CHQ new Delta jets?

[Skull-One]

Just because you guys at CHQ and SKW didn't take concessions as a part of your new contracts, does not mean that you did anything to stop the race to the bottom. Unless you got at least Comair + 1% MINIMUM, then you didn't do your part to help this industry as a whole. That is the point that my fellow aviators at Comair and ASA are saying. This is what XJT will do on our next contract, and we expect ASA to get even more than us on their next contract. That is the whole idea of negotiating a new contract, to bring up not just your own airline's compensation and work rules, but the entire industry as a whole. Kudos to the Comair and ASA pilots for actually getting it!

That's a flawed analysis. There are three bars in the industry:

TOP
BOTTOM
MEDIAN


Raising any of them helps the industry. In CHQ's case we helped raise the MEDIAN. We certainly did not lower the bottom bar and Comair plus anything is a heck of a stretch.

 

[TWAER]

Would you guys get off this Comair + crap. Comair couldn't get Comair pay today and all of you know it. Good for Comair a few years ago, but if you have not noticed, times they have changed.



Oh, I don't care about your bar at your Airline, but mine has been raised quite nicley thank you.

AND ACA did not get Comair pay. In fact their new TA is around the same pay as CHQ. FO's will make more at ACA but all other rates are within a couple of bucks of CHQ. I guess they lowered the bar huh. They didn't get the MAGICAL Comair pay + whatever.

 

[bvt1151]

From what I remember, CHQ required pilots to pay for training if they left early. If you take into account the difference in pay between CHQ and CMR pilots, it makes you wonder who actually paid more for their training. That being said, I don't buy the argument that you can justify a substandard contract because Comair had pay for training years ago.
Comair grew while Delta shrank because of the RJ. There is a huge cost difference between a 100-seat 737 and a 50-seat RJ, not to mention a revenue and frequency advantage, but its the airplane, not the pilots, that is responsible for the RJ's growth. CHQ on the other hand (just like Mesa) is growing strictly because they are the lowest bidder. CHQ is replacing 50-seaters with 50-seaters. We all understood when ACA came into CVG, because they were right-sizing the CVG market. CHQ did not create their own market in the Delta system. There was no reason to bring CHQ in other than to replace current DCI flying (MCO, DFW, IND) that CMR, ASA and Skywest already established. Of course Leo loves CHQ because you bring a serious downward pressure on our payroll. Thanks for bringing the whipsaw. I don't remember having to talk concessions in order to grow in our own profitable markets before CHQ got here. Does anyone else?

 

[TWAER]

Man, you can spin your crap anyway you want too. You can justify anything as long as it is not your fault. FYI: We were not the lowest bidder for the MCO flying. I won't mention the others who bid lower. I'll tell you another reason we got a Delta Code share. Delta wanted a 37 seat jet. You did not have one. There is no CRJ that only has 37 seats. Being a customer with EMB, it was easier and cheaper to take over the flying. Maybe if you flew the EMB 145, we would have never been a Delta Connection carrier. You know BVT, I for one, hope CHQ stops taking delivery of AC for Delta. It does me nor anyone else any good except the flight instructor on the street. All the flying that goes to regionals, is costing us jobs at the majors.

 

[bvt1151]

We all heard the stories about the 37 seaters (although ACA has 32 seaters and CMR has 40-seaters). It was a lame excuse by Leo to bring another group onto the property. I can't tell you the last time I saw a 37-seater in DAL colors. Conversely I've seen quite a few 145's at IND, SDF, CMH and DFW.
In fact, when CHQ first entered MCO I was privey to the idea. Move CMR up to the Northeast where higher yeilds await, and bring in a contract carrier to maintain market share in the low yield Florida market. Makes sense, until they put 50-seaters in DFW, LGA, SDF, IND and CMH. Only two reasons for that:

1. CHQ is cheaper than CMR. May be true, however I seriously doubt it. Especially when you take into account Delta has to cover both CHQ's expenses and their profit while CMR brings profit back to Delta. Not to mention its been said many times that CMR operates the CRJ cheaper than any other airline in the world.

2. Start a turf war among pilots to put downward pressure on wages. This fits the bill completely. Invade CMR's turf in MCO and ASA's turf in DFW and whala! You've got yourself a good old fashioned turf war with pilots fighting each other to see who will work the cheapest.

So what's your theory on why CHQ has 50-seaters in Delta colors? Don't say they're cheaper, because there's 32 millions reasons why Comair brings more money to Delta per aircraft than CHQ.

