CMR President's Message - Paycuts anyone?

[wms]

A j4j agreement would likely require a vote by ASA/CA. So in other words, there won't be a j4j if it comes before us. Why lower the bar further? If ML guys are gonna fly RJs, then put some future RJs at ML with a respectable pay scale. Don't start some alter-ego.

 

[surplus1]

Vortilon,

My wish is to have the furloughs fly again for a living at a good wage and fly something nice. I also want them to come back as soon as possible. I am not trying to enrage anyone, or to incite a riot.

General,

I think most people would like to see the furloughees fly again and always have. Your ideas of how that should happen are the fly in the ointment.

We have NO IDEA what will happen---but I think Dalpa will not sell our furloughs down the river.

Some would argue that Dalpa has aready created more than its share of obstacles for your furloughees.

I admire you for thinking that Dalpa will not "sell your furloughs down the river". What we find annoying is the idea that you seem to think that we would sell OUR First Officers down the river in order to give your pilots access to their future vacancies and upgrades. It ain't going to happen.

FINS is the one who was talking about possible J4J negotiations. The only reason I brought up CR7s is because Delta wanted unlimited 70 seaters in the last proposal, and that is what DCI currently has. Bye Bye--General Lee

Delta management will decide if it wants more CR7s or something else and where it would like to put them. Ultimately, Delta management will get what it wants from Dalpa in that respect.

There is however one thing that Dalpa will not get and that is the right to put any of your pilots into the left seat of any airplane on our operating certificate, whether old or "new", ahead of our own First Officers. You will get no super seniority from us.

When it comes to that, none of us give a rat's you know what about what "dalpa" thinks or doesn't think. The ONLY way anything like that could possibly occur is through a direct ratification vote by individual pilots in favor of it, the chances of which are slim to none. Any MEC that attempts to impose that without the consent of the pilots, by ballot, will be tarred and feathered post haste, and properly so.

Whether its your idea, dalpa's idea or alpa's idea, the best thing you can do is forget it and go immediately to "Plan B" 'cause that dog ain't gonna hunt in this field.

Better we work on making the best of a bad situation, for everyone. Of course you do have the option of selling your souls to convince the Company that it should create a new airline for your benefit. I wish you luck with that idea, but my guess is you'd have to give them a lot more than the billion they want now. Better quit while you're ahead.

 

[601Pilot]

CR7 Capt positions at ASA/Comair

General,

If a J4J proposal is made, how are you going to staff them? Probably half of
your furloughees don't have an ATP or the required time to be captains under
121. What are you going to do with them?

 

[acarpe3448]

DLTFurloughed

Half of our pilots don't have the time to upgrade? What have you been smoking? In my new hire class in 2000 every pilot had an ATP! Each pilot also had pleanty of experience to handle a left seat RJ job. I think you DCI pilots need to cool down big time. It is no surprise to me that when Delta is handing out mainline flying to you guys at Comair it is all in the name of good business and screw the Delta furloughed pilots. When someone even mentions the idea of RJ flying with Delta pilots in the left seat, it's a fight to the death to protect DCI F/O's rights to upgrade.

I have been out of the game for some time now. I quit looking on this message board like nearly a year ago because the DCI pilots (Comair) sounded like such huge cry babies. I come back today to see the response of the Wednesday announcement and it is the exact same stupid DCI hates Delta arguments still! Tell me something, in addition to being opposed to a J4J to help furloughed pilots comeback, are you guys still trying to steal a spot on the Delta senority list through the RJDC? Unreal!! Can't you guy's get it through your big heads (yes I mean DCI) as well as mainline, that you all are pilots. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good pilots! I swear my 7 year old has more logical fights with his friends about sharing than I hear on this board.

Hey General! Whats up? Thanks for all the support man! #18 on the SNL and ready to come back!! See ya soon!!!!

 

[JohnDoe]

quote from 601pilot:

"If a J4J proposal is made, how are you going to staff them? Probably half of
your furloughees don't have an ATP or the required time to be captains under
121. What are you going to do with them?"




