than 1/2 seniority or under 45 probably wants Delta to keep their own airplanes. I am not saying that the senior guys want your airplanes either. But, I cant really speak for them. All they know is that they were happy doing what they were doing, their stock kept splitting, the company kept growing, they owned the fuel at CVG and Delta was buying their fuel from Comair (important trivia fact), they were not a "feeder" for Delta, more than 50% or their thru passengers were their own, management had incredible plans for the future.... Fast forward a decade...Delta has bought that same airline and spit them out the other side. It would be hard to say what would have happened to the original Comair otherwise (don't say Independence Air!). But I don't understand why you don't look favorably upon a group that tried to turn this into a decent job. You view us as bottom feeders on one hand, yet resent that we tried to make it better here on the other.

Would you care to lay out hypothetically how the last 20 years should have played out in regards to the Legacy's and the Regionals? (I will save you the trouble and say I agree if you offer some version of Delta flying should be Delta flying therefore, for better or worse that all RJs should have been placed on Delta property and any airline they bought should have been integrated. Or alternatively, ... they should not have bought other airlines and no RJs should exist.) Otherwise, you have a mess that probably looks like what we have now and this discussion is a waste of time.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puffdriver, Comair is in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's it.

"A useless strike damaged us?...we got spanked hard?" We doubled our size after that. How is that getting spanked hard? The strike caused changes for sure. Delta diversified the regional flying. But this was years ago. With this logic your dog takes a dump on the rug and you would wait 9 years to smack his nose so he clearly gets the message.

Jumping on the "rj bandwagon" has some plausibility. But what should we have done as a regional operator? Would a better business decision have been to keep operating the Brasilia? And if we are just "contractors" then we definitely should have operated all the 50s they would throw our way for as long as possible.

"Delta pilots own all of the flying performed for Delta--including the Comair flying. The Delta pilots have allowed certain percentages of that flying to be outsourced."

What percentages? The percentages as in 100% of the little planes you don't want to fly? Not like 10% of the 777s, and 10% of the 767s, 10% 757s...etc. Why are you bothering with this particular argument? You didn't want the RJs so others took them. The big question is... do you want the C-series? I hope YOU have learned your lesson and won't be giving that away.

I am not the Comair or regional airline apologist. I was a pilot long before my time at Comair and I will be a pilot long after. I just have spent time here so I feel like there are misconceptions about what has taken place here and what the average crew member thinks like. Maybe you haven't met many Comair pilots and the only contact you have are the 1 percenters on here. The average guy who is maybe less than 1/2 seniority or under 45 probably wants Delta to keep their own airplanes. I am not saying that the senior guys want your airplanes either. But, I cant really speak for them. All they know is that they were happy doing what they were doing, their stock kept splitting, the company kept growing, they owned the fuel at CVG and Delta was buying their fuel from Comair (important trivia fact), they were not a "feeder" for Delta, more than 50% or their thru passengers were their own, management had incredible plans for the future.... Fast forward a decade...Delta has bought that same airline and spit them out the other side. It would be hard to say what would have happened to the original Comair otherwise (don't say Independence Air!). But I don't understand why you don't look favorably upon a group that tried to turn this into a decent job. You view us as bottom feeders on one hand, yet resent that we tried to make it better here on the other.

Would you care to lay out hypothetically how the last 20 years should have played out in regards to the Legacy's and the Regionals? (I will save you the trouble and say I agree if you offer some version of Delta flying should be Delta flying therefore, for better or worse that all RJs should have been placed on Delta property and any airline they bought should have been integrated. Or alternatively, ... they should not have bought other airlines and no RJs should exist.) Otherwise, you have a mess that probably looks like what we have now and this discussion is a waste of time.

Our time is done. You started off inquisitive, and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. If you don't or won't see what is happening and the reason it is happening, I can't help you. Keep watching, you'll see. Later.

 

[N813CA]

Comair pilot a contract pilot! I think Delta owns Comair so comair pilots are NOT a contract pilot. Look up the definition.

 

[Speedtape]

Dearest Puff,

Delta Inc. owns Comair. Delta Inc. owns Delta Airlines. If one of you is a contract pilot, then both of you are contract pilots.

FYI--Delta Inc. owns the flying. You get what they give you. It's been that way for years! Otherwise, you would be doing 100% of the flying instead of 50%.

