CHQ new Delta jets?

[knightflyer]

Blah Blah Blah,

When your on the bottom, there is only one way to go.

 

[Stick Man]

to (Michael) Knightflyer

Well then enlighten us please knightflyer - who are you "on the top" with ? - since we're "on the bottom" here at CHQ. You must have an amazing job if you truly have 10000 flight hours. And if you do have 10000 hours - WTF are you doing here posting on the regional board? Get a life.

Hmmm. . . . one day I imagine . . . . myself . . . .

having 10000 flight hours, making fun of a pilot group that improved their contract in every way (post 9/11), subscribing to a posting board and actually caring about what is said enough to post a one-line response.

In the mean time - I'll be happy with what those before me have done, I'll fly my butt off, make ok FO cha-ching and very admirable CA cha-ching, build 10,000 hrs and move on to bigger better and faster - actually - let me change that - by 5,000 hrs I hope I will have moved on to bigger, better and faster. HERE'S WHERE THE SARCASM STARTS! - I'll make lots of money and fly only 12 days a month. That will allow me to spend lots of time caring about what other airline pukes are doing at their respective company. I'll be able to post one-liners on the internet post boards and feel real cool about the fact that others can read the drivel that flows from my lips. Then, and only then will my pathetic life be complete - knightflyer - get a clue.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

by 5,000 hrs I hope I will have moved on to bigger, better and faster. "

Then you'll move on to some middle of the road carrier, spend a few years there, move on to a major airline, fly there for a few years and then -- once you DO have around 10,000 hrs -- maybe you'll get furloughed and try to get hired again as an F/O at a company like Chautauqua.

Thats about the time that you'll think... "Why the HECK would they agree to a TA that tops FOs out at a 4 year payscale???"

You said, "And if you do have 10000 hours - WTF are you doing here posting on the regional board? Get a life."

A little thing called 09/11 took that from some of us my friend. We were all in your shoes a few years ago...and we ALL thought that by the time we had more than 5000 hours we would have been firmly, securely, at a major airline.

Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. Try and show a little understanding ok?

 

[Stick Man]

response

Furloughed - I have read and respected many of your posts - however please don't forget something - you sleep in the bed that you make.

You wrote, "Then you'll move on to some middle of the road carrier, spend a few years there, move on to a major airline, fly there for a few years and then -- once you DO have around 10,000 hrs -- maybe you'll get furloughed and try to get hired again as an F/O at a company like Chautauqua.

Thats about the time that you'll think... "Why the HECK would they agree to a TA that tops FOs out at a 4 year payscale???"


Only problem with that is that you chose (and others chose) to go where they wanted. When you (or someone else) leaves a seemingly stable job for another - you take a chance. Just because a chance is taken doesn't give someone the right to come on a posting board and post a statement like knightrider's. Well, it doesn't give him the right to post it without a response. Hence the reason for my response. Please don't blame anyone at CHQ for taking a deal that affects a furloughed pilot more than a pilot in the normal progression of an airline career (without a furlough). Those pilots that you refer to in your prior post, chose to make the decision to move on and up. No one forced them. And yes, I know that 9/11 reaked a bunch of havoc on the industry - but it reaked a lot of havoc on all industries. I primarily felt it in the stock market.

One more thing, you said, "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. Try and show a little understanding ok?".

In what way did I not show understanding? When I fired a retort towards Knightrider? Just after he said," When your on the bottom, there is only one way to go."? I'll show understanding when it's due. Knightridder didn't deserve any understanding.

 

[jetflyer]

2nd year F.O. pay still in the twenties!!

PAY FOR TRAINING is more like it!

 

[GearDwnFlaps15]

Re: To Jetflyer

It's also about the next biggest and baddest a/c that we command (another big-boy toy).

ROFLMAO.....Lemme guess.... Rayban aviators, a really big watch and you always stop by the grocery store on your way home from work......wearing your hat, of course, because company policy requires it be worn when you're in view of the public.



So, was there anything else in your post? This is the only sentence I remember from it........Get it?????

 

[LearLove]

by 5,000 hrs I hope I will have moved on to bigger, better and faster. "

Then you'll move on to some middle of the road carrier, spend a few years there, move on to a major airline, fly there for a few years and then -- once you DO have around 10,000 hrs -- maybe you'll get furloughed and try to get hired again as an F/O at a company like Chautauqua.

Thats about the time that you'll think... "Why the HECK would they agree to a TA that tops FOs out at a 4 year payscale???"

You said, "And if you do have 10000 hours - WTF are you doing here posting on the regional board? Get a life."

A little thing called 09/11 took that from some of us my friend. We were all in your shoes a few years ago...and we ALL thought that by the time we had more than 5000 hours we would have been firmly, securely, at a major airline.

Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. Try and show a little understanding ok?

Thank You FurloughedAgain

 

[Sam Fisher]

Re: a lil help for my boy...

CHQ (one of the only, if not the only airline to turn a profit in the first financial quarter post 9/11 in part, due to firm fuel price negotiations - smart huh!)

More $, more flying, many new shiny planes - in fact the only operator that has been taking a/c steadily for the last year, great people to work for (ok the religious dude -

ExpressJet will show a greater than $100 million profit AFTER taxes for 2003. It was roughly $85 million after taxes for 2002. Don't forget SWA, JetBlue, and Airtran...all turning a profit, which is especially impressive given the fact that they don't operate under a "cost-plus" contract that virtually guarantees positive margins.

Furthermore, ExpressJet received over 40 airplanes this year and will take delivery of 21 in 2004.

Just a fact check there.....

Sam

 

[surplus1]

Will Bedford ask the CHQ pilots to take some concessions on their new contract to get the "growth" that would have gone to Comair?

When he does, will they go for it? Just think of all the upgrades.

Or will Mesa make a successful bid and beat CHQ to the table?

Just think guys, if you can outbid Mesa, you get 80 new jets and double the size of your airline.

 

[Skull-One]

TROLL.

 

[TWAER]

Hey, maybe ACA will do it. You know they are about to take a 3% pay cut for the RJ. Oh, I forgot, surplus, you only hate Mesa and CHQ. Hell, Comair could take concessions and you would still be bashing Mesa and CHQ for "lowering YOUR bar". And get it straight. ANY more flying done by Comair, ASA, CHQ, ACA or SW will be at the expense of mainline.


BTW Don't expect any concessions from CHQ. We didn't take em in the new contract, and this pilot group will not take em now. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

ACA is also about to become its own "mainline", so let's not compare apples to oranges.

 

[TWAER]

I don't care who they fly for, even if it is themselves. They still are taking a pay cut on the RJ. 50 seat RJ's are 50 seat RJ's. That is apples to apples hate to tell ya. Their RJ rates are pretty much the same as CHQ give or take $1.00. That is not the point. I wish ACA the best. They have to do what they have to do. I don't work there so I not going to comment on their situation. The point is, certain poeple want to pick out CHQ to say they lowered the bar. In fact, we are the only ones that have raised it. It may not be where you want it, but it was raised. When all you smart guys get your $100 an hour rate for the 50 seater, I'll stop defending our joke of a contract. Until then, put up or shut up.

 

[Airpiraterob]

ahem,

so what about these delta jets? didn't someone mention them a few PAGES ago? isnt that what this post is about?

i wonder when the separate forum, "regional contracts and squabbles" will show up.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

TWAer,

My ONLY complaint about your contract is the First Officer payscales along with the max F/O pay at 4 years.

I think you screwed the future copilots who may be in that seat for 5-10 years when the growth comes to a stop.

Aside from that it seems as though you made some real progress.

It is unfortunate that neither your company, your pilots, or apparently your negotiating committee see any real value in the F/O position other than "seat filler" or stepping stone to the Captains seat.

Just my opinion.

 

[TWAER]

That's why it is a 4(four) did I mention 4 year deal. I will be willing to bet a whole lot that in the next Contract, our FO's will be paid a WHOLE lot more. We could have really screwed them if we signed a 10 year deal like some other carriers. I know, I know, it will take 7-10 years for us to get our next contract. I really don't believe that seeing it took a little more than a year to negotiate this contract.

Just my opinion. Anyone who know what will happen in this industry in the next few years, please enlighten me.

Enjoy the football!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

TWAER,

You've been in this industry for quite some time. Do you honestly think that, if times are better in 4 years, Chautauqua management will willingly enter into prompt negotiations to "upgrade" your PWA?

I don't buy it.

Nor do I find it a particularly good excuse for shafting a fellow aviator.

 

[Cracker]

About the 4 year FO payscale...does anyone know about the J4J agreement? I'm too lazy to type out a long message...but in short, our EC said that J4J pilots being garaunteed TOP FO Pay had a bit to do with us not wanting 10 year payscale, for instance. Sure, currently it may hurt our 5 year FO's, but the fact still remains that we don't have any 5 year FO's. When our next contract comes around, it will be discussed then. I'm sure that we'll 6+ year FO payscales.