What kind of idiotic assumption is that????

 

[On Your Six]

I presume that any J4J agreement would be for NEW aircraft as opposed to existing aircraft - is that correct? If that were the case, then none of the DCI FOs would be adversely impacted - the positions would be for supplemental aircraft beyond the existing fleet. That would be the most fair way to do things in my opinion.

At Continental, the flowbacks completely displaced COEX FOs - that would not be a favorable outcome and I hope that it wouldn't happen at ASA/Comair. As far as I know all J4J discussions are premature at the moment - everyone is in LIMBO....

 

[General Lee]

601pilot,
You are probably talking about the ASA and Comair guys who might not have enough time to upgrade. Most, if not all of our pilots and furloughed pilots have the time. ASA supposedly hired a few Peanut Brittle interns with 250 hours and 50 ME, so they might not be ready.

Acarpe,

Good to hear from you and we can't wait for your return. Grinstein said in the Reuters article that he does not expect further pilot furloughs, so hopefully you will come back and stay back--even though the pay will undoubtably be less. You might be able to get a 738 FO slot right off the bat in ATL. The future retirements in the near term will be interesting to say the least. Everyone who did not go in SEP must be smacking their head against a wall.....


Surplus1,

I can see that you feel threatened. I believe the recall will yeild about 30-40 pilots a month, and hopefully most of them will go into mainline aircraft. If we do park airplanes and they are directly replaced by 70 seaters, then those pilots deserve first shot at the replacement aircraft. That may not happen at all, and maybe the 737-200s and 733s will be replaced with future 100 seaters like the Emb 190---and then there wouldn't be a loss of hulls and maybe not pilot job losses. But, if the 70 seaters replace the 737s etc---then we will have a problem. Dalpa knows this, and that is where there could be an alternate plan made to include some 70 seaters into the fold. That would be plan B. I am sure Dalpa has back up plans and will try to negotiate for all circumstances. But, this all could be moot if we can get TBKANE back on the property and have him flying a mainline jet. With the current flood of retirements, he could be back sooner than later.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AviatorTx]

But, if the 70 seaters replace the 737s etc---then we will have a problem. Dalpa knows this, and that is where there could be an alternate plan made to include some 70 seaters into the fold.

If mainline pilots are going to fly 70 seat jets, the planes neet to be on mainline property. Period. I'm sure will agree on this part, but;

If DALALPA allows more 70 seaters to go to ASA, Comair, ect... The "regional" pilots on thoses seniority lists should get first crack at them.

Mainline guys... It's your own darn fault that all the growth is at the regionals. you allowed it through your own generous scope clauses, and the fact that most mainline MEC's have pulled the opportunity ladder up behind them by giving away the said scope. CALALPA is a classic example. Since those darn scabs threw us off the MEC and stopped fighting for a flowthrough, I am longing for the day we start flying 737's at Express. Not going to happen soon, but it's going to happen.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

On Your Six has some good points on this one. I flew with an ex-COEX f/o last weekend and he had some not too good things to say about the CAL blowback deal. New Aircraft that goes to mainline, for mainline should be flown by mainline. DL is the one who assigns the airplanes. If they want more 700's to DCI then DCI should fly them. DL is fully aware of all the guys and gals sitting at home right on down to TBKANE. I would hope they would be taken care of first and foremost. Alot of people seem to be getting pretty worked up here and it is only the first day after the revelation!! Sheesh. I am hoping the long range plan is outlined at the first opportunity for all to see and then make some smart decisions for everyone.

