CHQ new Delta jets?

[NYRANGERS]

Re: Re: Beautiful Irony

NY Rangers, you completely misunderstand the issues. The RJDC litigation is the result of ASA and Comair being locked out of bargaining by ALPA. Comair and ASA does not have scope because ALPA would not allow us to negotiate with Delta because of the objections of the Delta MEC.

Now ALPA is finally starting to realize the RJDC is correct on this point. A couple of weeks ago Duane Woerth was in CVG telling Comair pilots that in exchange for concessions the union would require that Delta be a signatory to the scope section of the Comair contract.

You and the others who parrot the ALPA line and add in the more radical political spin need to update your information - because your union is beginning to spin issues a lot like the RJDC.

Hey if ALPA finally comes around to actually lead us into a "brand scope" or "inclusive scope" I don't care who's idea it was. It is not a matter of who is right, but rather, what is right.

~~~^~~~

I understand the situation completly, thank you. Up until very recently, the comair mec and rjdc have tried not to step on each other too much. Now it seems the mec (cmr) is distancing itself from the the rjdc. The comair mec is smelling a loser in the rjdc and is now trying to open constructive dialog with our (Delta) MEC.

I don't care for the J4J idea. I would be happy with the opportunity to work for one of our DCI carriers (at the bottom of the seniority list) w/o resigning my number. I know some of you ASA guys and most of the comair guys don't like the idea.

All I am trying to say is.......with regards to the interest of furloughed pilots (of all airlines). We would incourage new aircraft to go to airlines with pilots that are willing to fly with us (us being just like any new hire) and not to a group whose mec does not care for the idea.

If Chautauqua gets all of "your"(cmr, I know you fly for ASA) new growth aircraft.................I don't yet see a problem with that. I would rather see the aircraft go to ASA, but CHA will hire furloughed pilots as well.(with out cmr restrictions).

I am sure there are many furloughed pilots (of all airlines) that welcome the opportunity to fly and support their families doing what they are best at.

NYR

 

[bailout]

>>Might want to check your sources. Look for a BIG increase in DFW. Sorry.<<


On the DCI side? or with someone else? This was given to us in print, basically saying that ASA will be picking up alot more of the flying in DFW due to CHQ and SKW reducing their presence in DFW.

 

[FDJ2]

Two and a half weeks ago, Duane Woerthe told us at the Comair meeting, according to my notes, "You are only here because you are cheaper than Delta (pilots)."

Yesterday, FDJ2 said, "... the only reason you fly a single hour of the DAL code is because you are willing to do it for less than a mainline pilot."

I am mortified, I mean gratified the president of my Union holds me in such high regard.

He just doesn't want you to be anymore dillusional than you need to be. The facts hurt, but they are the facts. Without any meaningful scope over the 70 seat and under category the flying goes to the lowest bidder. Management never offered the RJ flying to the mainline because the costs were too high, so the CMR pilots scooped it up, but now there are literally thousands of pilots willing to do it for even less than you. If their overall costs are less than CMR, you can bet your paycheck that they'll get the flying. That's life without scope and that's the world that so many CMR pilots yearn for by supporting the RJDC and their attack on the longstanding scope of ALPA pilots. It's just ironic, that the pilot group that is most vocal about abrogating the scope protections of others, may be the first to suffer from their own lack of scope.

 

[FDJ2]

ONCE AGAIN. The Delta pilots NEVER negotiated a pay scale for the CL-65. NEVER. So you too are incorrect when you make this statement.
Why do you guys keep saying this when you know it is wrong?

Like the DEMS? If you say a lie enough times, it becomes the truth ?

You are truly ignorant of how pay rates are negotiated. The DMEC does not proffer a wage on a non existing airframes on the mainline. Once management purchases an airframe for the mainline than negotiations on pay and work rules begin. FYI, we don't have wages on the A380, B747, A320 etc., etc.

If you still want to live in lala land and believe for a second that the reason DAL outsourced 100% of the RJ flying had nothing to do with the cheaper costs associated with the CMR pilots v. the mainline than have at it, but you are not only wrong, but intentionally disingenuous.

 

[trainerjet]

You are truly ignorant

Yep. That pretty much sums it up. The most ignorant, stupid poster on this entire board.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

AND...

what you people obviously don't understand, or simply cannot comprehend, is we don't give a crap where they put those airplanes now. We will not whore ourselves out just to get more flying, as so many have done.

We fought hard for our contract, and will not stand by and see our contract gutted when Comair financials show no need for concessions.

I don't know why this is so hard for you people to comprehend.

 

[NYRANGERS]

AND...