 

[TWAER]

I shafted no fellow pilot. Any FO at CHQ was free to vote no on the TA. Any future pilot looking for work doesn't have to apply here. It's a free country and nobody is forced to accept a job here. Again, I will bet in 4 years the pay will get much better at CHQ. You know, I have been in this industry for a while and I have never seen anyone get everything they want in a contract. Did the FO's give up a big pay raise? Yes. DID they take a pay cut? NO. DO they have to worry about their upgrade slot going to a guy making less than him at RP? NO. Call it what you want, but I have yet to fly with an FO here that is real upset about their pay. Just my observation.

 

[surplus1]

Hey, maybe ACA will do it. You know they are about to take a 3% pay cut for the RJ. Oh, I forgot, surplus, you only hate Mesa and CHQ. Hell, Comair could take concessions and you would still be bashing Mesa and CHQ for "lowering YOUR bar". And get it straight. ANY more flying done by Comair, ASA, CHQ, ACA or SW will be at the expense of mainline.

Actually TWAER, I don't hate Mesa or CHQ, just as I didn't hate TWA for flying for next to nothing. If you check my posts you'll see that I personally haven't spent any time bashing your airline or Mesa either. As you point out you made substantial improvements in your contract just about everywhere. Even Mesa didn't actually take a pay cut, they just didn't get a raise.

You are not the one's that started the pay cut spiral and I know that. If I have an axe to grind on that score it would be with Skywest first, ARW second and ACA third. Those are the three that were bluffed into concessions by UAL.

The complaint I have with Mesa is not pay rates, it's their acceptance of J4J, which forced you and TAS to do the same. For J4J, I blame the entity that created it, i.e., ALPA.

One thing that does bother me about your new contract is your explanation of the FO rates. You say it's in part because of J4J, but I don't get your logic. That 4-year scale may be low enough to keep the USAir pilots out of your FO seats, but it won't prevent them from taking 50% of your captain seats. Since every captain seat they take will keep one of you in the FO position longer, your logic escapes me.

You point out that you don't have any 4-yr FO's and apparently you don't expect that you will. That means you expect to grow fast enough for every new hire to become a captain overnight. My question is this: If you don't grow at the rates you anticipate, how are your FO's going to upgrade? Into what? Personally, I've never liked a contract that favors captains at the expense of FO's in the same airline. Whether you like it or not, I think that's tacky.

I suppose a bunch of you all think that as soon as you get this magic 1000 PIC you're all going to be hired by some major and the FO's can move up to the vacancies you leave. I can't help but wonder which major you think is going to do that hiring.

You all are talking about JBlue and AirTrain and SWA. I guess those carriers will be hiring, but you seem to overlook that there are thousands of furloughed mainline pilots ready and able to take those slots. Do you really believe that a guy who's already been flying a 320, a 737 or a 9, doesn't have a chance compared to an EMB driver with a thousand PIC? Given your experience level (as stated here), it's hard to grasp your logic. As Fourloughed Again says, there are a lot of unrealistic expectations going around these days. Guys with 8, 10, 15 even 18 years at U are on the streets. Tons of people from TWA (AA) are on the streets, and from UAL, NWA, CAL and DAL.

At Comair we are being told that the growth will go elsewhere if we do not concede and that it will be 83 aircraft. We are also being told that the value of the concessions we were asked to give is about $8 millions a year. How do you suppose we're going to "buy" 83 RJs, with eight million dollars. It would take 20 years of that. Any pilot group that believes it can buy growth with pilot pay is letting someone blow a lot of smoke where the sun don't shine.

Face it, you're all being played like the proverbial fiddle. If it continues, we will be facing furloughs too and eventually the concessions will come. At that point you will be threatened in the same way. It will continue until we are all so cheap that the job isn't worth having. We will lower the costs until the airlines lowering the costs find their fees for departure lowered again and they themselves become unprofitable. Just like the big guys.

First the big guys price themselves out of profitability on the high side, then the little guys price themselves into unprofitability on the low side. Brilliant.

How long do you really think Delta can hold out, when American and UAL have gone where they have? CAL is already very low and will stay there, U is as far from recovery as they can get. Look at AWA's new "miracle". Reality will soon come to NWA. When Delta eventually matches JBlue and AirTran, what will they do? Lower their costs to continue growing? You can bet on it. Who will pay --- the flight crews. If Spirit can fly for those wages, so can JB and AT. Before too long we'll all be on a par with Aeroflot and LOT.

I don't blame management for trying this. I blame us all for letting them get away with it. We are so stupid that we can't even figure out that we have put ourselves into a bidding war that benefits no pilot anywhere.

BTW Don't expect any concessions from CHQ. We didn't take em in the new contract, and this pilot group will not take em now. Sorry to disappoint.

The day will come when your management will be telling you exactly what our management is telling us. Make concessions or the growth will go to Shuttle America. Give up what you just got if you want to coninue your "growth", or we give the jets to them. When it does, we'll see what you do.