CFII Before CFI ?

[Amish RakeFight]

Oh and the school I went to is now CLOSED.....

Airman in OK?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

A CFI - IA only can only teach instruments in a simulator. He/She cannot conduct any flight training in an aircraft.

I know it is being done - and gets blessed by DE's and the FAA, because it used to be that way. That regulation above did not exist until relatively recently, and some of those old dogs just cannot get the change.

But anybody can read the reg and see what it means.

Nosehair: With all due respect, this just can not be. I know of several CFI-IA only instructors who teach instrument students in both single and multiengine airplanes. As long as they are rated in those types of airplanes on their pilot certificate then it's OK. These instructors recommend students for their IRA tests and when they use IACRA the computer accepts this. The examiners pass these students and all the paper work goes through without a hitch. So are you saying this is all wrong? What is your reference for this if that is true?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

My only point is that physicall saying everytime "Im a CFIASEL" is conversationally exhaustive.Cheers!

Look there is no such thing as a CFIASEL either. There is a CFIASE but no land or sea. And again, is a CFI-G a CFI? Of course he his. Is a CFIRH a CFI? Is a CFIRG a CFI? Is a CFIIA a CFI? All of these are CFI's. While you and your friends may all think of a CFI as a CFIASE and that everyone thinks this, that's just because they are all wrong and its a misnomer. Just like everyone calling a "Flight Review" a "Bi-Annual flight review. Of course that is a misnomer too, because it is a Biennial Flight Review. Bi-Annual means twice a year and Biennial means every two years. So just because all your friends call it a Biannual that doesn't make it correct. And just as you think a CFI is a CFIASE, that is just not correct. A CFI is a Certified Flight Instructor and that is all. And all seven CFI’s are CFI’s too.

 

[nosehair]

What is your reference for this if that is true?

61.195 Flight Instructor Limitations and Qualifications.
(b) Aircraft Ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating.

As I posted in my orginal post; the FAR itself in black-and-white. Do you not see it? And did I not say that I know this reg is being broken all over the place because DE's and even FSDO's have not caught up with this change in regulation. There may be a legal opinion that contradicts this Flight Instructor Limitation, but I haven't seen it yet.

 

[nosehair]

Damn, I'm glad I don't flight instruct anymore.

Yeah, with that kind of contribution to the effort, we're glad you don't, anymore, too.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

61.195 Flight Instructor Limitations and Qualifications.
(b) Aircraft Ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating.

As I posted in my orginal post; the FAR itself in black-and-white. Do you not see it? And did I not say that I know this reg is being broken all over the place because DE's and even FSDO's have not caught up with this change in regulation. There may be a legal opinion that contradicts this Flight Instructor Limitation, but I haven't seen it yet.

As you know Part 61 was re-written a few years ago and what followed were hundreds of FOQA's on this section. So many that the section is going to rewritten again, or so I hear. There has never been a section of the regulations that has ever had so much confusion that there were so many questions on it. So I blame the fact that the regulation was written wrong and it was not its intention to stop a CFI-IA from teaching instrument in an airplane. While it does appear that what you say it does say, the fact remains that no Office anywhere (that I know of) is interpreting it that way, including the Certification branch that wrote the IACRA program.

 

[nosehair]

including the Certification branch that wrote the IACRA program.

Well, the certification branch won't catch it, because you can get a CFI-IA only. That doesn't stop them from certifying you that way - it is up to the CFI to comply with his/her limitations.

And, as you know, no ASI is going after this little irregularity, but it may rear up to bite someone who is doing actual in-flight instruction without a category/class rating on his/her CFI certificate, if some accident happens.

I only point this out to make the point that there are mis-interpretations to FAA regs that even the FAA mis-interprets.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Who get's the CFI-IA only anyway?

