CAL-UAL Anti-RJ Proposal

[waveflyer]

ARROGANT???? Elated to have rjs go to the majors? Really? Think about it those guys who have all their weekends off making about 80k as a 10 year rj captain....a lot of em not just 5%. Now they all go to the bottom and go to first year pay. Sorry dude arrogant, realistic, optimistic you call it whatever you want. I've seen 4000 plus mainline pilots get the hell beat out of em with furloughs at the expense of ALP while outsourced to pilots who will take low wages just to fly a shiny little jet with no experience, and then there is mgmt. Time to put it back on mainline property PERIOD! This is the only time we have to put this stuff back on mainline. I don't care how many RJ jobs it costs. This career is NOT about regionals its about the MAJORS.

That's really funny since the word I used was "ignorant"
haha-

yes, a vast majority-
what exactly is your background?
The best RJ job has erratic scheduling at best. Even when super senior- you're never guaranteed a great schedule.
So what percentage number would you feel more comfortable with? Every FO would support it- plus a vast majority of capts are biding their time for majors to start hiring.
Working at a regional- most know since ACA, and Wisconsin- and all the transfering of flying around- building up one operator to shrink another, then reversing it- that it's a roller coaster that is never secure.

Outsourcing has NOT benefitted young pilots- only delayed their chance to get to a major- and possibly caused a furlough or two for the middle aged pilots

 

[onewithwings]

PLEASE refer to the terms af agreement you signed before becoming a member of the BB. DO NOT use personal info on this board! :smash:

 

[wmuflyguy]

I completely agree, but I also think this movement won't die anytime soon. Polls at CAL have indicated that scope is the number 1 issue far and above compensation. The union has said they won't budge on scope at all. The United folks have learned a tough and valuable lesson about outsourcing and I serious doubt that they'll make the same mistake again. They're even more fired up than CAL people are. They wouldn't have 1400 pilots on furlough and probably have a few more thousand pilots on the list. If we relax scope, it's over. They can have all the crj's they want, but mainline operates them with mainline pilots. I think enough people are pissed off and educated to move this along. So would I be concerned at a regional right now? Yep........

I guess the reason I'm not concerned is that why taking back the 50+ seat market will lead to layoffs (most likely including myself) with relatively few 50+ seat aircraft out there (compared to 50's). I think (so take it for what its worth) that with the 50+ seat aircraft at mainline, the number of 50+ seat a/c will not be limited (arbitrarily) like they are now by scope...probably leading to significantly more 50+ seat planes being ordered and flying than their are now, leading to more jobs.

There will still be a market for 50 seaters, albeit down from the number their are now, but still a need.



Short term pain for a long term positive results. I'd be worried if I lived paycheck to paycheck and lived outside my means, in this career that is playing with fire.

 

[UALjan15]

What happens to all the ALPA regional pilots that lose jobs because of progressive scope changes. These pilots must have a place at the table. An abbreviated yet fair process to get them jobs at ML.

Same thing that happened to me when they took my flying away back in '03--furlough. And no, I'm not that concerned with their place at the "table." ML will need more pilots, they'll hire the regional Capts like it used to be, and then your precious RJ FOs can return to their jobs, only this time it won't be to a dead end career.

Under the current model, the regionals are the future of the Air Line Pilot profession.

Well Rez, I have absolutely no problem changing the "current model."

 

[David Clark]

Polls at CAL have indicated that scope is the number 1 issue far and above compensation.

I'd like to see these polls. Post 'em.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez=
really?
For years some of the posts you make drive me to think you're a management tool dressing yourself up online as a union guy. You MUST support this.

I've re-read my post... and I don't see what you are getting at... you'll have to be specific...

Same thing that happened to me when they took my flying away back in '03--furlough. And no, I'm not that concerned with their place at the "table." ML will need more pilots, they'll hire the regional Capts like it used to be, and then your precious RJ FOs can return to their jobs, only this time it won't be to a dead end career.

to me... the past is in the past... what we do in the future defines who we are....

Well Rez, I have absolutely no problem changing the "current model."

neither do I... but the regional pilots have a place at the table... they are not fodder or nor are they expendable....

 

[Flopgut]

This is about as un-anti RJ as you can get. Bad title for the thread. BTW: Scope is number 1 at CAL among the majority of the pilots. That's why Jay is handling it like he is.

 

[whatitdoing?]

