Citationshares lets 30 go

[FR8DOG777]

How's it working for you?
What?
Being clever.

Almost as clever as quoting myself on flightinfo, but not quite as clever as a mom and pops chief pilot or D.O. from Miami chiming in here explaining why 160 of us fractional pilots are unemployed. But hey I got an A in college economics so I will be writing Paul Volcker to let him know what I think we need to do to get the economy back on track. We get it, the industry is in a downward spiral and many of us are suffering the consequences of poor management decisions. Hats off to Citation shares management group who handled this with due respect to the service and longevity of the pilots involved. As for publishers he should stick to what he knows and let us go about our business.

 

[brokeflyer]

who's publishers?


never heard of her

 

[RCR5]

CS is a GREAT company and is trying their best to make this work. Steve is being upfront with us on why and what to expect (as he should) and the lines of communication have been open for ANY and ALL questions.

We will get through this. This has been the most unbelievably good job I have ever had. WE need to stick together CS folks. Hopefully for us all, we will get to continue to work here.

 

[milky]

Ok, so what you are saying (if I understand correctly) is that if management does their job and the company is profitable, they will get a bonus and a raise in March and the company continues to operate.
That must mean if they are not profitable, they are not doing their job then they don't get a bonus or raise in March and the company fails to be a viable entity to the employees, shareholders and passengers.

Now, to continue along that line of thought, as a pilot, if you fly you get paid if the company is profitable or not, because that's not your job (to make the company profitable),you still get paid.

So, if you want to get a bonus and a raise in March and you feel that you should get a chunk of that money, perhaps you should be a manager and not just a pilot. It's a different set of challenges and most pilots don't want to deal with it, (that's why they fly..shhhhh don't tell anybody) and it's just easier to moan and groan about those that are willing to take the responsibility for all of it rather than just one flight at a time.

Hey, you're not allowed to post anything on this site that is not PURELY pro-labor no matter how much it makes sense. Pilots SHALL never lose their jobs despite how it affects the bottom line of their company. Managers and executives SHALL always be bashed for being overpayed if they make anything equal to or greater than $1. Please go turn in your wings wherever you fly because you are obviously not worthy of being a pilot or posting on this board.

I'm not making it up, it's in the user agreement you agreed to when you signed up for this site....

 

[Freedom]

Understanding Bob19....

The reason he has stuck his nose into the Citation Shares Pilots business is that he realizes if Shares goes Union, the balance of power will have shifted for good in the Fractional Industry.

That won't bode well for a Union Buster like Bob19. Once Options is done with him, the only place left for him in the Fractionals will be Flex. And with 3 out of 4 of the major Fractional players gone Union, his percentages of keeping Flex non Union would be remote.

Bob19 is just trying to preserve as much of his potential Union Busting territory as possible.

Don't take it personal guys. We have already established Bob19 to be a Pathological Liar. But unlike political mistakes made in the past, we will not let his political attacks go uncountered.

He will be shot down continually. Kind of makes for a good way to kill time while on standby.

Bob19...Shooting him down. Pure Entertainment.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[Semore Butts]

HAHAHAHA!!!!! Good one Milky, youve made it clear!

Milky:

Pilots SHALL never lose their jobs despite how it affects the bottom line of their company. Managers and executives SHALL always be bashed for being overpayed if they make anything equal to or greater than $1


Semore:

Well if you don't like it quit crying about it and be a pilot! Take B-19 with you, you can be "stick buddies".

May your Christmas be every bit as good as the pilots you have furloughed.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I'am not so junior in age FYI these guy pushing 70 with kids out of college so on and so forth get out of the way so i can put my kid thru college can't get aviation out of blood rent an airplane for christ sake not trying to be an ass but it is what it is let the young bloods make a living they'll all be dead soon anyway LOL if they have not saved enough buy now shame on them i planned on retiring by age 58 thats out the window with the old timers taking up space sorry but that is the way i feel about it

That is the longest run-on sentence I have ever read...

Perhaps he was simply channeling Faulkner?
:laugh:

 

[Publishers]

freight-- if you do not know someones background, you should not comment on it. What I try and do is share some of the 35 years of my aviation experience in the corporate, 135, and 121 fields, all of which I have held senior positions. Many of the posts here take on side and never bother looking at the other side.
My interest in fractional companies in particular is because most of the models have not worked. Other than Netjets, which has a pile symbiotic company relationships, what other frac is really or ever has produced decent profits.
I am a business analysist by nature and profession. Obviously if the models cannot work consistently, the jobs for pilots are going to go away.
As a businessman, I gave up on figuring out the airline business a long time ago. I have owned a number of aircraft, traded about $800m in used airliners, but never had any desire to be a commercial pilot flying for hire.