Now go do your son's homework. You may learn something useful.

Canis Canem Edit

 

[PuffDriver]

Dearest Puff,

Delta Inc. owns Comair. Delta Inc. owns Delta Airlines. If one of you is a contract pilot, then both of you are contract pilots.

FYI--Delta Inc. owns the flying. You get what they give you. It's been that way for years! Otherwise, you would be doing 100% of the flying instead of 50%.

Now go do your son's homework. You may learn something useful.

Canis Canem Edit

Nup. "All flying performed by or for the Company or any affiliate will be performed by pilots in accordance with the terms and conditions of this PWA.


That is a quote, huckleberry. You won't find that quote in the Comair contract. The RJDC settled for a reason. Keep trying though.
:bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling:

 

[clickclickboom]

Leave your 757/767 cockpit and go fly an aerostar or metro single pilot?

I am sorry sir but I would have to say that the guy in the 75 already has been there and done that. I know i have and remember some nights so bad that i followed the plow truck to the runway and sat in position while they cleared a swath.

NBD approaches to mins at 3am and circle to land with 25 knot winds in canada single pilot

Blown motor on a Baron just as I hit the slop on takeoff in icing conditions at 300 feet in a valley

Been there done that didnt die and didnt touch a 121 cockpit until i had over 6000 hrs

What experience does a 400hr gulfstream, atp, or riddle 0 to job in 18 months bring to his regional cockpit? Theory of experience 101???

 

[flyboyike]

I would say that a useless strike did more damage to them than anything else.

If I may ask (and this is a general question, not necessarily about Comair or even airline industry in general) what makes a strike (any strike) useful?

 

[vandeley]

Leave your 757/767 cockpit and go fly an aerostar or metro single pilot?

I am sorry sir but I would have to say that the guy in the 75 already has been there and done that. I know i have and remember some nights so bad that i followed the plow truck to the runway and sat in position while they cleared a swath.

NBD approaches to mins at 3am and circle to land with 25 knot winds in canada single pilot

Blown motor on a Baron just as I hit the slop on takeoff in icing conditions at 300 feet in a valley

Been there done that didnt die and didnt touch a 121 cockpit until i had over 6000 hrs

What experience does a 400hr gulfstream, atp, or riddle 0 to job in 18 months bring to his regional cockpit? Theory of experience 101???

I absolutely and completely agree with you. The "400 hour wonder" pilots have done a lot to destroy the professionalism and competency associated with 121 aviation. (Think Pinnacle's 410 Club, for example)

My point was that it is very easy to forget where you came from -- whether it's a 75 guy looking at a Baron pilot or Ray Lewis talking to a city club team linebacker. You obviously have a wealth of experience from the events you cited. So why is it that a Delta pilot must check my wings/id before simply saying hello to me or acknowledging me when I say hello? Why am I his enemy? I don't have a say in any decisions that are made about who gets new planes or who flies given routes or who can flow back after furlough. I hate regional airlines as much as he does...but right now I'm just trying to survive to be able to move on.

 

[flyboyike]

For the record, I've never had a mainline (or any other) pilot "check my ID" before saying hello. Nor have I ever had any problems jumpseating on any carrier.

Maybe it's just me.

 

[xjhawk]

just another reason why you should not say to yourself "I think I like it here (insert regional carrier name here), I have comfortable pay and a great schedule AND I do not have to commute. I am living the high life so I am not going to a major and risk having to commute, be Junior for a long time and go back on reserve. Notice to all regional pilots. Please stay at your regional since you have it so good, that will take away a lot of resumes they have to sift through in order to get to mine. Ha Ha

 

[Speedtape]

Nup. "All flying performed by or for the Company or any affiliate will be performed by pilots in accordance with the terms and conditions of this PWA.


That is a quote, huckleberry. You won't find that quote in the Comair contract. The RJDC settled for a reason. Keep trying though.
:bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling:

Why, then, do you do less than 50% of the flying? What is it that you own--the piece of paper that your contract is written on?

 

[Speedtape]

just another reason why you should not say to yourself "I think I like it here (insert regional carrier name here), I have comfortable pay and a great schedule AND I do not have to commute. I am living the high life so I am not going to a major and risk having to commute, be Junior for a long time and go back on reserve. Notice to all regional pilots. Please stay at your regional since you have it so good, that will take away a lot of resumes they have to sift through in order to get to mine. Ha Ha

What thread are you on? "just another reason why you should not say to yourself "I think I like it here"

You must like it here.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Why, then, do you do less than 50% of the flying? What is it that you own--the piece of paper that your contract is written on?