 

[Skull-One]

We closed the gap with Comair. If you CMR guys (those on this board spouting off that is) have any brains (or balls, if that's the case) you will use that to leverage a pay raise to get the spacing back to where it was before....or better work rules....or....or....or......

 

[bvt1151]

Your contract is below the CMR contract. Until you bring it up to, or above you will be bringing downward pressure on Comair's future contracts.

However I'm not even talking about the TA. Its already been established that it is more profitable to Delta for Comair to fly routes than CHQ. That being said, why are you here? Leo has brought you onto the property as negotiating capital. Much as the same way JO brought Freedom and you had Republic, you are here to provide DCI with another way to lower the WO's labor cost. Its a whipsaw-fest, and you're the catalyst. We were approached with the threat that if we did not take concessions, our growth would be deferred to smaller contract carriers "with lower costs and expanding regional jet capabilities." What that means is, your presence on the DCI network has created a VERY REAL downward pressure on our paychecks.
Why fight the unions when you can get them to fight each other for you? Pawns.

 

[MedFlyer]

Its already been established that it is more profitable to Delta for Comair to fly routes than CHQ.

Who established this?? Unless you've got some hard numbers, it hasn't been established (except maybe in your head).

That being said, why are you here? Leo has brought you onto the property as negotiating capital. Much as the same way JO brought Freedom and you had Republic, you are here to provide DCI with another way to lower the WO's labor cost. Its a whipsaw-fest, and you're the catalyst. We were approached with the threat that if we did not take concessions, our growth would be deferred to smaller contract carriers "with lower costs and expanding regional jet capabilities." What that means is, your presence on the DCI network has created a VERY REAL downward pressure on our paychecks.
Why fight the unions when you can get them to fight each other for you? Pawns.

You're absolutely right. And guess what? Comair does the same thing to mainline DL. You drag down the mainline wages. The only thing stopping you from undercutting mainline even more is scope. If Comair was given the opportunity, I'm sure you'd fly the 767 for 30% less than DL mainline.

Why fight DALPA when you can always get Comair to do it for cheaper? Pawns.

 

[TWAER]

PROVE IT! Show me where YOU get the info that CMR is cheaper to operate than CHQ. So you are telling me Delta pays for maint. payroll, aircraft leases????? Delta pays for Fuel, marketing, gates, Ummmmmmmmm welllllllll. Nice try. Let's not forget the fact that the EMB is cheaper(a lot) than the CRJ. I have been in both and the CRJ is much better. Anyway, you have no leg to stand on with that argument. Contracting out, no matter what business you are in, is cheaper. That being said, why take it out on the pilots that have no say in the matter? Did any pilot at CHQ choose to sign a code share with Delta? These are decisions made way over my head and yours. So you now say it is our fault because we signed such a terrible contract that allows us to "whore" ourselves out. I guess everyone EXCEPT Comair are a buch of whores. You have a contract you couldn't get now if you were on strike for 2 years. You took a stand(which I supported 100%) in a different world. It ain't company koolaid I've been drinking, it's just a dose of reality. We'll see very shortly how ASA and COEX do. The people I know over there want Comair pay and all that jazz, but tell me that will probably not happen. Go look at ACA's new TA. Their pay isn't Comair pay for the 50 seater. Their Dork pay is less than our 140 pay. They wanted Comair pay too.

Hey, I want Comair pay too, but here at little ole CHQ, we have to take it one thing at a time. I bet we would have gotten Comair pay + 10% if we allowed Republic to start up. How would you like that? You would probably see them right there with you in CVG and ATL. Hell, BB would be laughing real hard knowing in a few years his labor cost would go down by 50%.

Anyway, Why are you here. The Delta pilot next door ask that all the time. We are not taking your flying as much as we are all taking mainline flying.

 

[void]

bvt1151 wrote:

We all heard the stories about the 37 seaters (although ACA has 32 seaters and CMR has 40-seaters). It was a lame excuse by Leo to bring another group onto the property. I can't tell you the last time I saw a 37-seater in DAL colors. Conversely I've seen quite a few 145's at IND, SDF, CMH and DFW.

ACA has the Do328Jet, but they are already being used in other markets, and they aren't currently being manufactured, even though AVCraft might start it up again. CHQ had access to delivery slots for the 135.

The 40 seat CRJ is the same aircraft as the 44 and the 50 seat versions except for seats pulled out. They still cost somewhere in the 21-22 million range. The ERJ-145 cost somewhere around 16-17 million, and the 135 costs even less. I would imagine that the operating costs for the 135 would be significantly less than the 40 seat CRJ as well.

