CMR President's Message - Paycuts anyone?

[ATR-DRIVR]

Had not heard of Comair bidding for the 88's, is that just speculation or board chatter? I find it a bit hard to imagine. You're right though, the kids on the street should come first and then we should ALL get together and work on the future of the company.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I don't see why J4J with Captain slots for any NEW aircraft would be a problem - emphasize "New" aircraft. Nobody would lose any current slots and then the Comair/ASA pilots would get all of the added Captain and FO slots as the furloughees are called up to the mainline. For any furloughees who do not have the seniority for Captain positions on NEW aircraft, then they should go to the bottom of the seniority list as FOs. That seems pretty reasonable to me and it is a win-win situation for everyone as Comair/ASA would be adding more new aircraft vs. no real growth at all. Isn't this being applied at both UAL and USAirways?

What part of keeping the seniority system intact is hard to understand? FYI the UAL J4J does not give the furloughees anything other than a flying job and a slot at the bottom of the list. They do get 2nd year pay right off the bat though. The minute you start compromising the seniority system you lose.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Why can't DAL bring future RJ's onto mainline?

Because mainline employees will park, unload, clean, and maintain those aircraft. Remember the "C" or ""D" scale paid to regional employees is spread through all employee groups. It's not just pilot and FA costs.

 

[FDJ2]

Because mainline employees will park, unload, clean, and maintain those aircraft. Remember the "C" or ""D" scale paid to regional employees is spread through all employee groups. It's not just pilot and FA costs.

Not necessarily so. The Song 757s are flown by mainline pilots, but everything else is Song. The same can be done with RJs.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Not necessarily so. The Song 757s are flown by mainline pilots, but everything else is Song. The same can be done with RJs.

I wasn't aware of that. Cut those Song rates in half and it would pretty much be a wash with the regionals. How do they handle MX on Song aircraft? It's hard to imagine a separate group of mechanics working on them.

 

[FDJ2]

I wasn't aware of that. Cut those Song rates in half and it would pretty much be a wash with the regionals. How do they handle MX on Song aircraft? It's hard to imagine a separate group of mechanics working on them.

I suppose they reimburse DAL for any services a DAL mechanic does on a Song aircraft. I believe DCI carriers do the same for certain services from time to time. DAL management must be pleased with the final product and its cosats since they are increasing the Song fleet from 36 to 48 aircraft this year. It's interesting that you would state, "cut those Song rates in half and it would pretty much be a wash with the regionals." What Song rates are you referring too, what are they and how much do the regionals pay for the same job?

 

[Looking4Traffic]

No Concessions

Listen, there will always be disagreement about the issue of concessions and I respect every pilot who's expressed their opinion in this thread.

Here's my opinion and I want you to hear what I'm saying whether you're at Comair, Delta, ASA, Northwest, Pinnacle, Skywest, Mesa, TSA, USAir, Express, Chataq or any other airline . . . whether you're a Republican or Democrat . . . whether you have 200 hours or 20,000 hours . . .

I cannot and will not vote for concessions. And as a two-year pilot at Comair, I have more to gain from concessions than most of you.

The reason I will not agree to concessions is (1) because my value as a professional pilot is more than $38 per hour and (2) because my family cannot afford to live on less than $38 per hour.

Over 250 people entrusted their lives to me and to my >10-year captain today, flying a jet for six legs throughout the Northeast corridor in and out of horrendous weather. We're living in hotels away from our spouses and kids, eating food that we don't want to eat and working 14-15 hours to get paid for seven.

For those of you who reply "if you don't like it, get out", I say "there's no rule that you can't get paid what you're worth just because you like your job."

For those of you who say "it's the law of supply and demand" or a response to the "race to the bottom", I reply that this is the reason that unions were created: to make sure that employees were adequately represented during difficult times when management used the economy and poor debt management as an excuse to undercompensate their workers.

To those of you who are looking to get your PIC time and move on to "bigger and better things", I say "take a look around you". Where are you going?

Look, nobody here has clean hands. I know that it can be argued that my job came at the expense of a Delta pilot who is no longer flying the same route in an MD-80 or 737. I'm just saying that the buck has to stop somewhere and for me, it stops here. At some point the madness has to end and we have to take a stand. CEOs and other executives are the people who make the difficult decisions about the direction the companies should take and then the rest of us labor to implement those decisions. Pilots, flight attendants, ramp agents and ticket agents are the people who keep these airlines running day after day. Don't blame employees if the executives made a wrong decision that cost the company millions (or billions) of dollars; don't give them the golden parachutes and make us take pay cuts.