Get both. Problem solved. There are many more private students than instrument students anyhow.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Look there is no such thing as a CFIASEL either. There is a CFIASE but no land or sea. And again, is a CFI-G a CFI? Of course he his. Is a CFIRH a CFI? Is a CFIRG a CFI? Is a CFIIA a CFI? All of these are CFI's. While you and your friends may all think of a CFI as a CFIASE and that everyone thinks this, that's just because they are all wrong and its a misnomer. Just like everyone calling a "Flight Review" a "Bi-Annual flight review. Of course that is a misnomer too, because it is a Biennial Flight Review. Bi-Annual means twice a year and Biennial means every two years. So just because all your friends call it a Biannual that doesn't make it correct. And just as you think a CFI is a CFIASE, that is just not correct. A CFI is a Certified Flight Instructor and that is all. And all seven CFI’s are CFI’s too.

Ok, I was trying to make the point, for those who are so caught up on being politically correct about how you identify yourself, that saying "Hi, I'm a CFI" will, for the most part, in most cases, identify you as a flight instructor in your typical single engine land aircraft. That's all. IMHO, it's getting awfully anal to say anything beyond that.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Who get's the CFI-IA only anyway?

Get both. Problem solved. There are many more private students than instrument students anyhow.

Absolutely! Plus, you take your private student right to their Instrument. If everything went well between the two of you in Primary, then they'll most likely stay with you, generating more business for you as an Instuctor. The other way, your waiting for an instrument student to come along and most will stay with their initial instructor. Really limiting yourself that way.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Many of you may find this strange and it is uncommon, but I know several CFI-IA's that are only CFI-IA's. And they get more than their share of instrument students because they hold themselves out as instrument only specialists and people buy it. Yes I know this is rediculous because those with the ASE in addition to the CFI-IA are just that much more qualified but for whatever reason the CFI-IA's are doing OK, plus they can call themselves CFI's for their ego if they wish. Plus since they really don't like to sign off BFR's for their friends (liability concerns) who can not fly very well, they have the best excuse in the world, "Sorry I'm only a CFI-IA, I can not do BFR's, only instrument instruction, I'm a specialist." Those that are just CFI-IA's that I know like their special distinction that they think they have.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Nosehair: Again, I mean no disrespect of your valuable opinions but it seems that the FAQ's on this subject do not agree with the interpetation that you have posted on this subject: A CFI-IA can give instrument training in an airplane as long as his/her pilot certificate have the appropriate catagory and class rating. According the the FAQ on this, the class rating is not required on a CFI certificate. And besides, there are no class ratings ever on a CFI certificate, Example: CFI-ASE is not a class, CFI-AME is not a class, CFI-G is not a class. So how could it be necessary to have an appropriate catagory and class rating on a CFI certificate when there is no such thing? Your comments please.

QUESTION 3a: Can a Flight Instructor with only an Instrument-Airplane rating on his CFI certificate (but no Airplane Single-Engine rating on his CFI, but does have the Airplane Single Engine Land rating on his pilot certificate) give the flight training required by §61.107(b)(1)(ix) and §61.109(a)(3) for the Private Pilot Certificate and the Airplane Single Engine Land rating?

ANSWER 3a: Ref. §61.195(c); The answer is yes, provided the flight instructor holds “. . . an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.” The answer is addressed in §61.195(c), which states:

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

Read the words “. . . must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided” VERY CAREFULLY. Yes, that is what it means.

So in the example in your question, the flight instructor would have to hold instrument privileges for the Airplane Single Engine Land rating on his pilot certificate AND ALSO instrument instructing privileges for the single engine airplane on his Flight Instructor Certificate. Yes, that is what §61.195(c) means! In the past, I have heard of an unwritten rumor going around that supposedly said a flight instructor who only held a Flight Instructor Certificate-Instrument Airplane and Commercial Pilot Certificate with an ASEL rating and Instrument-Airplane rating could provide instrument training to an applicant in a multiengine airplane. THAT PRACTICE IS NOT PERMITTED ANY LONGER, if it was ever permitted in the first place!