 

[General Lee]

I think most of the new growth will be in mainline, with 100 seaters eventually. Those aircraft will most likely go to mainline---and Grinstein pointed out when asked if DCI would eventually fly 100 seaters---he stated, "I can't see them flying it." He may not be around forever, but Dalpa will try to keep their pilots employed. Some people on this board may think it is "Greedy" for Dalpa to go after some 70 seaters----while those same people think Comair should bid for DL's Md88s or future 100 seaters. I think we should look at who is on the street first. When everyone is back, then there should be some frank discussions.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Had not heard of Comair bidding for the 88's, is that just speculation or board chatter? I find it a bit hard to imagine. You're right though, the kids on the street should come first and then we should ALL get together and work on the future of the company.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I don't see why J4J with Captain slots for any NEW aircraft would be a problem - emphasize "New" aircraft. Nobody would lose any current slots and then the Comair/ASA pilots would get all of the added Captain and FO slots as the furloughees are called up to the mainline. For any furloughees who do not have the seniority for Captain positions on NEW aircraft, then they should go to the bottom of the seniority list as FOs. That seems pretty reasonable to me and it is a win-win situation for everyone as Comair/ASA would be adding more new aircraft vs. no real growth at all. Isn't this being applied at both UAL and USAirways?

What part of keeping the seniority system intact is hard to understand? FYI the UAL J4J does not give the furloughees anything other than a flying job and a slot at the bottom of the list. They do get 2nd year pay right off the bat though. The minute you start compromising the seniority system you lose.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Why can't DAL bring future RJ's onto mainline?

Because mainline employees will park, unload, clean, and maintain those aircraft. Remember the "C" or ""D" scale paid to regional employees is spread through all employee groups. It's not just pilot and FA costs.

 

[FDJ2]

Because mainline employees will park, unload, clean, and maintain those aircraft. Remember the "C" or ""D" scale paid to regional employees is spread through all employee groups. It's not just pilot and FA costs.

Not necessarily so. The Song 757s are flown by mainline pilots, but everything else is Song. The same can be done with RJs.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Not necessarily so. The Song 757s are flown by mainline pilots, but everything else is Song. The same can be done with RJs.

I wasn't aware of that. Cut those Song rates in half and it would pretty much be a wash with the regionals. How do they handle MX on Song aircraft? It's hard to imagine a separate group of mechanics working on them.

 

[FDJ2]

I wasn't aware of that. Cut those Song rates in half and it would pretty much be a wash with the regionals. How do they handle MX on Song aircraft? It's hard to imagine a separate group of mechanics working on them.

I suppose they reimburse DAL for any services a DAL mechanic does on a Song aircraft. I believe DCI carriers do the same for certain services from time to time. DAL management must be pleased with the final product and its cosats since they are increasing the Song fleet from 36 to 48 aircraft this year. It's interesting that you would state, "cut those Song rates in half and it would pretty much be a wash with the regionals." What Song rates are you referring too, what are they and how much do the regionals pay for the same job?

 

[Looking4Traffic]

No Concessions

Listen, there will always be disagreement about the issue of concessions and I respect every pilot who's expressed their opinion in this thread.

Here's my opinion and I want you to hear what I'm saying whether you're at Comair, Delta, ASA, Northwest, Pinnacle, Skywest, Mesa, TSA, USAir, Express, Chataq or any other airline . . . whether you're a Republican or Democrat . . . whether you have 200 hours or 20,000 hours . . .

I cannot and will not vote for concessions. And as a two-year pilot at Comair, I have more to gain from concessions than most of you.

The reason I will not agree to concessions is (1) because my value as a professional pilot is more than $38 per hour and (2) because my family cannot afford to live on less than $38 per hour.

Over 250 people entrusted their lives to me and to my >10-year captain today, flying a jet for six legs throughout the Northeast corridor in and out of horrendous weather. We're living in hotels away from our spouses and kids, eating food that we don't want to eat and working 14-15 hours to get paid for seven.

For those of you who reply "if you don't like it, get out", I say "there's no rule that you can't get paid what you're worth just because you like your job."

For those of you who say "it's the law of supply and demand" or a response to the "race to the bottom", I reply that this is the reason that unions were created: to make sure that employees were adequately represented during difficult times when management used the economy and poor debt management as an excuse to undercompensate their workers.