what you people obviously don't understand, or simply cannot comprehend, is we don't give a crap where they put those airplanes now. We will not whore ourselves out just to get more flying, as so many have done.


I don't know why this is so hard for you people to comprehend.

What you are really saying is..............you won't whore yourselves out for more flying in airplanes you already have...........you will whore yourselves to fly Delta 737's etc. etc.

You rjdc A-holes don't want pressure on your pay scale's but you're more than happy to put pressure on other companies larger ones.

It's all one big mess. Cmr mec doesn't want Delta pilots on their property and rjdc is trying to destroy scope language for ALL airlines (unless they can get ALPA to settle out of court for $$$$$$$$, or get DOH with Delta or some other BS.). You talk big about upholding the profession and then join a lawsuit built to destroy it.

You guys suck.

 

[Stick Man]

i can comprehend just fine thanks...

AFELLOW WROTE:

AND...

what you people obviously don't understand, or simply cannot comprehend, is we don't give a crap where they put those airplanes now. We will not whore ourselves out just to get more flying, as so many have done.

We fought hard for our contract, and will not stand by and see our contract gutted when Comair financials show no need for concessions.

I don't know why this is so hard for you people to comprehend.


__________________
Afellowaviator


Well AFELL, you have just admitted your inability to actually understand what your amazing contract did at Comair. You set your self up for future contract reneg.'s (or guttings as I believe you put it) due to the fact that 7% above is just that - 7% ABOVE! (on the average - of course). Your ignorance to the fact that you dont care where aircraft are placed shows how little you know about the economy and a rising fair market principle. We haven't even completed the 8th full fiscal quarter since 9/11 and you think that you'll never need to give into some concessions based on Comairs current finances.

Well, you better hope that not much changes in the order of next November. You better be on your knees everynight before you start, continue on or complete your 5 day trips at CMR, praying that the market continues to perform like it has over the past 8 mos. If the economy has a hiccup, another 9/11 happens or if Bedford and Orenstein have more opprtunities to buy more, place more shiny new ones or gain even more market recognition, then there's a patch of ground in Northern KY that will slow down - maybe just a lil - but slow down nonetheless. And while you may still be sitting pretty in the left seat - you can't argue with the fact that you're company passes on difficulties to its employees. Every company does it and you better prepare yourself.

In closing (this long winded response), congrats on an awesome contract at CMR. You make a lot more dough than I do. However - the difference between a lot more dough and a little more dough is minimal until you make 150K a year by the way. In fact - a 5th year CA at any regional is still in the same tax bracket as any other 5th yr CA at a similar regional (or national - flying regional equipment for that matter). Me - I'll take my company's long term financial health and be happy with that. Don't be happy with the money you make - make money with the money you make - you'll be happy then.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: i can comprehend just fine thanks...

AFELLOW WROTE:

AND...

what you people obviously don't understand, or simply cannot comprehend, is we don't give a crap where they put those airplanes now. We will not whore ourselves out just to get more flying, as so many have done.

We fought hard for our contract, and will not stand by and see our contract gutted when Comair financials show no need for concessions.

I don't know why this is so hard for you people to comprehend.


__________________
Afellowaviator


Well AFELL, you have just admitted your inability to actually understand

Inablility to actually understand.....sounds alot like a definition of stupid.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Re: i can comprehend just fine thanks...

AFELLOW WROTE:

AND...

what you people obviously don't understand, or simply cannot comprehend, is we don't give a crap where they put those airplanes now. We will not whore ourselves out just to get more flying, as so many have done.

We fought hard for our contract, and will not stand by and see our contract gutted when Comair financials show no need for concessions.

I don't know why this is so hard for you people to comprehend.


__________________
Afellowaviator


Well AFELL, you have just admitted your inability to actually understand what your amazing contract did at Comair. You set your self up for future contract reneg.'s (or guttings as I believe you put it) due to the fact that 7% above is just that - 7% ABOVE! (on the average - of course). Your ignorance to the fact that you dont care where aircraft are placed shows how little you know about the economy and a rising fair market principle. We haven't even completed the 8th full fiscal quarter since 9/11 and you think that you'll never need to give into some concessions based on Comairs current finances.

Well, you better hope that not much changes in the order of next November. You better be on your knees everynight before you start, continue on or complete your 5 day trips at CMR, praying that the market continues to perform like it has over the past 8 mos. If the economy has a hiccup, another 9/11 happens or if Bedford and Orenstein have more opprtunities to buy more, place more shiny new ones or gain even more market recognition, then there's a patch of ground in Northern KY that will slow down - maybe just a lil - but slow down nonetheless. And while you may still be sitting pretty in the left seat - you can't argue with the fact that you're company passes on difficulties to its employees. Every company does it and you better prepare yourself.

