CAL-UAL Anti-RJ Proposal

[waveflyer]

Rod,

If your furloughees aren't back by the time this could possibly begin, you are in bad shape and I wouldn't be applying because you wouldn't be hiring.

It's called logic. Try it for once.

Who guaranteed you a career w/ no furloughs? Or downsizing at your company? Having spent many years at commuters and regionals - I know the risk of leaving is great- but so is the risk of staying in an industry designed to constantly whipsaw you.
I had hundreds of FOs at my regional who had already had long regional or military careers + relatively short major careers all of a sudden slinging fear for me-
that ought to humble you as it did me and tell you that the system is broke-
this is a necessary first step

 

[IAHERJ]

For the record, ASA CR7/9 12 year Captain = $88.29

Yah, shut the place down. HA!

Good luck. Either way I benefit. You get scope, more jobs at the major. You relax scope I have a better career here. Thanks for playing.

That's the problem. You think 89 bucks an hour is good pay and if we cave on scope you deem that you will have a better career at ASA. So short sighted. I'm on 5th year pay at CAL working under a concessionary contract and I just did the math. If I bid reserve October through the rest of the year, my gross will be over $113,000.00 not including the 12.75% B-fund contribution or profit sharing(I do think that # includes per diem). Nothing to brag about for flying a 757/767 for a major airline. It should and will be a lot higher with the new contract. What it shows is that a relatively junior first officer at a major airline hit with a concessionary contract will still make more than a regional captain will unless he/she is a check airman or something or has no life and works like a dog. This was an easy year where I only flew 6 months worth of lines and 6 months of reserve(by choice).

You should want us to move towards all larger RJ flying(70 seats and up) being flown under the mainline contract. It is not going to happen in the next 2 years. In fact, I see a best case scenario looking like an order from UAL for C-series jets seating 80-110 passengers with deliveries beginning a month before a contract for 70 seat flying expires with a regional partner. We will have plenty of time to cost out the hourly rates etc. This will continue over the next 10 years until all large regional jet flying will be done by United pilots in new, fuel efficient C-series jets or Mitsubishi jets with next generation power plants. 50 seat jet flying, albeit on a much smaller scale than today; will continue to be outsourced.

 

[IAHERJ]

By the way, I'm proud of the 50 seat jet flying I did for Continental Express from 2000-2003. I'm more proud of the Brasilia flying I did 1998-2000 as that was true "commuter" flying. I want to see more people flying regional aircraft have the opportunity to fly for the mainline carriers they are feeding today so they can earn more money and enjoy the better lifestyle those jobs bring. Heck, I wish this topic had been addressed a decade ago as I'd have been on a major's seniority list long before 2005 and so would most of you. I have nothing against those flying regional jets. I'd be a complete hypocrite if I did. I just see too many people giving up on the majors and taking a defeatist attitude towards the career which has led, in many cases, to the selfish posts regarding regional jet protection.

 

[waveflyer]

Well said-

and I do feel for them- there have been very few good choices- stay at a regional or leave and stand a great chance of furlough- most competitive rj capts aren't in their mid 20's- try mid 30's - 40's and knowing the right choice for your family is tough-

Best advice is the advice I gave 5 years ago- live on turboprop capt pay- save the extra and get to a major-
guys- this is coming- start saving so you can make your choices freely

 

[ASA Captain]

I support Re-scoping

No one guaranteed me anything. I don't feel entitled to anything. I don't know how you read that into what I posted, but maybe you should try reading it again. I was replying to a jerkwad on the previous page. Of course we did secure a no furlough clause that, at least outside of bankruptcy, protects my job.*****

I am not entitled because I, like you, are lucky to be where we are. The only difference between me and you is an interview. Just like your buddy still at a regional. Just like your buddy that went somewhere else and got sh!t canned because the management of his company did some really stupid things. We are all in this stupid disease of a career field together.*****

I know how to add. My point about me staying is only in response to the "behind all furloughs" arrogance. Of course I would be behind all the furloughs. That is just dumb. No where have I said I should get some sort of seniority deal or even special treatment. Again, if you still have guys on furlough I can't get on with that mainline. Duh! And if you still have people on furlough after 2012 I should be looking elsewhere.*****

Staying at a regional for the next thirty years is not my plan. Never has been. I cap out in seven years. While it is a somewhat respectable wage, I know that it will never compare to almost any mainline. Unfortunately the longer I am here the harder transition, financially, it will be.*****



I will repeat from a prior post. I actually support this move. I think it will cost you a lot more than you might be willing to spend for it. There are quite a few lifers that will not think like I do, but this is where we should be headed.*****

I posted what I make for the record. Whoever thought that I think it is a good rate is ID10T. My rate sucks for a multitude of reasons. After the last 8 years I have seen a 1% payraise. Yes, due to the aforementioned whipsaw issues at the regional level. Also Mesa, Comair, and every sellout that couldn't or wouldn't hold their own.*****


