CFII Before CFI ?

[nosehair]

I have only my CFI IA, plenty of instrument sign offs, IPCs given. The DPA FSDO has renewed me every other year based on my pass rate. You can give instruction in an airplane, if not I think that they would have said something by now.

As I said, it is being done all over. That doesn't make it legal according to the regulation. It is being 'accepted" by all the FSDO's and DE's as an "everybody knows" situation.

There is no seperate definition of 'flight training' as opposed to 'instrument flight training' in the regulations relating to instructor limitations.

61.195(b) says you have to have the cat and class on your CFI certificate to conduct flight training in an airplane.
61.195(c) adds the limitation that you must also have an instrument rating on your CFI certificate. It adds this requirement to (b), it does not stand alone in spite of (b). That's how you guys, and most other people read it, because that's how you want to see it.

I know it is being done, so more people saying that they do it doesn't make it legal.

I'll say it again: my only point was to show how regulations can take on a life of their own. If most of the population believes that the day begins at midnight, then that's how it is defined by that population - regardless of when the sun goes down.

I seem to remember some legal opinion on this once; and also that it may be cleared up in the new proposed part 61 rules that are cooking. Anybody hear any progress report on that?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Nosehair,

A CFI-I may give instrument instruction in a SE or ME airplane even if he does not possess the CFI-A or MEI.

By reason of logic, the FAA would not permit the issuance of a CFI-I as the inital instructor certificate. Otherwise, there would have to be a provision which stated that a CFI-A would be required for CFI-I instrument training.

Your suggested reasoning that a CFI-I may only conduct training in a simulator is incorrect. If that were so, no one would be able to get an IFR ticket as only a portion of your training may be conducted in a simulator. The rest would have to take place in an airplane. That would negate your understanding that only a CFI/CFII may conduct training for an instrument rating, which is not the case. If it were, then there would be a stipulation requiring the CFI-I to be in possession of the CFI-A.

The pont here is that you are giving instrument flight training. Not flight training for ME procedures or SE procedures. Once certificated, it is understood that you have demonstrated competency in these operations.

It is only required that one have the SE and ME on their pilot certificate. A CFI rating is in place to train a pilot for a specific PTS, such as the instrument tasks.

Clear?

 

[AC560]

A CFI-I may give instrument instruction in a SE or ME airplane even if he does not possess the CFI-A or MEI.

Can a CFI-I with no other rating give the 3hrs of control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments... for the initial private certificate?

 

[nosehair]

By reason of logic,

I totally understand your logic. It is the very same logic we all applied until the regulation changed.

Now it says, in addition to having the rating on your pilot certificate, that it must be on your flight instructor certificate, also.

Didn't used to say that. I don't know when it changed, but I know this controversy has gone on some time.

When I first got a CFI in 1963, the CFI was category only; CFI - Airplane, CFI - Helicopter, etc.

You could CFI in whatever was on your Commercial.

You didn't have to have an instrument rating to have a commercial or CFI. If you got an instrument rating you could teach instruments - if you got a ME rating, you could teach ME.

Then in '74, I think, they (the FAA) changed the rule to require an instrument instructor rating and a ME instructor rating, seperately.

But, the double-eye was category only. You could still instruct instruments in a multi - even without a ME on your commercial.

But that's not how it reads today, but the mis-understanding throughout the training and certification still responds as though it were still the same as it used to be.

Again, I have not seen a current legal opinion that contradicts the current FAR.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

One strange thing about the CFI-IA, while we say this is OK for teaching instrument only in whatever class of airplane that's on that person's pilot certificate, such an instructor must actually teach more than "instrument" instruction. They must also teach airplane flight instruction. I'm speaking of the circling approach to a landing and in the multiengine area, a CFI-IA does have to teach engine out procedures. That's because those tasks are on the IRA test for those applicants seeking their ratings in airplanes, the single engine work is required if the test is in a twin.

In any event, this is a gray area that apparently causes the FAA Flight Standards folks to look the other way and not ask too many questions. I guess everybody in aviation just likes it the way it is because it works OK.