In closing (this long winded response), congrats on an awesome contract at CMR. You make a lot more dough than I do. However - the difference between a lot more dough and a little more dough is minimal until you make 150K a year by the way. In fact - a 5th year CA at any regional is still in the same tax bracket as any other 5th yr CA at a similar regional (or national - flying regional equipment for that matter). Me - I'll take my company's long term financial health and be happy with that. Don't be happy with the money you make - make money with the money you make - you'll be happy then.

Unreal. That one word just about sums up your post. You sir, don't get it and never will. Unreal.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

What you are really saying is..............you won't whore yourselves out for more flying in airplanes you already have...........you will whore yourselves to fly Delta 737's etc. etc.

You rjdc A-holes don't want pressure on your pay scale's but you're more than happy to put pressure on other companies larger ones.

It's all one big mess. Cmr mec doesn't want Delta pilots on their property and rjdc is trying to destroy scope language for ALL airlines (unless they can get ALPA to settle out of court for $$$$$$$$, or get DOH with Delta or some other BS.). You talk big about upholding the profession and then join a lawsuit built to destroy it.

You guys suck.

What ever.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Re: Re: i can comprehend just fine thanks...

Inablility to actually understand.....sounds alot like a definition of stupid.

Uh. What?

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

You are truly ignorant of how pay rates are negotiated. The DMEC does not proffer a wage on a non existing airframes on the mainline. Once management purchases an airframe for the mainline than negotiations on pay and work rules begin. FYI, we don't have wages on the A380, B747, A320 etc., etc.

If you still want to live in lala land and believe for a second that the reason DAL outsourced 100% of the RJ flying had nothing to do with the cheaper costs associated with the CMR pilots v. the mainline than have at it, but you are not only wrong, but intentionally disingenuous.

YOU said we are willing to fly them for less. That would mean we will fly them for x amount, and you would fly them for x amount. And our X amount is less than your X amount. I was just responding to your assertion with facts, and you were unable to respond to mine with facts. How do you know our rates are lower until you negotiate a rate??????

 

[Stick Man]

amazing

What's amazing is that it took u three posts to reply with the comebacks of:

1. Unreal

2. Uh What?

3. Whatever

You must have helped CMR's negotiating comittee when they negotiated their contract. Thanks for coming back with a 5 sentence response and doing yourself justice.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: Re: Re: i can comprehend just fine thanks...

Uh. What?

Exactly. Every time you post, your ignorance and stupidity rule. Why do you continue to embarrass yourself and your company?

 

[surplus1]

Give it a rest. Stick to your guns and take no concessions and watch your flying disappear.

think it over

OK, I'm thinking. What would you suggest we do?

Should we perhaps offter to fly for less than Mesa so that we can grow?

Should we tell the Company that we will undercut the pay of CHQ by 20%, if they just give us back our MCO base?

Should we tell our brother at ASA that they should stop negotiating beacuse we intend to keep our flying and try to get theirs, and we are going to do it for less than they do now?

Maybe we should tell Delta that we will fly 737s and MD88's for 50% of the Delta pilots' rate if they'll just give us those planes?

What should we do to stop our flying from disappearing? I'm sure we'd like to hear your ideas.

 

[FDJ2]

YOU said we are willing to fly them for less.

You do, you know it, it's a fact. Your inability to come to grips with that reality is irrelevant. The only reason mainline pilots don't fly RJs at DAL is the ability of management to outsource the flying to cheaper labor. That's you, at least that use to be you. Now there is even cheaper labor to be had, and there is your problem. After years of growth due to your willingness to do it for less, you now need to compete against a new crop of young aviators who are willing to do it for even less than you. Since you have zero scope over a single hour, you'll have to either give up some concessions, or watch your carrier get ever smaller. Perhaps you don't care about the displacements and furloughs that will inevitably occur. Perhaps you are senior enough to weather the storm, but many CMR pilots will suffer due to your lack of scope and your lack of any meaningful change of control or successorship language prior to your acquisition. Denying this reality will not serve you well in the long run. But like I've said before, it is truly ironic that the pilot group that is the most vocal in its attempt to circumvent the negotiated scope clauses of others, will be the first to suffer from their a lack of any meaningful scope whatsoever. Classic.

 

[FDJ2]

What should we do to stop our flying from disappearing? I'm sure we'd like to hear your ideas.

The first step in any "recovery" is to admit that you have a problem. The second step is to be big enough to seek help from those who can truly give it.

