CFII Before CFI ?

[nosehair]

No disrespect intended here, just saying that most of us are CFIASEL right out of the gate and its just too much verbage to say all that when everyone knows what you mean. If I walked up to the average pilot and said Im a CFII, theyd know I was a CFI as well.

You know that, and I know that, and probably more than 50%, which would be a majority, of certified instructors know that, but there are a lot that don't, and a lot more Privates working on their Commercial, who intend to be flight instructors, who don't know that.

The question comes up a lot in the training world because of the "normal flow" of training from single to instrument to multi. Not only does it follow a logical training flow from simple to complex, but it is more economical.

Good training philosophy would dictate a more logical flow from simple to complex, so it is reasonable for the average person to assume that the CFI - Airplane Single Engine would come first and foremost.

The only exception to that would be a person who is never going to get into a single-engine airplane. There are some. If you're only going to fly/instruct multi engine, then it would be ok. But that's not the normal case, and 99% of the new flight instructors are going to be teaching primary pre-solo students how to handle a single engine P-factor machine. It yaws to the left in a climb and yaws to the right in a glide. Good glide (pitch) control and anti-yaw from P-Factor (rudder) control is essential in teaching primary. The basics of aircraft control. These don't exist in multi engine flying. The emphasis is on advaced procedures and techniques, not fundamentals, which is tested on the CFI-Ase, and experience is gained doing CFI-Ase.

As another point to consider, to those who do the CFII first, you might want to consider the way this FAR reads: 61.195 Flight Instructor Limitations and Qualifications.
(b) Aircraft Ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating.

In other words, a CFI-Ase if the instrument training is being conducted in a single engine airplane in flight.

A CFI - IA only can only teach instruments in a simulator. He/She cannot conduct any flight training in an aircraft.

I know it is being done - and gets blessed by DE's and the FAA, because it used to be that way. That regulation above did not exist until relatively recently, and some of those old dogs just cannot get the change.

But anybody can read the reg and see what it means.

 

[Ray Finkle]

My only point is that physicall saying everytime "Im a CFIASEL" is conversationally exhaustive and sounds, for lack of a better word, ghey. I hear what you are saying, but Ive never come across any questions when I said Im a CFI (when thats all I was) other than am I a CFII or MEI. Now I say Im a CFII and no one questions it. It's assumed, right or wrong, that Im CFI as well and ASEL. I think its an arguement that can be argued "technically" that if you are a CFI, you should state the ASEL. But, in the normal course of conversation its reasonable to expect 99% of the time that Im ASEL. Unless I am standing on the dock of a seaplane base and telling everyone Im a CFI...then I think its obvious there that I would be CFIASES!

Cheers!

 

[Ray Finkle]

Oops! Double posted!

 

[celloman]

So I got my CFII first with an in house examiner at a 141 school. Then my CFI with a DPE. The school had some very valid reasons why they chose to do it in this order.

1. You get time to sit in the right seat in a non complex airplane with normal landings. Adjusting to the feeling.

2. Once you have the CFII the time required in the complex airplane is less. Costing the student less.

3. The check ride with the DPE was a non event, at that point it was just an add on. I am not saying the initial with the in house examiner was easy.... My oral was 6 hours long.

I got my CFII just prior to 9-11 and was working on my CFI at the time. If I had my choice I would have done with CFI first. Like was said before.... Its hard to get a job with just a CFII....

Oh and the school I went to is now CLOSED.....

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Damn, I'm glad I don't flight instruct anymore. Some people need to mellow out. Nobody whines about minor details like this after about 6 months of airline flying.
CFI, CFIASEL, CFII...who cares. Quit being such know-it-alls.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Oh and the school I went to is now CLOSED.....

Airman in OK?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

A CFI - IA only can only teach instruments in a simulator. He/She cannot conduct any flight training in an aircraft.

I know it is being done - and gets blessed by DE's and the FAA, because it used to be that way. That regulation above did not exist until relatively recently, and some of those old dogs just cannot get the change.

But anybody can read the reg and see what it means.

Nosehair: With all due respect, this just can not be. I know of several CFI-IA only instructors who teach instrument students in both single and multiengine airplanes. As long as they are rated in those types of airplanes on their pilot certificate then it's OK. These instructors recommend students for their IRA tests and when they use IACRA the computer accepts this. The examiners pass these students and all the paper work goes through without a hitch. So are you saying this is all wrong? What is your reference for this if that is true?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

My only point is that physicall saying everytime "Im a CFIASEL" is conversationally exhaustive.Cheers!