We should stop blaming each other for the problems that were facing. We're not responsible. We didn't do anything wrong. We're just trying to make a living.

But let's not sell ourselves out any longer. I'm worth more than $38 an hour -- we all are -- and I'm not agreeing to a penny less. If that means that I lose my job or have to sit shotgun for 10 years, then so be it.

At least I'll have my self-respect.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Lookingfortraffic

Awesome post. Agree.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Listen, there will always be disagreement about the issue of concessions and I respect every pilot who's expressed their opinion in this thread.

Here's my opinion and I want you to hear what I'm saying whether you're at Comair, Delta, ASA, Northwest, Pinnacle, Skywest, Mesa, TSA, USAir, Express, Chataq or any other airline . . . whether you're a Republican or Democrat . . . whether you have 200 hours or 20,000 hours . . .

I cannot and will not vote for concessions. And as a two-year pilot at Comair, I have more to gain from concessions than most of you.

The reason I will not agree to concessions is (1) because my value as a professional pilot is more than $38 per hour and (2) because my family cannot afford to live on less than $38 per hour.

Over 250 people entrusted their lives to me and to my >10-year captain today, flying a jet for six legs throughout the Northeast corridor in and out of horrendous weather. We're living in hotels away from our spouses and kids, eating food that we don't want to eat and working 14-15 hours to get paid for seven.

For those of you who reply "if you don't like it, get out", I say "there's no rule that you can't get paid what you're worth just because you like your job."

For those of you who say "it's the law of supply and demand" or a response to the "race to the bottom", I reply that this is the reason that unions were created: to make sure that employees were adequately represented during difficult times when management used the economy and poor debt management as an excuse to undercompensate their workers.

To those of you who are looking to get your PIC time and move on to "bigger and better things", I say "take a look around you". Where are you going?

Look, nobody here has clean hands. I know that it can be argued that my job came at the expense of a Delta pilot who is no longer flying the same route in an MD-80 or 737. I'm just saying that the buck has to stop somewhere and for me, it stops here. At some point the madness has to end and we have to take a stand. CEOs and other executives are the people who make the difficult decisions about the direction the companies should take and then the rest of us labor to implement those decisions. Pilots, flight attendants, ramp agents and ticket agents are the people who keep these airlines running day after day. Don't blame employees if the executives made a wrong decision that cost the company millions (or billions) of dollars; don't give them the golden parachutes and make us take pay cuts.

We should stop blaming each other for the problems that were facing. We're not responsible. We didn't do anything wrong. We're just trying to make a living.

But let's not sell ourselves out any longer. I'm worth more than $38 an hour -- we all are -- and I'm not agreeing to a penny less. If that means that I lose my job or have to sit shotgun for 10 years, then so be it.

At least I'll have my self-respect.

Ditto!

 

[737 Pylt]

well said

But let's not sell ourselves out any longer. I'm worth more than $38 an hour -- we all are -- and I'm not agreeing to a penny less. If that means that I lose my job or have to sit shotgun for 10 years, then so be it.

At least I'll have my self-respect.

It's a great thought, and a nice dream, however, somewhere, someone will always be willing to do your job/ my job for less! Its just facts!
737

 

[49W]

They can have the job then. $38 an hour for pilots equates to less than $19 dollars an hour in real-world jobs where you work and get paid for 40 hours a week. Being that upgrade times at regionals which pay this rate will probably be 6 years or more, people will find better jobs in other industries. There comes a point where it just ain't worth it anymore.

 

[asacap]

Screw it, full pay till the last day!

 

[N2264J]

Re: CMR President's Message...

I cannot and will not vote for concessions.

I agree. With Comair being the 7th cheapest to operate in the seven "large regional" carriers and pulling down tens of millions per quarter in profit at the worst possible time in aviation history, there's no need for concessions here. Delta's financial problem isn't at Comair or ASA, it's at mainline.