If you can't read, you cannot be helped. You are right. Delta pilots do not perform all of their flying. Neither does every other major out there, cargo carriers included. here's the thing though. Comair performs 100% of its flying, yet is going away at an alarming rate.
I'll take Delta


The Delta pilots own the flying. Comair is a contractor, subject to removal at any time.

 

[PuffDriver]

Why, then, do you do less than 50% of the flying? What is it that you own--the piece of paper that your contract is written on?

Yawn.

You've run out of time as well.

This thread has run its course.

 

[Speedtape]

Yawn.

You've run out of time as well.

This thread has run its course.

I guess you can't truthfully answer the question. Resume your homework.

 

[Speedtape]

If you can't read, you cannot be helped. You are right. Delta pilots do not perform all of their flying.
And, Delta pilots do not own the flying. They only own a piece of paper that says so--but does not make it true. If you really owned the flying, then Delta pilots would be doing the flying. Make it happen and I will be the first to salute you. Until then, you perform the flying that Delta, Inc, gives you, just as Comair performs the flying that they are given.

Neither does every other major out there, cargo carriers included. here's the thing though. Comair performs 100% of its flying, yet is going away at an alarming rate.
As of today, Comair is still in business. No one on this forum knows what the future holds for Comair. The assigned flying that Comair is doing has been reducing, but the point is, the flying is not going away, and it is not going to Mainline. So, where is it going (rhetorical)? Joe Knows.
I'll take Delta


The Delta pilots own the flying. Comair is a contractor, subject to removal at any time.

You are confused. Delta pilots have the same corporate relationship to Delta, Inc, as Comair pilots. They both work for separate, but wholly-owned subsidiaries of Delta, Inc. Delta, Inc. owns and distributes the flying. Delta pilots own a piece of paper that makes them believe that they own the flying. If they owned the flying, then Delta pilots would be performing the flying. The piece of paper they own is like a mirage in the desert or a big pacifier--a False Quit Claim Deed. Interestingly enough, a large amount of the flying that Delta, Inc. owns is contracted out. Can Delta pilots terminate or execute those contracts? If they owned or really controlled the flying, then the answer would be yes!

 

[N813CA]

Like Skywest with its 18 year plus contract and such. Really sounds like Delta owns the flying!!!!

 

[WayBack]

Whip out the ruler, mine is bigger!

 

[bacardi]

Vandeley, good luck out there. Don't listen to these clowns on this message board.

 

[knightflyer]

Vandeley, good luck out there. Don't listen to these clowns on this message board.

Acutaly, don't listen to anyone on this board! Especially the Clowns!!!!:laugh:

 

[Bugsmasher Plus]

I'm still waiting for something useful to come out of Puffdriver. And btw, puff what does "you were there when comair made their bed, now you lie in it" (approx. quote) mean?

I hear people say things like, "Comair screwed themselves" and it makes me think. Why are we parking our aircraft now...the real reason? And why do some have a "serves them right" attitude about it? To help me figure this out, would you please indicate which past indiscretion we are now paying for: 1. strike, 2. JC furlough hiring policy, 3. RJDC.

I am just trying to get my ALPA brother's take on it. Thank you

Comair didn't screw themselves, the MEC screwed Comair and the rest of the regional industry with unrealistic expectations as a result of the useless strike.

What is happening today is a DIRECT fallout from the strike. Overnight, the company went from being the most profitable (thus financially secure) regional in history to the most expensive that nobody wanted any part of.

Here's the real kicker... Delta has announced "the PLAN" to shrink the company and work with labor to bring costs in line with the rest of the industry. You really don't think that's going to happen, do you? In the end, it's going to be labor that brings the company to its demise.

 

[Flyprdu]

Comair didn't screw themselves, the MEC screwed Comair and the rest of the regional industry with unrealistic expectations as a result of the useless strike.

What is happening today is a DIRECT fallout from the strike. Overnight, the company went from being the most profitable (thus financially secure) regional in history to the most expensive that nobody wanted any part of.