To those of you who are looking to get your PIC time and move on to "bigger and better things", I say "take a look around you". Where are you going?

Look, nobody here has clean hands. I know that it can be argued that my job came at the expense of a Delta pilot who is no longer flying the same route in an MD-80 or 737. I'm just saying that the buck has to stop somewhere and for me, it stops here. At some point the madness has to end and we have to take a stand. CEOs and other executives are the people who make the difficult decisions about the direction the companies should take and then the rest of us labor to implement those decisions. Pilots, flight attendants, ramp agents and ticket agents are the people who keep these airlines running day after day. Don't blame employees if the executives made a wrong decision that cost the company millions (or billions) of dollars; don't give them the golden parachutes and make us take pay cuts.

We should stop blaming each other for the problems that were facing. We're not responsible. We didn't do anything wrong. We're just trying to make a living.

But let's not sell ourselves out any longer. I'm worth more than $38 an hour -- we all are -- and I'm not agreeing to a penny less. If that means that I lose my job or have to sit shotgun for 10 years, then so be it.

At least I'll have my self-respect.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Lookingfortraffic

Awesome post. Agree.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Listen, there will always be disagreement about the issue of concessions and I respect every pilot who's expressed their opinion in this thread.

Here's my opinion and I want you to hear what I'm saying whether you're at Comair, Delta, ASA, Northwest, Pinnacle, Skywest, Mesa, TSA, USAir, Express, Chataq or any other airline . . . whether you're a Republican or Democrat . . . whether you have 200 hours or 20,000 hours . . .

I cannot and will not vote for concessions. And as a two-year pilot at Comair, I have more to gain from concessions than most of you.

The reason I will not agree to concessions is (1) because my value as a professional pilot is more than $38 per hour and (2) because my family cannot afford to live on less than $38 per hour.

Over 250 people entrusted their lives to me and to my >10-year captain today, flying a jet for six legs throughout the Northeast corridor in and out of horrendous weather. We're living in hotels away from our spouses and kids, eating food that we don't want to eat and working 14-15 hours to get paid for seven.

For those of you who reply "if you don't like it, get out", I say "there's no rule that you can't get paid what you're worth just because you like your job."

For those of you who say "it's the law of supply and demand" or a response to the "race to the bottom", I reply that this is the reason that unions were created: to make sure that employees were adequately represented during difficult times when management used the economy and poor debt management as an excuse to undercompensate their workers.

To those of you who are looking to get your PIC time and move on to "bigger and better things", I say "take a look around you". Where are you going?

Look, nobody here has clean hands. I know that it can be argued that my job came at the expense of a Delta pilot who is no longer flying the same route in an MD-80 or 737. I'm just saying that the buck has to stop somewhere and for me, it stops here. At some point the madness has to end and we have to take a stand. CEOs and other executives are the people who make the difficult decisions about the direction the companies should take and then the rest of us labor to implement those decisions. Pilots, flight attendants, ramp agents and ticket agents are the people who keep these airlines running day after day. Don't blame employees if the executives made a wrong decision that cost the company millions (or billions) of dollars; don't give them the golden parachutes and make us take pay cuts.

We should stop blaming each other for the problems that were facing. We're not responsible. We didn't do anything wrong. We're just trying to make a living.

But let's not sell ourselves out any longer. I'm worth more than $38 an hour -- we all are -- and I'm not agreeing to a penny less. If that means that I lose my job or have to sit shotgun for 10 years, then so be it.

At least I'll have my self-respect.

Ditto!

 

[737 Pylt]

well said

But let's not sell ourselves out any longer. I'm worth more than $38 an hour -- we all are -- and I'm not agreeing to a penny less. If that means that I lose my job or have to sit shotgun for 10 years, then so be it.

At least I'll have my self-respect.

It's a great thought, and a nice dream, however, somewhere, someone will always be willing to do your job/ my job for less! Its just facts!
737