Unfortunately we all have a few tools in our ranks that think the world revolves around them.*****

Again, I support the cause. But, you will have to buy it at the table. Not from me. From Inc. You will have to spend a lot of negotiating capital. You can easily secure the +70 seats yet to be delivered. Re-scoping the existing 50/70 dearer will cost dearly.*****

I understand it is number one polling issue. That makes sense. But with at least five years of negotiations behind my group, I know what it comes down to is money.*****

Realistically, right now there is no precedent, save SWA, for you to "justify" before the NMB mediator re-scoping the RJ. It will be a very hard sell. It may even be a strike issue for you. But, rest assured, the company will fight to keep the status quo and even offer big bucks to buy you out from the issue.*****

Come on, you know the deal by now. The know to divide and conquer. They will offer big $$$$ to persuade a chunk of your group to take the deal. That is just how this works. To deny this is to deny reality.*****

Now if you are just using this as a bargaining chip, then smart tactic indeed.*****

Finally, again, I support this cause. It will not be a smooth ride, but we can navigate through if we remain calm and use our CRM/TRM skills not our "I'm in charge here" attitudes.*****

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Scope is not negotiable this time...get it???!

 

[ASA Captain]

Sorry guppy. It is negotiable because you will have to negotiate to get it. You can strike over it if you ever get released by the NMB, but will have to buy it back. It was taken from you, but you will have to buy it back. That's how this game works.

You can strike over it. Cost the company hundreds of millions of dollars, throw away the rest of your career or you will negotiate for it like everything else.

You can pound it into the keyboard if you like, but you might as well be pounding sand.

Look, I think this should have been done long ago. Oh well. I think it should be done now, but pretending your going to get back years of bankruptcy forced cuts and corporate outsourcing in one fell swoop just because you say so? Get real.

Certainly this can be done over many years as the FFD contracts expire and leases are renewed, but the company know exactly how many millions it saves them paying me peanuts to fly an airplane that should have been at mainline the whole time. We are just a C scale. If you want it back bad enough you will get it, but at what cost. Pay rates. Retirement. Benefits. Schedule improvements. It is all on the table and there is only so many chips to be played.

What I think should happen is our MEC's should talk about this, seriously. I don't want your )$/&;$$; seniority. Get over it. That is not what this is about.

If you really want to solve the issue without buying every ;&($$;$ dime of it, you should meet with the regional MEC's and get them on board. Look, it means better job prospects for most of us. If some old time lifers want to stay that is their choice. They will be flying what is left.

What you should do is work with the MEC's and work towards a common purpose. As the FFD contracts expire the aircraft that get pulled into mainline bring x number of new hire pilots, subject to screening, of course. Kind of a flowthrough, but not exactly.

The reason to get the regionals on board, is we can support this from the bottom. If this gets ugly, and it easily could, there will be some bottom feeders who lowball bid the flying, making it harder and harder for your negotiating team to justify the change.

You can, and probably will, completely ignore my thoughts on the subject. It doesn't matter to me either way. I will eventually get where I am going. I will probably get there the old fashioned way. By the time this could even go through, I could be gone and some other punk kid who is now flying a 150 in the Texas heat will be here to benefit from this change.

I just think we should all set aside the divisive ranker and actually do something that union brothers are supposed to do: work as one.

 

[aviator202]

I believe you when you say scope is non-negotiable...

But it IS negotiable...You CAN get exactly what you want...this being the demise of the regionals...

But the question is....What are you willing to trade/give up/surrender to accomplish this goal?

Based on the enormous compensation differential between mainline and regionals....the answer is compensation....be prepared to surrender/lose/trade roughly 35% at mainline...

Because what devalued the profession was deregulation and low, low, low fares....

The regionals did NOT lower the compensation bar....They allowed mainline compensation to remain vastly higher than it would have been without regionals....they allowed the creation of a "B" scale....and management will get this cost differential....if not from regionals then from mainline

By the way, we all know mainline took pay cuts and furloughs....all of which would have been MUCH more severe had management not cut labor costs via regional expansion...

Remember, there is NO limit to how many pay cuts there ultimately are....

When the regionals are gone....well, mainline will find out that their compensation becomes much like what regional compensation is currently...

Be very careful what you wish for.....

 

[waveflyer]

I think you guys have it backwards-
you're acting like the last decade of concessions and forced scope relief counts for nothing-
we have leverage now- te company will be opening up their wallets- they can pay in the form of scope or $$'s
my bet is a combination of both- but make no mistake- the pilots in this country have sacrificed intensely the last decade-
UAL/cal pilots are not beginning on equal terms with mgmt- both are operating out of bk with concessionary contracts

 

[aviator202]

Waveflyer, I respect your opinions....