We've heard all that management bluff and bluster before and during the strike. Remember? Delta was going to shut down Comair and bring in Mesa if we didn't capitulate on the second settlement offer and the Comair pilots wished them well with that idea and then voted it down. They spent $680,000,000 to keep from paying us $50,000,000 - money they'd probably like to have back right now. (Interestingly enough, at the same time, they negotiated a contract at mainline that virtually guaranteed Delta's eventual spiral toward bankruptcy). I don't care what the corporate stucture is, it is immoral to try to solve this problem on the backs of Comair and ASA pilots. Our MECs should be making that clear.

Voting down the second settlement offer was our finest hour and it looks like we're going to get the opportunity to do it again. I've heard from pilots who came to Comair after the strike to be part of a pilot group whose stand against management they admired and respected. Now, they have the chance to stand with us and say "No" too but I gather a few are still thinking about it. Someone has to set the bar and I say it may as well be us - again.

Placing aircraft at different "contractors" and hub cities is a managment decision but if Comair flies them, this is what it's going to cost. Personally, in these troubled economic times, the rationale of Delta transferring any profit at all to a share holder group that isn't Delta stock holders escapes me. We are Delta Inc. pilots and, by definition, we shouldn't have to bid on Delta flying. (Thanks ALPA!) It's a chump's game and we should collectively refuse to play. Once we buy into a "consessions for growth" sham, it will never end.

 

[surplus1]

I think most of the new growth will be in mainline, with 100 seaters eventually. Those aircraft will most likely go to mainline---and Grinstein pointed out when asked if DCI would eventually fly 100 seaters---he stated, "I can't see them flying it." He may not be around forever, but Dalpa will try to keep their pilots employed.

I would like to see you grow, get your furloughees back, and get some new airplanes. Whatever type of equipment the Company decides to put on your operating certificate you should fly. It is expected that dalpa will try to keep their pilots employed and I don't know anyone who disagrees with that idea. However, you need to keep them employed at Delta, not somewhere else. As soon as you try to keep your people employed by placing them on our list ahead of our people, you have crossed the line.

Some people on this board may think it is "Greedy" for Dalpa to go after some 70 seaters----while those same people think Comair should bid for DL's Md88s or future 100 seaters.

I'm one of the "some people" who thinks dalpa should keep its hands off the 70-seaters. IF the Company decides to operate more of them and they put them on your operating certificate, then you should fly them. If the Company puts more of them on our operating certificate, then we will fly them. Incidentally, both of our current contracts call for exactly that. If some of your people want to accept any vacancies at the entry level I would welcome them. But, if those airplanes are on our certificate do not expect to place any of your people in the captain positions and bypass our people. That's not going to happen.

I'm not one of the "some people" who thinks Comair should "bid" on any airplane that you currently fly. In fact I don't think we should be "bidding" against each other at all. I also don't think we should "bid" on any new 100 seaters, unless you decide to "bid" on new 70-seaters. As soon as you do that and especially if you agree to fly them for less than we do, you will have started a bidding war. If you decide to do that, then you can expect a counter bid.

It's really pretty simple. You are protecting "your" people. We are protecting "our" people. YOU created the fence between us, then you have subsequently relocated the fence to a different position and now you want to relocate it further. Sorry, but that is unacceptable to us. Stay on your side of the fence, which you created and we will stay on our side of the fence. Stop trying to relocate the fence at our expense. When you do those two things we can all live happily ever after. If you decide not to do those things, then expect to live with the consequences of your decisions. Get used to the fact that you do NOT have super rights to anything.

I think we should look at who is on the street first. When everyone is back, then there should be some frank discussions.
Bye Bye--General Lee

YOU should look at who is on the street and how they got there. YOU made the bed. I understand that you don't want to lie in it but that's what happens. Don't expect to solve your problems, which are of your own making, by placing "your" pilots ahead of our pilots on our list. We can have discussions any time you want. Just don't expect the "discussions" to lead to super seniority for your pilots. That's not on the table. That is as "frank" as I can be.

The only thing that might put it on the table is bankruptcy that results in voiding our contract. In that case, your contract will be voided too, the discussions will be with the Company and your guess as to what happens is as good as mine.

Let's hope for the best for everyone. Candidly, "the plan" or at least what we know about it doesn't seem to impress anyone external to the Company. Hopefully that will change.

 

[surplus1]

Once we buy into a "consessions for growth" sham, it will never end.

Well said!