CHQ new Delta jets?

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

GEE. I never knew the DMEC negotiated any rates for the CL-65! I guess I missed that one.

Why do you think the mainline has zero RJs, is it because

A. The mainline will do it for less

or

B. The CMR pilots were willing to do it for less than the mainline.

It's just the pot calling the kettle black when you complain about others giving up their services on the cheap.

ONCE AGAIN. The Delta pilots NEVER negotiated a pay scale for the CL-65. NEVER. So you too are incorrect when you make this statement.
Why do you guys keep saying this when you know it is wrong?

Like the DEMS? If you say a lie enough times, it becomes the truth ?

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Re: a lil help for my boy...

Comair

More $, Less Flying to come, Not a lot of shiny planes, horrible training dept., scheduling dept from hell (not to mention a hellhole like CVG as a base), Mother D in ATL getting her two UGLY daughters ready for the ball



You are either just makeing this up or are extremely ill informed. None of the above statement is true.


CHQ (one of the only, if not the only airline to turn a profit in the first financial quarter post 9/11 in part, due to firm fuel price negotiations - smart huh!)

More $, more flying, many new shiny planes - in fact the only operator that has been taking a/c steadily for the last year, great people to work for (ok the religious dude - B.B. takes some getting used too but so does J.O.), a bunch of bases to basically choose from, and a decently understanding scheduling dept.


OK, more jets to be whored out to the pilots. So what if the pay and work rules ARE FAR BELOW WHERE THEY SHOULD BE. You do sound like mgt.



[/B]

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Rangers,

I have a suggestion for you. Get your MEC to create a Jets for Jobs program at Chautauqua for furloughed Delta pilots.

Then you and your friends can have all the captain seats in their shiny new aircraft. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to have you take those seats along with their seniority. If USAirways can do it why can't you? With a little effort you should be able to get 100% of the new seats, rather than the mere 50% that will go to the USAirways side. With you all and Airways coming in at the top and the UAL guys coming in at the bottom, (as soon as they land that big growth UAL contract) you all can have a real cluster (__) over there. There aren't too many CHQ guys right now so you all should have them outnumbered in short order.

When that's done you can then have your MEC make the same deal with SKYW and experience the thrill of the 70-seaters that will probably go from Comair to them. You will then have the opportunity to fly them for less than Comair for the foreseable future. You'll be welcome there too, with open arms.

Since CHQ is not represented by ALPA, neither you nor ALPA will have to worry about another lawsuit from them. Since SKYW is not represented at all, that should be a cake walk.

Between them you should be able to place all of your furloughees in captain positions, especially if you get your MEC to increase the ratios so that they can grow for your benefit rather than their own.

While you're at it, be sure to offer them some preferential hiring so that when you are eventually recalled to Delta they can all have the opportunity to follow you there for wages that match American and United. Perhaps it will take 10 years, but what does that matter? They're all young and won't mind waiting for the chance to move up from perpetual regional FO to permanent mainline FO, where the boot licking can continue.

If that doesn't please you, there is yet another option. Tell your MEC to reduce Delta wages by 50%, eliminate your work rules, and covert your A plan to a cash plan. That should allow you to "buy growth" at the mainline and is likely to get you all recalled in only a year or so. I'm sure your senior Delta brothers will be more than happy to do that for you guys. They all secretly care for you almost as much as the General truly and openly does.

Since no one in the Delta pilot group has ever had any interest it any planes going to Comair, let alone more planes, we've grown accustomed to that. Your information is old and we already know that you don't love us and that "you don't bring us flowers any more." Honest, it's about all we can do to hold back the tears over that. Tell us something that we don't know, please.

Go get em . With all those furloughs, one must ask why this has not happened yet???? CHQ. and SKYW would be great canditates for a great big J4J program for Delta. They have already shown they have no back bone for a fight, they would role over at the first mention of getting less "shiny new jets" . LOL

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: Beautiful Irony

Kinda like how we feel about you trying to get rid of our scope protection and lower wages. You should be so proud. You get what you negotiate.

How is what you are trying to do any different from what you are complaining about? Chatauqua is not suing my union, I don't see a problem with them getting more jets as long as it does not violate our scope clause..........you know, the one you are trying to get rid of. Don't look for much support in our up comming negotiations.

NY Rangers, you completely misunderstand the issues. The RJDC litigation is the result of ASA and Comair being locked out of bargaining by ALPA. Comair and ASA does not have scope because ALPA would not allow us to negotiate with Delta because of the objections of the Delta MEC.