Consider this scenario....Regional hostilities are building in the Middle East, specifically....Iran.....Military action is taken, lots of artillery in play....two or three super oil tankers end up on the bottom of the Straits of Hormuz....over 20% of planetary oil is now shut in the Gulf....oil rises to $275/bb....and this continues for 12 months....every single U.S. airline declares bankruptcy....

There are a lot of scenarios that await aviation.....

Pilot leverage is fleeting...

Airline profitability is even more so....

More airlines WILL go bankrupt in the future...

So it goes....

Just saying....

 

[waveflyer]

Right-
and what happens if Bruce Willis doesn't stop that meteor?

 

[aviator202]

LOL!!!!.....Great response!!!!

Probably unlikely....but I was trying to illustrate that if mainline pilots have an advantage or leverage...it is at best very temporary....

Just as it is unlikely that airline profits will remain in an era of dubious economic conditions....

But hey!....Just ASK management to eliminate all regional flying and take everything in house....sure they will, just because mainline pilots are fed up....

As if they care how fed up you all are....

As if you can actually force them to...

As if you are actually willing to put big bucks where your mouth is...

As if mainline pilots could actually pull off a successful strike...

Riiiiiiiiight!!!!

My oil scenario is more likely...lolol!!!

 

[HHH]

Sorry guppy. It is negotiable because you will have to negotiate to get it. You can strike over it if you ever get released by the NMB, but will have to buy it back. It was taken from you, but you will have to buy it back. That's how this game works.

You can strike over it. Cost the company hundreds of millions of dollars, throw away the rest of your career or you will negotiate for it like everything else.

You can pound it into the keyboard if you like, but you might as well be pounding sand.

Look, I think this should have been done long ago. Oh well. I think it should be done now, but pretending your going to get back years of bankruptcy forced cuts and corporate outsourcing in one fell swoop just because you say so? Get real.

Certainly this can be done over many years as the FFD contracts expire and leases are renewed, but the company know exactly how many millions it saves them paying me peanuts to fly an airplane that should have been at mainline the whole time. We are just a C scale. If you want it back bad enough you will get it, but at what cost. Pay rates. Retirement. Benefits. Schedule improvements. It is all on the table and there is only so many chips to be played.

What I think should happen is our MEC's should talk about this, seriously. I don't want your )$/&;$$; seniority. Get over it. That is not what this is about.

If you really want to solve the issue without buying every ;&($$;$ dime of it, you should meet with the regional MEC's and get them on board. Look, it means better job prospects for most of us. If some old time lifers want to stay that is their choice. They will be flying what is left.

What you should do is work with the MEC's and work towards a common purpose. As the FFD contracts expire the aircraft that get pulled into mainline bring x number of new hire pilots, subject to screening, of course. Kind of a flowthrough, but not exactly.

The reason to get the regionals on board, is we can support this from the bottom. If this gets ugly, and it easily could, there will be some bottom feeders who lowball bid the flying, making it harder and harder for your negotiating team to justify the change.

You can, and probably will, completely ignore my thoughts on the subject. It doesn't matter to me either way. I will eventually get where I am going. I will probably get there the old fashioned way. By the time this could even go through, I could be gone and some other punk kid who is now flying a 150 in the Texas heat will be here to benefit from this change.

I just think we should all set aside the divisive ranker and actually do something that union brothers are supposed to do: work as one.

Single seniority list between UAL and its feeders SHOULD NOT and WOULD NOT happen. First, an improved scope must be negotiated. Then UAL hires whoever they want.

Doom and gloom scenarios such as 7000 pilots being suddenly furloughed are unrealistic. This process will take a few years, with the outcome known to everyone.

Regardless, UAL has the right to screen and choose who they hire. Though I believe that many regional pilots are excellent aviators and will make great pilots at UAL - NONE of them are entitled to a free ride to a legacy. There are many other pilots - military, corporate, etc. - that should have a fair chance as well. Regional pilots, particularly from UAL feeders, must interview and compete like everyone else.

 

[ASA Captain]

Why must I repeat myself.....

....subject to screening.......

You guys are so paranoid that someone wants to get in for free.

RTFP.

 

[davessn763]

GOODBYE SPIKED HAIR AND BACKPACKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh--and take your Ipod with you!

Those guys are all at majors now. I saw an "Emo" haircut on a colgan guy the other day, makes me wanna puke!

 

[Jetjockey]

LOL!!!!.....Great response!!!!

Probably unlikely....but I was trying to illustrate that if mainline pilots have an advantage or leverage...it is at best very temporary....

Just as it is unlikely that airline profits will remain in an era of dubious economic conditions....

But hey!....Just ASK management to eliminate all regional flying and take everything in house....sure they will, just because mainline pilots are fed up....

As if they care how fed up you all are....

As if you can actually force them to...

As if you are actually willing to put big bucks where your mouth is...