 

[FR8DOG777]

Well pat yourself on the pack and paste on another gold star

I find it offensive that you are compelled to tell us all what we're doing wrong, yet you don't work at a fractional. You are coming here and rubbing salt in unemployed pilots wounds. It would be easy for me to jump in the majors forum and explain to those pilots what is wrong with the airline industry. We are all scrambling to become more efficient and profitable. Your views too are onesided, frac pilots are not a dime a dozen. We will continue to focus on what we can control as pilots and provide the best service to our customers and hopefully the higher ups will find a way to attract and retain owners. It is easy for you to analize what has gone wrong, but you offer nothing constructive. With that said I retract the namecalling in the previous post.

 

[Publishers]

I never intend to rub salt in an unemployed pilots wounds. If I was trying to make a point to someone who is thinking of a career in fractional flying, I would merely caution. On the one hand, it has created more flying jobs than would have been created in the corporate world, on the other, it just has not been very successful past Netjets and there because they have their hand in the sales pie, the support pie, the training pie, the everything pie.
There are a number of things I think they can do to become more solid. Get out of the card business. Put penalties on owners that are geographically disadvantaged. Do not sell 1/16's or even 1/8ths. Will this reduce revenue and market, yes. Make it more solid yes. The airlines are always in the crapper because there answer for everything is more. Sometimes the answer is less but focused. In the end, it will produce less volatility and more pilot security.

 

[Flex-ible]

There are a number of things I think they can do to become more solid. Get out of the card business. Put penalties on owners that are geographically disadvantaged. Do not sell 1/16's or even 1/8ths. Will this reduce revenue and market, yes. Make it more solid yes.

Ah, I suggest you check with your sales department. I am willing to bet you will find the most likely people to buy shares 1/4 or larger are those who previously owned cards, or smaller shares.

Gotta let them stick their toes in the water to find out just how warm and comfy it is!

 

[CL300Pilot]

Flexjet. Check out the Bombardier annual report and you will find that Flexjet has profitted the past 2 years and this year is even better.

The cards are also beneficial in 2 different ways. One, we get the folks who want to try our services before they buy a share at no capital cost and the second is that the owners who are not flying as much, but still want to be in the program, can not renew their contract but buy the cards instead. It is a very beneficial system for not only the fractionals but the owners or potential owners as well. The only way it is not beneficial to the fracs is if you oversell cards and do not have the core fleet to support them.

Other than Netjets, which has a pile symbiotic company relationships, what other frac is really or ever has produced decent profits.

 

[Publishers]

From a sales view, that is a legitimate point, however, it is also the area that causes all the problems. Just think about it but use one aircraft as an example. We double the number of owners for you to fly. We sell a card to another 5 or 10 to use ramdomly, and, a couple of these people are in Montana, another Arkansas, another in New Mexico, and most of these are going to want the aircraft at the same times of the year. You have to build the cost into the equation. Your problem is when you do, you miss the easy fruit on the tree as you are uncompetitive. The guy who lives in NY and goes back and forth to Florida, he can charter for much less. These are all elements of why the business is so hard. To offer the program nationwide and be aggessive in the sales front, you deadhead all over and end up with a certain percentage of customers who you do not make a dollar on as compared to selling 4 shares on same plane to people who all live in NY and go back and forth to Florida.

 

[brokeflyer]

From a sales view, that is a legitimate point, however, it is also the area that causes all the problems. Just think about it but use one aircraft as an example. We double the number of owners for you to fly. We sell a card to another 5 or 10 to use ramdomly, and, a couple of these people are in Montana, another Arkansas, another in New Mexico, and most of these are going to want the aircraft at the same times of the year. You have to build the cost into the equation. Your problem is when you do, you miss the easy fruit on the tree as you are uncompetitive. The guy who lives in NY and goes back and forth to Florida, he can charter for much less. These are all elements of why the business is so hard. To offer the program nationwide and be aggessive in the sales front, you deadhead all over and end up with a certain percentage of customers who you do not make a dollar on as compared to selling 4 shares on same plane to people who all live in NY and go back and forth to Florida.

that's probly part of the reason other fracs aren't doing very well. We beat that issue many years ago and it's been working so far.

 

[RCA]

that's probly part of the reason other fracs aren't doing very well. We beat that issue many years ago and it's been working so far.

The Kool-Aid I'm drinking says the Big Three Fracs are in the same boat.

 

[172driver]

From a sales view, that is a legitimate point, however, it is also the area that causes all the problems. Just think about it but use one aircraft as an example. We double the number of owners for you to fly. We sell a card to another 5 or 10 to use ramdomly, and, a couple of these people are in Montana, another Arkansas, another in New Mexico, and most of these are going to want the aircraft at the same times of the year. You have to build the cost into the equation. Your problem is when you do, you miss the easy fruit on the tree as you are uncompetitive. The guy who lives in NY and goes back and forth to Florida, he can charter for much less. These are all elements of why the business is so hard. To offer the program nationwide and be aggessive in the sales front, you deadhead all over and end up with a certain percentage of customers who you do not make a dollar on as compared to selling 4 shares on same plane to people who all live in NY and go back and forth to Florida.

If you're only using one plane, that's a legitimate argument. If you have 500 it's a whole different story.