Now ALPA is finally starting to realize the RJDC is correct on this point. A couple of weeks ago Duane Woerth was in CVG telling Comair pilots that in exchange for concessions the union would require that Delta be a signatory to the scope section of the Comair contract.

You and the others who parrot the ALPA line and add in the more radical political spin need to update your information - because your union is beginning to spin issues a lot like the RJDC.

Hey if ALPA finally comes around to actually lead us into a "brand scope" or "inclusive scope" I don't care who's idea it was. It is not a matter of who is right, but rather, what is right.

~~~^~~~

 

[trainerjet]

Go get em . With all those furloughs, one must ask why this has not happened yet???? CHQ. and SKYW would be great canditates for a great big J4J program for Delta. They have already shown they have no back bone for a fight, they would role over at the first mention of getting less "shiny new jets" . LOL

Idiot.

 

[OldManPilot]

It seams that Commair Pilots are too busy congradulating themselves over their contract. They should open their eyes and realize they are losing business right an left because of their wonderful contract. It is good, but it has and will continue to cost you!!!!

We are all a bit tired of the check pounding.


Give it a rest. Stick to your guns and take no concessions and watch your flying disappear.

think it over

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

We have pilots like you with that attitude to thank for being in the position we are in. I swear, I cannot beleive so many pilots have helped themselves to so much company koolaid.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Idiot.

Now I'm hurt. Maybe I was wrong. WOW, that was brutal.

 

[kepjet]

Quote:
As far as the other kids on this thread. We worked hard to raise the bar, and pilot groups like CHQ and MESA and SKYW. have done nothing but race the other direction since then. It has got to a point now that we are having to step up one more time, and most likely make sacrifices to hold on to what we have.

If we followed your leads, we would put our tales between our legs and take concessions so WE can continue to get "new shiny jets". But our pilot group has some thing others lack. Pride and dignity.


__________________
Afellowaviator



Mr. Aviator,

Do you seriously believe you would have your "great" contract if you had to negotiate after 9/11? I have many friends who work under that "great" contract with junior manning and having days off taken from them at the last moment. Do you think you got everything you wanted? Even Mr. Stasik said CMR pilots didn't get everything they wanted, but it met the "basic needs of the pilot group". Our "basic needs" were more than money. We needed to stop an alter-ego from happening. According to our negotiating people, everytime we asked for more money, the Republic issue would come up again.

Were you one of the many on this board who felt Republic must be stopped at any cost? Well, for all intents and purposes, Republic does not exist and if it ever does, it will have CHQ pilots flying the aircraft. I'd say the issue is resolved, wouldn't you?

Did it cost us money? You bet! Did it cost you money? No, but it could have. I'm sure "Regional Randy" was licking his chops in anticipation of starting the same crap with you guys, and to a point he already has. You and I both know what kind of man Mr. Feeder-macher is. This is the same man who, prior to DL purchasing you, was petioning the Dept. of Transportation for major airline status and then a year and a half later calling Comair a "feeder" airline.

Our new labor agreement is not perfect, but it is the first post 9/11 contract which is not concessionary. We got more pay, better medical, more defined work rules, NO JUNIOR MANNING, etc. I would have loved to have a contract with your payscales, but I'm not willing to get it if it means I have a chance to be junior manned or having some of my days off taken away from me at the last minute.

To suggest that our contract is a step backwards, I would like to ask you: From who's perspective? For us it was a step forward. Probably not as large as we wanted, but still a step forward. As for sending a message to management about starting up alter egos, I think they received that message loud and clear.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Two and a half weeks ago, Duane Woerth told us at the Comair meeting, according the notes that I took,"You are only here because you are cheaper that Delta (pilots)."

FDJ2 said, "the only reason you fly a single hour of the DAL code is because you are willing to do it for less than a mainline pilot."

I am mortified, I mean gratified that the president of my Union holds me in such high regards.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: Re: Beautiful Irony

NY Rangers, you completely misunderstand the issues. The RJDC litigation is the result of ASA and Comair being locked out of bargaining by ALPA. Comair and ASA does not have scope because ALPA would not allow us to negotiate with Delta because of the objections of the Delta MEC.

Now ALPA is finally starting to realize the RJDC is correct on this point. A couple of weeks ago Duane Woerth was in CVG telling Comair pilots that in exchange for concessions the union would require that Delta be a signatory to the scope section of the Comair contract.

You and the others who parrot the ALPA line and add in the more radical political spin need to update your information - because your union is beginning to spin issues a lot like the RJDC.

Hey if ALPA finally comes around to actually lead us into a "brand scope" or "inclusive scope" I don't care who's idea it was. It is not a matter of who is right, but rather, what is right.