Here's the real kicker... Delta has announced "the PLAN" to shrink the company and work with labor to bring costs in line with the rest of the industry. You really don't think that's going to happen, do you? In the end, it's going to be labor that brings the company to its demise.

I think management just had an orgasm to your post. They couldn't be happier that untruths like what you just typed have propagated so well over the last decade.

It's nothing but conjecture and blind guessing that brings you to your conclusion... and you spout it off like it were fact. The fact of the matter is you don't know what circumstances brought OH to the situation that they are facing this year. Odds are it was multiple scenarios that prompted this give back... but I can bet you the main reason was the fact that those CRJs were wholly-owned and accessible to cancellation. It has nothing to do with contracts and earnings, pay, or QOL. That's just your own excuse making which allows you to look yourself in the mirror and sleep better for working for sh*t wages all these years.

 

[Bugsmasher Plus]

I think management just had an orgasm to your post. They couldn't be happier that untruths like what you just typed have propagated so well over the last decade.

It's nothing but conjecture and blind guessing that brings you to your conclusion... and you spout it off like it were fact. The fact of the matter is you don't know what circumstances brought OH to the situation that they are facing this year. Odds are it was multiple scenarios that prompted this give back... but I can bet you the main reason was the fact that those CRJs were wholly-owned and accessible to cancellation. It has nothing to do with contracts and earnings, pay, or QOL. That's just your own excuse making which allows you to look yourself in the mirror and sleep better for working for sh*t wages all these years.

Facts? I was in Comair management through the strike and left shortly after. I've watched as all this has unfolded and can tell you as FACT that had JC and the MEC been reasonable and negotiated in good faith prior to the strike, not tried to make an example and "reset" industry pay standards and avoided the work action altogether, Comair would have never been priced out of the competition and would have grown at a greater pace than Skywest or other DCI carriers. Costs were so high that new airframes went to other DCI carriers as well as new markets. As the 200 became less profitable, there was no shift to larger airframes leaving the company at a standstill.

I know about the facts, I was there and part of those "facts." As far as current marketablilty, what holding company on earth would want to deal with that labor situation? We all know that they are not going to work with Delta to make the company attractive to an investor. I can't imagine labor suddenly having a change in heart there to save the company.

 

[Broke in CVG]

Facts? I was in Comair management through the strike and left shortly after. I've watched as all this has unfolded and can tell you as FACT that had JC and the MEC been reasonable and negotiated in good faith prior to the strike, not tried to make an example and "reset" industry pay standards and avoided the work action altogether, Comair would have never been priced out of the competition and would have grown at a greater pace than Skywest or other DCI carriers. Costs were so high that new airframes went to other DCI carriers as well as new markets. As the 200 became less profitable, there was no shift to larger airframes leaving the company at a standstill.

I know about the facts, I was there and part of those "facts." As far as current marketablilty, what holding company on earth would want to deal with that labor situation? We all know that they are not going to work with Delta to make the company attractive to an investor. I can't imagine labor suddenly having a change in heart there to save the company.

FACT - Comair's pay rates are not uncompetitive. Factor in the 1 year loss of longevity due to the BK and we are actually below industry standard.
FACT - Comair's pilot group longevity is what makes the labor cost uncompetitive.
FACT - Delta has 1/2 Comair and will 1/2 again making every pilot (both FO & CA) at the top of their respective pay scale.

FACT - Delta did this.

 

[pinn82]

Don't worry too much Vandeley one of your female FO's was just telling my FO the other day that they are using this as a scare tactic. She said that they are painting 36 CRJ90's up in Montreal right now that are for Comair. Hopefully she is right.

 

[sunlitpath]

Don't worry too much Vandeley one of your female FO's was just telling my FO the other day that they are using this as a scare tactic. She said that they are painting 36 CRJ90's up in Montreal right now that are for Comair. Hopefully she is right.

I think we are way past scare tactics. Freddy's nightmare is now being played out...

 

[tiffanytaylor]

Don't worry too much Vandeley one of your female FO's was just telling my FO the other day that they are using this as a scare tactic. She said that they are painting 36 CRJ90's up in Montreal right now that are for Comair. Hopefully she is right.

Delta doesn't want us anymore. They may come to us but they will go to SkyWest after SkyWest buys Comair's assets and leaves the employees behind. We're screwed over all the way around.