What the CMR pilots lack is scope, supporting an effort to abolish what scope there is is counter productive. It's like an alcoholic who tries to quit by drinking more. It aint going to work.

What the CMR pilots need, is what the DAL pilots have, scope over all DL code flying. The only way to get it is to ask the DAL pilots for help with your problem. That help may come with a price tag, but the alternative is much worse.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

so if it is asked, what would the help be? what would be the 'price'?
it seems to me that if all DL flying WAS done by DAL/ASA/CMR, ALL of your furloughs would be back and more airframes would be had by all 3.

 

[Skull-One]

As far as the other kids on this thread. We worked hard to raise the bar, and pilot groups like CHQ and MESA and SKYW. have done nothing but race the other direction since then.

Boy what a stupid comment. CHQ improved its contract in every area and you call that a race to the bottom! Where did you go to elementary school, man? Sheesh.

 

[TWAER]

Does someone hear a horse? Oh crap, we have beaten it to death.

 

[stillaboo]

It has got to a point now that we are having to step up one more time, and most likely make sacrifices to hold on to what we have.

Uh, if you make sacrafices, you can't "hold on to what [you] have", b/c you just gave up some of it.

As far as the other kids on this thread. We worked hard to raise the bar, and pilot groups like CHQ and MESA and SKYW. have done nothing but race the other direction since then. . .

If we followed your leads, we would put our tales between our legs and take concessions so WE can continue to get "new shiny jets".

2 of those companies you named did not take concessions.

 

[FDJ2]

so if it is asked, what would the help be? what would be the 'price'?
it seems to me that if all DL flying WAS done by DAL/ASA/CMR, ALL of your furloughs would be back and more airframes would be had by all 3.

Hey, if all the flying were done by DAL pilots there would be no need for ASA/CMR et al. But that's just not the way it is, so we have to play the cards we have, not what we wish we had. One answer is certain, supporting an action to abrogate the only scope on the property is a recipe for failure.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

fdj2
'the second step is to seek help from those who can 'truly' give it.'...okay.
next it was 'hey if all the flying was done by DAL there would be no need for ASA/CMR.' trying to figure that out...
As i stated before, if ALL the DL flying was done by DAL/ASA/CMR, NOT by anyone else would it not be of much more benefit to us 3?

 

[Russ]

Fellow aviator
Did you pay for your job?

 

[Wacopilot]

RJ

FDJ2,

The only reason mainline pilots don't fly RJs at DAL is the ability of management to outsource the flying to cheaper labor.

Hey man, the main reason that CMR has the RJ is COMAIR developed the RJ. Yea, haha....fun stuff. Yea amazing isn't it, the Comair people developed (w/bombardier) the CL65. If CMR hadn't thought up the concept, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Delta pilots didn't understand the effect of the rj as demonstrated by their scope now. So get your facts strait. CMR has the rj because CMR built the RJ. That is a fact. And we are cheaper, and better than everyone else.. bla bla bla. Oh and what was the last qtr profit report?.?. 34mil+...yea, that is a reason also.


Waco

 

[Saluki Dawg]

Just because you guys at CHQ and SKW didn't take concessions as a part of your new contracts, does not mean that you did anything to stop the race to the bottom. Unless you got at least Comair + 1% MINIMUM, then you didn't do your part to help this industry as a whole. That is the point that my fellow aviators at Comair and ASA are saying. This is what XJT will do on our next contract, and we expect ASA to get even more than us on their next contract. That is the whole idea of negotiating a new contract, to bring up not just your own airline's compensation and work rules, but the entire industry as a whole. Kudos to the Comair and ASA pilots for actually getting it!

 

[surplus1]

What the CMR pilots need, is what the DAL pilots have, scope over all DL code flying. The only way to get it is to ask the DAL pilots for help with your problem. That help may come with a price tag, but the alternative is much worse.

Since you say that Delta pilots have scope over ALL DL CODE FLYING, and what we need is scope over our flying, what will happen when we ask you for "help with our problem"? Does that mean you will give up some of your scope so that we can get scope over the same flying that you claim is yours?

That's sounds a lot like the "preferential hiring" your MEC Chairman offered, i.e., impossible. Your solution appears to be somewhat of an oxymoron, or am I missing something?

What alternative is much worse? What is the price tag and what would we be buying for that price?

Sorry if I'm slow but I miss the logic in your remarks.

 

[surplus1]

2 of those companies you named did not take concessions.

And which 2 would that be? For my money, 1 did not take concessions and that 1 is Chautauqua.

 

[Russ]

Surplus
The waters really get muddied when earlier sins are accounted for, like buying a job at Comair. No aimed at you, simply an observation.