~~~^~~~

I understand the situation completly, thank you. Up until very recently, the comair mec and rjdc have tried not to step on each other too much. Now it seems the mec (cmr) is distancing itself from the the rjdc. The comair mec is smelling a loser in the rjdc and is now trying to open constructive dialog with our (Delta) MEC.

I don't care for the J4J idea. I would be happy with the opportunity to work for one of our DCI carriers (at the bottom of the seniority list) w/o resigning my number. I know some of you ASA guys and most of the comair guys don't like the idea.

All I am trying to say is.......with regards to the interest of furloughed pilots (of all airlines). We would incourage new aircraft to go to airlines with pilots that are willing to fly with us (us being just like any new hire) and not to a group whose mec does not care for the idea.

If Chautauqua gets all of "your"(cmr, I know you fly for ASA) new growth aircraft.................I don't yet see a problem with that. I would rather see the aircraft go to ASA, but CHA will hire furloughed pilots as well.(with out cmr restrictions).

I am sure there are many furloughed pilots (of all airlines) that welcome the opportunity to fly and support their families doing what they are best at.

NYR

 

[bailout]

>>Might want to check your sources. Look for a BIG increase in DFW. Sorry.<<


On the DCI side? or with someone else? This was given to us in print, basically saying that ASA will be picking up alot more of the flying in DFW due to CHQ and SKW reducing their presence in DFW.

 

[FDJ2]

Two and a half weeks ago, Duane Woerthe told us at the Comair meeting, according to my notes, "You are only here because you are cheaper than Delta (pilots)."

Yesterday, FDJ2 said, "... the only reason you fly a single hour of the DAL code is because you are willing to do it for less than a mainline pilot."

I am mortified, I mean gratified the president of my Union holds me in such high regard.

He just doesn't want you to be anymore dillusional than you need to be. The facts hurt, but they are the facts. Without any meaningful scope over the 70 seat and under category the flying goes to the lowest bidder. Management never offered the RJ flying to the mainline because the costs were too high, so the CMR pilots scooped it up, but now there are literally thousands of pilots willing to do it for even less than you. If their overall costs are less than CMR, you can bet your paycheck that they'll get the flying. That's life without scope and that's the world that so many CMR pilots yearn for by supporting the RJDC and their attack on the longstanding scope of ALPA pilots. It's just ironic, that the pilot group that is most vocal about abrogating the scope protections of others, may be the first to suffer from their own lack of scope.

 

[FDJ2]

ONCE AGAIN. The Delta pilots NEVER negotiated a pay scale for the CL-65. NEVER. So you too are incorrect when you make this statement.
Why do you guys keep saying this when you know it is wrong?

Like the DEMS? If you say a lie enough times, it becomes the truth ?

You are truly ignorant of how pay rates are negotiated. The DMEC does not proffer a wage on a non existing airframes on the mainline. Once management purchases an airframe for the mainline than negotiations on pay and work rules begin. FYI, we don't have wages on the A380, B747, A320 etc., etc.

If you still want to live in lala land and believe for a second that the reason DAL outsourced 100% of the RJ flying had nothing to do with the cheaper costs associated with the CMR pilots v. the mainline than have at it, but you are not only wrong, but intentionally disingenuous.

 

[trainerjet]

You are truly ignorant

Yep. That pretty much sums it up. The most ignorant, stupid poster on this entire board.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

AND...

what you people obviously don't understand, or simply cannot comprehend, is we don't give a crap where they put those airplanes now. We will not whore ourselves out just to get more flying, as so many have done.

We fought hard for our contract, and will not stand by and see our contract gutted when Comair financials show no need for concessions.

I don't know why this is so hard for you people to comprehend.

 

[NYRANGERS]

AND...

what you people obviously don't understand, or simply cannot comprehend, is we don't give a crap where they put those airplanes now. We will not whore ourselves out just to get more flying, as so many have done.


I don't know why this is so hard for you people to comprehend.

What you are really saying is..............you won't whore yourselves out for more flying in airplanes you already have...........you will whore yourselves to fly Delta 737's etc. etc.

You rjdc A-holes don't want pressure on your pay scale's but you're more than happy to put pressure on other companies larger ones.

It's all one big mess. Cmr mec doesn't want Delta pilots on their property and rjdc is trying to destroy scope language for ALL airlines (unless they can get ALPA to settle out of court for $$$$$$$$, or get DOH with Delta or some other BS.). You talk big about upholding the profession and then join a lawsuit built to destroy it.