There are really many things like this, for example: If you really read the certification requirements for the instrument rating (IRA), a person would have to have 43 hours of instrument time logged, 3 for the private pilot (PA) and 40 for the instrument. And for the commercial pilot (CA) who is instrument rated, he/she would need to have 53 hours of instrument time logged, 3 for PA, 40 for the IRA, and 10 more for the CA. The FAA in DCA looked at this one time because that is what the regulations now say, and were going to start enforcing this, but backed off when it appeared they were going to have to recall 1000's of currently issued certificates. It was too disruptive so they just said, let it go. That wasn't the intention in the rewrite of Part 61.

So you see, it is the same thing here, it says what it says, but at least for now, the FAA does not make an issue of this. I expect that in the upcoming new rewrite of Part 61, this will be clarified. I hope it stays the same just so we can continue to have the "Double I only" specialists. They are unique and somewhat of a carryover from the CFI-A days.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Can a CFI-I with no other rating give the 3hrs of control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments... for the initial private certificate?

My understanding is that this will normally be done by the instructor signing off the Private Pilot applicant, therefore it will be the CFI-A who will conduct the 3 hours of hood time. A CFI-I is not necessary for this.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I hope this discussion is more theoretical in nature as most aspiring pilots will get the CFI first anyway. Those that earn the CFI-I first, usually do so with the intent of getting the CFI to follow, as most instructor programs seem to be designed this way.

Someone mentioned that they knew of a CFI-I only who conducted IFR training exclusively. I have to guess that this is very rare to only have the CFI-I certificate.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Someone mentioned that they knew of a CFI-I only who conducted IFR training exclusively. I have to guess that this is very rare to only have the CFI-I certificate.

There are those CFI-IA only people out there. I know several and for whatever reason, they like being CFI-IA's only, They only doing instrument work.

 

[AC560]

My understanding is that this will normally be done by the instructor signing off the Private Pilot applicant, therefore it will be the CFI-A who will conduct the 3 hours of hood time. A CFI-I is not necessary for this.

I get that and the question usually comes up is can you use those 3hrs for qualifying for the instrument rating. The answer is yes if those 3hrs were signed by a CFI-I no if it was just a CFI-A.

My question though is can a CFI-I (with no other instructor ratings) give those 3hrs to a student pilot .

 

[nosehair]

My question though is can a CFI-I (with no other instructor ratings) give those 3hrs to a student pilot .

The nature of your question assumes that a CFI-IA can give instrument training in an aircraft, which is not exactly in accordance with the regulations, but it is being done, so here is my take on that.

Since the nature of the instruction is "control of an aircraft by reference to instruments", I would say that the instructor must have a CFI-Airplane rating.

But the question is moot, since a CFI-IA only cannot, in the strictest interpretation of the reg, give any in-flight instruction.

A CFI-IA can give instrument instruction in a sim. That is why the FAA can issue this CFI-IA only. It can be held alone and worked alone, as long as you stay out of the airplane.

 

[nosehair]

the question usually comes up is can you use those 3hrs for qualifying for the instrument rating. The answer is yes if those 3hrs were signed by a CFI-I no if it was just a CFI-A.

The total instrument hours required for instrument rating is 40 hours instrument (actual or simulated) time. Only 15 of those hours need be with a CFI-IA.
61.65(a)(2)(i)
The other 25 may be with a CFI-A or even with a non-CFI safety pilot.

So, yes, the 3 hours you get as a student do count.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

There are those CFI-IA only people out there. I know several and for whatever reason, they like being CFI-IA's only, They only doing instrument work.

You can't blame them. Teaching instruments is way more fun than the average private pilot curriculum.

 

[AC560]

So, yes, the 3 hours you get as a student do count.

For the 40 but not necessarily the 15. If your instructor for your primary is a CFI-I and endorses your 3hrs as such they do. Sorry if I was unclear.

As to my other question (can a CFI-I teach these 3hrs for private initial) I am actually more interested in a response from the people who think a CFI-I can teach in an airplane with no other CFI rating.

 

[AC560]

As to my other question (can a CFI-I teach these 3hrs for private initial) I am actually more interested in a response from the people who think a CFI-I can teach in an airplane with no other CFI rating.

Anyone?

 

[Daytonaflyer]

I've never seen anything that says you can or cannot use a CFII who does not also have a CFI.
I believe that you could use a CFII as long as he is rated in the category and class of airplane on his pilot certificate, is current, and he has a valid aviation medical certificate.
There is nothing that restricts a CFII to teaching instrument rating students only. It only limits him to teaching instrument flight training.

To be safe, I would consult an FAA authority before paying for this service.