 

[jonjuan]

From a sales view, that is a legitimate point, however, it is also the area that causes all the problems. Just think about it but use one aircraft as an example. We double the number of owners for you to fly. We sell a card to another 5 or 10 to use ramdomly, and, a couple of these people are in Montana, another Arkansas, another in New Mexico, and most of these are going to want the aircraft at the same times of the year. You have to build the cost into the equation. Your problem is when you do, you miss the easy fruit on the tree as you are uncompetitive. The guy who lives in NY and goes back and forth to Florida, he can charter for much less. These are all elements of why the business is so hard. To offer the program nationwide and be aggessive in the sales front, you deadhead all over and end up with a certain percentage of customers who you do not make a dollar on as compared to selling 4 shares on same plane to people who all live in NY and go back and forth to Florida.

Problem with your synopsis is two/or three fold. 1) There are hundreds of flexjet/netjet, etc. owners who live in the NY area and use their shares exclusively to/from so. florida. You say they can Charter for much less. That's correct in theory-problem is they don't, otherwise, there would be very few frac owners in NY. With these folks, the deadhead percentage is way less and makes up for the much smaller number of flights (but greater percentage of deadhead) on flights out West (Spokane to Bozeman). Although these NY owners "pay more" than they should ("their" deadhead is less, they also pay less for fuel than those in other parts of the country. In theory, those out West with a higher deadhead percentage pay the national fuel average which is higher than they should pay.
2) Flexjet smartly smooths out demand across its fleet over the year by selling 25 cards with high demand blackout days. If you want to fly on the highest demand days of the year, you can, but the cost is the highest. For a discount and flexible in travel days, you are restricted from the highest demand days. I believe there are 5 levels of days and costs. This keeps hundreds of card owners from competing with fractional owners on the high travel days while pushing otherwise soft demand to low demand days. Smooths out the spikes in demand which is costly for operations. You reduce charter while not having excess aircraft/aircrews on low demand days.

 

[CL300Pilot]

I understand what you are trying to say, however, you are not comparing apples to apples. With one aircraft, you are correct, the business cannot be viable. With 100 aircraft though, you have the ability to do this so long as you do not oversell your "core" fleet. I beleive this is what Marquis Jet did years ago and have since fixed their problem.

Another reason why the cards are selling as good as they are and that they are a win win for everyone is that most of our owners do not want to be chartered. They like knowing that a Flexjet aircraft and crew will be taking them where they want to go. I would be willing to bet that the others have owners with the same desires as well. The folks who buy into cards and fractionals dont' care as much about the bottom line as they do about service. If it was about money, they would fly the airlines.

From a sales view, that is a legitimate point, however, it is also the area that causes all the problems. Just think about it but use one aircraft as an example. We double the number of owners for you to fly. We sell a card to another 5 or 10 to use ramdomly, and, a couple of these people are in Montana, another Arkansas, another in New Mexico, and most of these are going to want the aircraft at the same times of the year. You have to build the cost into the equation. Your problem is when you do, you miss the easy fruit on the tree as you are uncompetitive. The guy who lives in NY and goes back and forth to Florida, he can charter for much less. These are all elements of why the business is so hard. To offer the program nationwide and be aggessive in the sales front, you deadhead all over and end up with a certain percentage of customers who you do not make a dollar on as compared to selling 4 shares on same plane to people who all live in NY and go back and forth to Florida.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I find it offensive that you are compelled to tell us all what we're doing wrong, yet you don't work at a fractional. You are coming here and rubbing salt in unemployed pilots wounds. It would be easy for me to jump in the majors forum and explain to those pilots what is wrong with the airline industry. We are all scrambling to become more efficient and profitable. Your views too are onesided, frac pilots are not a dime a dozen. We will continue to focus on what we can control as pilots and provide the best service to our customers and hopefully the higher ups will find a way to attract and retain owners. It is easy for you to analize what has gone wrong, but you offer nothing constructive. With that said I retract the namecalling in the previous post.

No, they are not one-sided. They, like mine, are from a point of view that you don't understand because you haven't walked on the management side of the fence. All of the posters in here that fly and don't manage can't imagine how hard it is to balance the needs of the customer and the bottom line while making sure the operation is safe.

 

[Publishers]

There is no question that as things have gone along, some of the issues with cards have been changed, but the number if aircraft in the equation is not really the factor. It relates more to deadhead hours, aircraft utilization against residual value of share or aircraft value at end or disposal, type of aircraft, etc.. Flex has done a pretty good job as has Citation shares, but again like Netjets, there is an undefined symbiotic relationship in their case with the manufacturer. Avantair tries to be like that as pretty much the sole Piaggio user. Nevertheless, on their own, none of have been consistently profitable.
To give you some idea of impact, at MIA 40% of the general aviation traffic is Frac. Netjets is 80% of that. Flex is next with near 10% and then the rest are divided equally.
Ironically in a down economy, the flights are way down but the percentages are the same.