As far as you not seing a 135 in Delta colors, you aren't looking in the right places. IND, SDF and CMH are where 145's are used. As for DFW, I don't think you are looking very hard because 135's are flying in and out of there every day. However, most of CHQ's 135's are typically flying intra-Florida routes.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus
The waters really get muddied when earlier sins are accounted for, like buying a job at Comair. No aimed at you, simply an observation.

Russ,

I don't know of a single pilot that bought a job at Comair. A lot of Comair pilots trained at the CAA and yes they paid for that. However, that training never guaranteed any of them a job at Comair. The best they ever got for their money was good training and some, not all (the instructors) got an interview. However, you are entitled to whatever opinions you may have on the subject and anyone who choose to mirror your view, is equally free to do so.

Now what was your point and how does it realte to this debate?

I've also seen you state that SKYW did not give concessions. Well, you are entitled to that opinion also but it is substantially different from mine.

You in fact gave huge concessions in any aircraft that your company chooses to operate with more than 50 seats. You undercut Horizon's rates, Comair's rates, ASA's negotiations and if I not mistaken even Eagle. You put pressure on all of us that currently operate that equipment and forced ARW to do the same.

That was your choice and you had the right to make it. However don't say that you didn't concede anything because the fact is you did.

You believe that you got the UAL contract because of it. Well, you are free to think that as you wish. I believe that if all of you had refused to do that, you would have gotten the UAL contract anyway. They bluffed you and you fell for it.

We all have different perspectives Russ. Time will tell which one's make sense.

 

[trainerjet]

Russ,

I don't know of a single pilot that bought a job at Comair. A lot of Comair pilots trained at the CAA and yes they paid for that. However, that training never guaranteed any of them a job at Comair.

The fact that you claim not to "know" any sure doesn't change the fact that Comair (along with FlightSafety...and NOT the CAA) were among the first to instigate pay-for-training, where the candidates DID "buy their job" by paying for company and aircraft specific training required by Comair as a condition of employment.

You may BS many of these young guys who weren't around when it all happened with your long-winded, melodramatic crap. But when it comes to flat out lying, well...I guess that shows what you are made of.

This will be the last of your "posts" I will ever waste my time with. Liars, cheats and thieves I have no time for. Even if you only qualify as one, that's one too many for me.

I'm sure there are other respected members of this board who remember the days of the Comair/FlightSafety PFT deal. Maybe Bobbysamd? He (among others) will tell the truth.

 

[Skull-One]

Your contract is below the CMR contract. Until you bring it up to, or above you will be bringing downward pressure on Comair's future contracts.

If you wish to maintain the status quo we have in fact put upward pressure on wages. The "bottom feeders" are a lot closer to the top than we were before. Nice try though....

 

[jetflyer]

I don't think some of you realize how low CHQ's pay rates are compared to Comair's FUTURE PAY RATES. Comair's major raises have yet to kick in.

The final year of the contract beginning June 22, 2005 has
2nd year FO pay at like 38.50 an hour<---not bad, what is CHQs?? something in the mid to upper 20s, my god......
and
5th year CA pay at like 71.00 an hour<---not bad either

People also don't understand that as a line holder at Comair it is IMPOSSIBLE to get less than 82 hours unless you drop trips. Also at Comair you can bid HI lines at get up to 93 hours easily.

My last 3 pay cycles have paid me 95, 95, and 93 hours working only 16 days a month (4 4-days). I've been here less than a year and a half and I get commutable trips on both ends and still only have to work 4 4-days a month for that pay. 2nd year pay now does kinda suck at 35.75 an hour but I can live off it.

3rd year FO pay I'll get 38.33/hour
4th year FO pay I'll get 41.29/hour
5th year CA pay will like I said earlier be over 71/hour.

I'm afraid Comair's pay isn't high enough. All pilots are worth even more than this. Too bad others don't see that.

I just wish CHQ and Mesa would have said NO, to their first Contracts. What would this have hurt!!! OH NO FREEDOM, REPUBLIC. What the he-ll!!! You turn down the first contract, and the second one would have had the SAME EXACT wording to eliminate or limit FREEDOM AND REPUBLIC and you'd have still been able to get better pay, work rules etc. It's freekin retarded you guys don't see this.

They needed you pilots more than you give yourselves credit for. They'd have been forced to offer you better terms in the next contract offer. They needed you.