As an example, a flight instructor, who only holds a CFII-A rating is giving instrument training to an Instrument-Airplane applicant in an single engine land airplane. That flight instructor must hold the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate Commercial Pilot Certificate or ATP
Instrument-Airplane Airplane Single Engine Land
Instrument-Airplane

Another example. A flight instructor, who only holds a CFII-A rating is giving instrument training to an Instrument-Airplane applicant in an multengine land airplane. That flight instructor must hold the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate Commercial Pilot Certificate or ATP
Instrument-Airplane Airplane Multiengine Land
Instrument-Airplane

However this example is a “NO-NO” and a violation of §61.195(c). A flight instructor, who only holds the following and wishes to give instrument training to an Instrument-Airplane applicant in an multengine land airplane shall not do so.

Flight Instructor Certificate Commercial Pilot Certificate or ATP
Instrument-Airplane Airplane Single Engine Land
Instrument-Airplane

As per §61.195(c), which states in pertinent part: “. . . must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.”

 

[Amish RakeFight]

.................

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Who get's the CFI-IA only anyway?

For all the reason I have mentioned already many people get the CFI-IA first. One reason is that it is a much easier test than the CFI-ASE.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

For all the reason I have mentioned already many people get the CFI-IA first. One reason is that it is a much easier test than the CFI-ASE.

Right, but I meant who gets the CFI-IA only - as in not getting the CFI-ASE ever.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Right, but I meant who gets the CFI-IA only - as in not getting the CFI-ASE ever.

As I mentioned in Post #31, there are some who choose this for the reasons I've listed.

 

[nosehair]

it seems that the FAQ's on this subject do not agree with the interpetation that you have posted on this

The FAQ's are dead. And the FAQ on this subject seems to be referencing the old way the reg used to read. Yes, it was possible to be an Instrument - Airplane instructor, and teach airplane instruments in a (1) ASEL if that was on your comercial certificate, and a (2) AMEL if that was on your commercial certificate. But, as you see, that is not the wording of the regulation anymore. The category and class must be on your CFI certificate to instruct in any airplane.

See how hard it is for you to accept, even though it is pretty straight forward in the instructor limitations regulation.

It does not read the way it used to. Get used to it.

And besides, there are no class ratings ever on a CFI certificate, Example: CFI-ASE is not a class,

Yes it is. You know better than that. Itis category and class; A is airplane; that is a category; SE is class, a single-engine.

 

[nosehair]

Right, but I meant who gets the CFI-IA only - as in not getting the CFI-ASE ever.

There used to be lots of people. Not the standard pivate-to-commercial-to-cfi in single-engine airplanes, but military/airline/corporate pilots would get their double eye only, when it was legal, because they were only going to instruct multi-engine instruments anyway. Type ratings and all that.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Nosehair,
I have to agree with UndauntedFlyer. The reason is that an instrument instructor is not providing instruction in flight maneuvers; he is providing instruction in instrument procedures. The student is already certified in flight maneuvers.

These clips were taken directly from the FAA's website on the FAR's.

Here is the section of the FAR's that was current from 1978 to 2004.
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
http://www1.airweb.faa.gov/Regulato...D0B3873B38226C0386256959004C26C3?OpenDocument

Here is the exact same section of the FAR's that is current from 2004 to Present.
As you can see, there were no changes to this particular section of the regulations. I don't know which changes you keep referring to, Nosehair.

(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...73198B2CFC80168786256EE100640CCF?OpenDocument

Nosehair, you are correct, an instrument instructor may not provide flight training in an airplane, however, he may provide instrument flight training in an airplane as long as both he and the student are rated in the airplane on their pilot certificates.

The difference is that the FAA refers to flight training and instrument flight training as two seperate types of training, both of which can be conducted in an airplane.

 

[flyinghunter]

I don't pretend to be all knowing, but back to the original question, I did my ratings at ATP and granted it was start to fiinish in 11 days I dind't apply/try to do any flight instructing after my first rating. But I did my CFI-ME, CFI-IA, CFI-SE in that order.