As if mainline pilots could actually pull off a successful strike...

Riiiiiiiiight!!!!

My oil scenario is more likely...lolol!!!

Looking at your profile, I doubt you have any clue how an airline works. I think your pager is going off for another part 135 charter there Skippy.

Speak of things you know.

 

[aviator202]

Hey Snoopy!!!!

Know the definition of an ad hominem attack?

Yeah, you looked at my profile and decided that is was best to attack me...and not my arguments.

What's wrong?...Not smart enough to mount a convincing reply?

Tell you what Snoopy....Grow up, realize I am smarter than you....and get some help forming a cogent response...

(Read your profile...hahahahhaha.....and you think what I wrote is all there is to me?....hahahahaha)

 

[Jetjockey]

LOL!!!!.....Great response!!!!

Probably unlikely....but I was trying to illustrate that if mainline pilots have an advantage or leverage...it is at best very temporary....

Just as it is unlikely that airline profits will remain in an era of dubious economic conditions....

But hey!....Just ASK management to eliminate all regional flying and take everything in house....sure they will, just because mainline pilots are fed up....

As if they care how fed up you all are....

As if you can actually force them to...

As if you are actually willing to put big bucks where your mouth is...

As if mainline pilots could actually pull off a successful strike...

Riiiiiiiiight!!!!

My oil scenario is more likely...lolol!!!

Lol?? Did you borrow that from your teenage daughter's vernacular?

Like I said, you probably have NO experience in an airline crew environment but will try to explain this as simple as I can for your small IQ.

The combined pilots at UAL/CAL have leverage. If you haven't noticed the pendulum for labor is shifting in our favor. Airline revenue is on the upswing, and once the economy hits full stride with a recovery that revenue picture improves even more. All pilots have given until it hurts, some with their entire careers. Concessions stands are closed. We are getting back what was taken, and then some.

We are NOT asking management, we are telling them. LOUD AND CLEAR what we expect, and will not settle for less.

We will force our issues, we will prevail, and if it comes to a strike I'm ready. You can doubt that all you want. Personally I know management trolls these boards to stir up crap.

Now why don't you enlighten us with your stellar background Mr. Dispatcher. Mine is simple. 26 years of flying with 21 of that flying for airlines. The argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#cite_note-2

 

[aviator202]

News Flash to Snoopy: Charlie Schultz has been dead a looooong time

Sure...Mainline pilots at UAL/CAL have some temporary leverage during the merger....use it well, you won't have another chance for a VERY long time...

Airline revenue and profitability has risen as of late....great! that means it will continue forever and ever, right?....Look out your window Snoopy, the ole U S of A economy is having a real crisis right now....Expect it to affect this industry...These recent profits are fragile....

Yeah, you've taken 'till it hurts.....again, so what?

Take some more....And that's not my view, it's management's

So go ahead, TAKE YOUR FLYING BACK.....but like any business decision, it will COST YOU.....oh something on the order of 35% of your total current
compensation...

Yeah, you are loud.....again, so what?

Life is FULL of unmet expectations....Bet all your ex-wives could attest to that.....lolol

So strike....Remember Eastern?.....Yeah, I do......months and months later one or two guys with signs hanging around the airport.....How'd that work out for you?....Yeah, I thought so......

You'll do what you always do....management will wave big bucks or a pension plan under the senior guys snoots....with a promise of bigger airplanes.....and you'll all fold like a cheap suit....

Just remember.....the regionals were the safety valve for mainline pilots.....your compensation got to stay much, much higher.....because regional pilots were much, much lower....when they are gone and can't take the heat for you.....well now, expect to take it in the shorts...

I am so impressed with your 26 years of nose riding and breathing kerosene fumes....gee golly whiz.....

Seeeee, I can be just as snide as you.....

Look, hothead.....settle down and rationally debate.....remember your blood pressure, you have a medical due.....wouldn't want to flunk it

 

[FLYLOW22]

Those guys are all at majors now. I saw an "Emo" haircut on a colgan guy the other day, makes me wanna puke!

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://emoboy.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/emo_hairstyle.jpg&imgrefurl=http://emoboy.net/2010/07/05/july-5th-emo-boy-pics/&usg=__-sRgEB1fas8WIqphSw4yurOjD30=&h=450&w=600&sz=78&hl=en&start=11&sig2=V0wOkfg_lFCJphLV1r4FTQ&zoom=1&tbnid=JDyBsTuyDISTuM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&ei=YEB9TJSqB6i1nAfsipDzDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Demo%2Bboy%2Bhaircut%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D657%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1


Not sure but I think I'd kneel down on the ground, let you push him over on the terminal floor and then we'd pretty much take terms kicking him in his non-existent boy grapes if I every saw that on a pilot in uniform.

Yeah. I would.

That haircut just screams Code Red.