Look there is no such thing as a CFIASEL either. There is a CFIASE but no land or sea. And again, is a CFI-G a CFI? Of course he his. Is a CFIRH a CFI? Is a CFIRG a CFI? Is a CFIIA a CFI? All of these are CFI's. While you and your friends may all think of a CFI as a CFIASE and that everyone thinks this, that's just because they are all wrong and its a misnomer. Just like everyone calling a "Flight Review" a "Bi-Annual flight review. Of course that is a misnomer too, because it is a Biennial Flight Review. Bi-Annual means twice a year and Biennial means every two years. So just because all your friends call it a Biannual that doesn't make it correct. And just as you think a CFI is a CFIASE, that is just not correct. A CFI is a Certified Flight Instructor and that is all. And all seven CFI’s are CFI’s too.

 

[nosehair]

What is your reference for this if that is true?

61.195 Flight Instructor Limitations and Qualifications.
(b) Aircraft Ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating.

As I posted in my orginal post; the FAR itself in black-and-white. Do you not see it? And did I not say that I know this reg is being broken all over the place because DE's and even FSDO's have not caught up with this change in regulation. There may be a legal opinion that contradicts this Flight Instructor Limitation, but I haven't seen it yet.

 

[nosehair]

Damn, I'm glad I don't flight instruct anymore.

Yeah, with that kind of contribution to the effort, we're glad you don't, anymore, too.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

61.195 Flight Instructor Limitations and Qualifications.
(b) Aircraft Ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating.

As I posted in my orginal post; the FAR itself in black-and-white. Do you not see it? And did I not say that I know this reg is being broken all over the place because DE's and even FSDO's have not caught up with this change in regulation. There may be a legal opinion that contradicts this Flight Instructor Limitation, but I haven't seen it yet.

As you know Part 61 was re-written a few years ago and what followed were hundreds of FOQA's on this section. So many that the section is going to rewritten again, or so I hear. There has never been a section of the regulations that has ever had so much confusion that there were so many questions on it. So I blame the fact that the regulation was written wrong and it was not its intention to stop a CFI-IA from teaching instrument in an airplane. While it does appear that what you say it does say, the fact remains that no Office anywhere (that I know of) is interpreting it that way, including the Certification branch that wrote the IACRA program.

 

[nosehair]

including the Certification branch that wrote the IACRA program.

Well, the certification branch won't catch it, because you can get a CFI-IA only. That doesn't stop them from certifying you that way - it is up to the CFI to comply with his/her limitations.

And, as you know, no ASI is going after this little irregularity, but it may rear up to bite someone who is doing actual in-flight instruction without a category/class rating on his/her CFI certificate, if some accident happens.

I only point this out to make the point that there are mis-interpretations to FAA regs that even the FAA mis-interprets.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Who get's the CFI-IA only anyway?

Get both. Problem solved. There are many more private students than instrument students anyhow.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Look there is no such thing as a CFIASEL either. There is a CFIASE but no land or sea. And again, is a CFI-G a CFI? Of course he his. Is a CFIRH a CFI? Is a CFIRG a CFI? Is a CFIIA a CFI? All of these are CFI's. While you and your friends may all think of a CFI as a CFIASE and that everyone thinks this, that's just because they are all wrong and its a misnomer. Just like everyone calling a "Flight Review" a "Bi-Annual flight review. Of course that is a misnomer too, because it is a Biennial Flight Review. Bi-Annual means twice a year and Biennial means every two years. So just because all your friends call it a Biannual that doesn't make it correct. And just as you think a CFI is a CFIASE, that is just not correct. A CFI is a Certified Flight Instructor and that is all. And all seven CFI’s are CFI’s too.

Ok, I was trying to make the point, for those who are so caught up on being politically correct about how you identify yourself, that saying "Hi, I'm a CFI" will, for the most part, in most cases, identify you as a flight instructor in your typical single engine land aircraft. That's all. IMHO, it's getting awfully anal to say anything beyond that.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Who get's the CFI-IA only anyway?

Get both. Problem solved. There are many more private students than instrument students anyhow.

Absolutely! Plus, you take your private student right to their Instrument. If everything went well between the two of you in Primary, then they'll most likely stay with you, generating more business for you as an Instuctor. The other way, your waiting for an instrument student to come along and most will stay with their initial instructor. Really limiting yourself that way.