I'm afraid you guys just like being whores too much and like that you can take other regional pilot's jobs and get to upgrade to captain's fast. GOOD FOR YOU@!J)($#! Hope you're all so proud of yourselves You all deserve the hatred you get from other pilot groups. You guys asked for it VOTING YES.....

Jet

 

[Russ]

Surplus
I don't believe I have ever seen you on defense as its always about other airlines, at least when its not a Gen Lee's thread. That is semantics and you know it. No matter who the check was made out to, its PFT. You are quite a smart chap, its beneath you to try to argue otherwise. I am right behind you about what my airline did, not all of us voted yes, a large number would also like to be represented by a union and try to do our part.
I simply had to address the Comair posters who seem to entertain the belief of no original sin exists at your company.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Interestingly....Chautauqua too was PFT in the mid 1990s.

$10,000 to your favorite FSI location for Jetstream 3100 training.

 

[TWAER]

Looks like Jetflyer just got out of class at CAA. Before you come on here ranting and raving, get your facts straight.

It wasn't our first TA.
My line has 90 hours this month. Whatever point you were trying to make


Are you kidding me. You have no idea how far along RP was. Guess what? Their first(I mean our first) two planes just got picked up in BNA this weekend. And as for pilots; HA HA HA don't kid yourself. Get this, 30 Airways guys in class as of this friday. They were going with or without a contract.

I'm sorry, I didn't see you at the negotiation table. Which seat were sitting in. You seem like you know all the answers.

And actually, with the exception of a few like you on this board, I don't think there is any hate. But you better watch out, people like you are are giving Comair a bad name. If in fact you actually work for an airline.

 

[Stick Man]

To Jetflyer

Awesome - you'll either be or you already are a CA at CMR after 5 years - that's great. I'll be a CA in my second year if all goes well at CHQ (and yes. . . if and when CHQ grows as rumored - I can be a lil skeptical too). Now my numbers aren't exact but they're close. I'll be making 25K more a year than you in years 2, 3, and 4. Thats 75K total. In you're fifth year - at CMR, you'll make like appx. 7-8 grand more than me a year when I'm a 5th yr CA at CHQ. At that rate you're total earnings will be caught up to mine in appx. 5.5 yrs after our 5th yr CA pay - or appx. 10 yrs into our job. You still gonna be at CMR? I hope that I am not still flying ERJ's by that point. So don't raise the money issue - that's not what this is all about - it's about security and QOL. It's also about the next biggest and baddest a/c that we command (another big-boy toy).


QOL . . . that's funny . . .

. . . Don't call me a whore when u fly 90 some hour months - that makes you a tool who probably has a crappy home life, no big boy toys and a bummer for QOL. Work like a dog for 16 days a month - and then go home and recouperate. I don't call people names usually - but you are a 'tard!

Life is about QOL - and that's what we negotiated for (at CHQ) - more money and better work rules. Bottom line.

 

[Skull-One]

Re: To Jetflyer

Awesome - you'll either be or you already are a CA at CMR after 5 years - that's great. I'll be a CA in my second year if all goes well at CHQ (and yes. . .

[...]

. . . Don't call me a whore when u fly 90 some hour months - that makes you a tool who probably has a crappy home life, no big boy toys and a bummer for QOL. Work like a dog for 16 days a month - and then go home and recouperate. I don't call people names usually - but you are a 'tard!

Life is about QOL - and that's what we negotiated for (at CHQ) -
more money and better work rules. Bottom line.

HAHAHAHAHA! Game....set....MATCH. Nice job.

 

[SizzleChest]

Look, for those of you that said CHQ lowered the bar I say go on raise it with your next contracts! That way in 3.5 years we can go get +1% of your "bitchin'" contract that you are so sure to get. We took no concessions when everyone else is, got pay raises when nobody else is and other QOL issues. SkyWest is facing higher insurance and other negative things there since they are non-union and many are looking to jump ship to WN or wherever. Air Wis and other companies took pay downgrades... mesaba is faced with issues and other pilots are facing issues at other companies. I for one am glad to have this behind us and can now spend the $ i saved in case of a strike. I have a 2003 truck, a new house and 2002 motorcycle all paid for by CHQ. I am pretty lucky and will tell anyone that. More power to all of you in negoitiations or nearing expiration... hats off to you for raising the bar we will be working off that in 3.5. We went 2+ years without a contract and can manage 3.5 more. If you are so confident in your skills then go get 'em tiger! We will be there to laugh when you find out it is harder than you think. All CEOs are one the alter-ego/whipsaw band wagon. The pilots make the $ that pays the lawyers to fight you to the bitter end and company's advantage.

peace!