You guys suck.

 

[Stick Man]

i can comprehend just fine thanks...

AFELLOW WROTE:

AND...

what you people obviously don't understand, or simply cannot comprehend, is we don't give a crap where they put those airplanes now. We will not whore ourselves out just to get more flying, as so many have done.

We fought hard for our contract, and will not stand by and see our contract gutted when Comair financials show no need for concessions.

I don't know why this is so hard for you people to comprehend.


__________________
Afellowaviator


Well AFELL, you have just admitted your inability to actually understand what your amazing contract did at Comair. You set your self up for future contract reneg.'s (or guttings as I believe you put it) due to the fact that 7% above is just that - 7% ABOVE! (on the average - of course). Your ignorance to the fact that you dont care where aircraft are placed shows how little you know about the economy and a rising fair market principle. We haven't even completed the 8th full fiscal quarter since 9/11 and you think that you'll never need to give into some concessions based on Comairs current finances.

Well, you better hope that not much changes in the order of next November. You better be on your knees everynight before you start, continue on or complete your 5 day trips at CMR, praying that the market continues to perform like it has over the past 8 mos. If the economy has a hiccup, another 9/11 happens or if Bedford and Orenstein have more opprtunities to buy more, place more shiny new ones or gain even more market recognition, then there's a patch of ground in Northern KY that will slow down - maybe just a lil - but slow down nonetheless. And while you may still be sitting pretty in the left seat - you can't argue with the fact that you're company passes on difficulties to its employees. Every company does it and you better prepare yourself.

In closing (this long winded response), congrats on an awesome contract at CMR. You make a lot more dough than I do. However - the difference between a lot more dough and a little more dough is minimal until you make 150K a year by the way. In fact - a 5th year CA at any regional is still in the same tax bracket as any other 5th yr CA at a similar regional (or national - flying regional equipment for that matter). Me - I'll take my company's long term financial health and be happy with that. Don't be happy with the money you make - make money with the money you make - you'll be happy then.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: i can comprehend just fine thanks...

AFELLOW WROTE:

AND...

what you people obviously don't understand, or simply cannot comprehend, is we don't give a crap where they put those airplanes now. We will not whore ourselves out just to get more flying, as so many have done.

We fought hard for our contract, and will not stand by and see our contract gutted when Comair financials show no need for concessions.

I don't know why this is so hard for you people to comprehend.


__________________
Afellowaviator


Well AFELL, you have just admitted your inability to actually understand

Inablility to actually understand.....sounds alot like a definition of stupid.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Re: i can comprehend just fine thanks...

AFELLOW WROTE:

AND...

what you people obviously don't understand, or simply cannot comprehend, is we don't give a crap where they put those airplanes now. We will not whore ourselves out just to get more flying, as so many have done.

We fought hard for our contract, and will not stand by and see our contract gutted when Comair financials show no need for concessions.

I don't know why this is so hard for you people to comprehend.


__________________
Afellowaviator


Well AFELL, you have just admitted your inability to actually understand what your amazing contract did at Comair. You set your self up for future contract reneg.'s (or guttings as I believe you put it) due to the fact that 7% above is just that - 7% ABOVE! (on the average - of course). Your ignorance to the fact that you dont care where aircraft are placed shows how little you know about the economy and a rising fair market principle. We haven't even completed the 8th full fiscal quarter since 9/11 and you think that you'll never need to give into some concessions based on Comairs current finances.

Well, you better hope that not much changes in the order of next November. You better be on your knees everynight before you start, continue on or complete your 5 day trips at CMR, praying that the market continues to perform like it has over the past 8 mos. If the economy has a hiccup, another 9/11 happens or if Bedford and Orenstein have more opprtunities to buy more, place more shiny new ones or gain even more market recognition, then there's a patch of ground in Northern KY that will slow down - maybe just a lil - but slow down nonetheless. And while you may still be sitting pretty in the left seat - you can't argue with the fact that you're company passes on difficulties to its employees. Every company does it and you better prepare yourself.

In closing (this long winded response), congrats on an awesome contract at CMR. You make a lot more dough than I do. However - the difference between a lot more dough and a little more dough is minimal until you make 150K a year by the way. In fact - a 5th year CA at any regional is still in the same tax bracket as any other 5th yr CA at a similar regional (or national - flying regional equipment for that matter). Me - I'll take my company's long term financial health and be happy with that. Don't be happy with the money you make - make money with the money you make - you'll be happy then.

Unreal. That one word just about sums up your post. You sir, don't get it and never will. Unreal.