I guess the reason I'm not concerned is that why taking back the 50+ seat market will lead to layoffs (most likely including myself) with relatively few 50+ seat aircraft out there (compared to 50's). I think (so take it for what its worth) that with the 50+ seat aircraft at mainline, the number of 50+ seat a/c will not be limited (arbitrarily) like they are now by scope...probably leading to significantly more 50+ seat planes being ordered and flying than their are now, leading to more jobs.

There will still be a market for 50 seaters, albeit down from the number their are now, but still a need.



Short term pain for a long term positive results. I'd be worried if I lived paycheck to paycheck and lived outside my means, in this career that is playing with fire.

I agree with you on most of your points besides one. The 50 seater, whether it's ERJ or CRJ or whatever, is over. The CASM for a 50 seater doesn't justify their existence. The majors are looking at this closely and love the 70 seat plus CRJ's or ERJ's. The question is, who will fly them. With this merger, CAL/UAL pilots have the chance to bring back that flying. Will we have to give something up? Probably, but who knows. I'm willing to do that and then some because I know long term it'll be the best decision. Other majors will follow suit and before you know it, the industry has changed again. Is there a market for 50 seaters? Sure, probably in freight or South American, Asian, Middle East flying. But on a passenger based, revenue number crunching management type, they're history. I've talked to several reps and members on the negotiating committee along with the merger committee and everyone is talking about scope and the need to not budge. Hopefully this all works out.

 

[Ex737Driver]

This is about as un-anti RJ as you can get. Bad title for the thread. BTW: Scope is number 1 at CAL among the majority of the pilots. That's why Jay is handling it like he is.

Jay has said this before and I'm quite sure it's still his stance;

SCOPE IS A STRIKEABLE ITEM!!!

 

[Lear70]

WARNING: The original post talking about USAPA being behind both pilot groups is just BARELY within the original scope of our warning to NOT turn other threads into USAPA/East/West threads.

I understand you weren't trying to incite that kind of discussion, however, you HAD to know that others would take offense at the inference (as the next poster in line did) and turn it into one.

If you want to wish someone luck from your COMPANY, do so. Don't turn this into a political agenda that has nothing to do with the East/West debate or you'll get kicked straight into the penalty box.

This has to be the third time this week I've had to give this warning. Next person to bring up USAPA in here gets 7 days in the penalty box. Period. Even if it's used benignly... Knock it off.

 

[fracpt]

frac pilot turned airline. I was also once a laker. so with this all said I hope all the flying gets to the mainlines over a few year period to help the industry ( all of us as a whole) to regain what was once ours. pay and quality of life. Amen to the entire industry if we get rid of the RJ. This will once again be a career that is respected if we all stand together and get the flying back to the mainline. sincerely SWA pilot now

 

[Tomct]

Good Luck guys. DAL opened "Pandora's Box" and hopefully UAL can close it. The reason I say that is...they were too good to fly the 50 seat jet and thus...the Regional Empire. Speaking as a former Regional guy, I wanted to get out of there and move on..so good luck to making this change.

 

[ASA Captain]

There is one point missing. Mgmnt ain't gonna let this fly. You know why? Longevity.

It has taken me over ten years at a regional to get even in the neighborhood of 100k. If I go to mainline I get a nice little financial reset. I start over in longevity so by the time I upgrade, I am only a 8-10 year pay captain. If this went through, by the time I will upgrade on the same equipment I will be a 15-18 year captain with corresponding pay.

There is a big reason we exist. Money. Y'all at CAL/UAL will have to buy this with your hard earned money.

I think is a noble cause. A few years late, and under the guns of bankruptcy court forced upon you, but late none the less.

How much are you willing to spend to buy those jobs back? I have a sneaking suspicion that the 30% pay hit y'all took is more of a real issue. The ire of the fire might be scope because of all those pesky little RJs taxiing past, but when it comes to negotiating for pay, there will be far more dollar signs in your eyes than that 30k job that you don't need anyways.

Good luck.

 

[contrail67]

100 seaters are coming to UAL...and those planes will be flown by United pilots. This has alot to do with it.

United passengers deserve United Pilots.

 

[AWACoff]

There is one point missing. Mgmnt ain't gonna let this fly. You know why? Longevity.

It has taken me over ten years at a regional to get even in the neighborhood of 100k. If I go to mainline I get a nice little financial reset. I start over in longevity so by the time I upgrade, I am only a 8-10 year pay captain. If this went through, by the time I will upgrade on the same equipment I will be a 15-18 year captain with corresponding pay.

There is a big reason we exist. Money. Y'all at CAL/UAL will have to buy this with your hard earned money.

I think is a noble cause. A few years late, and under the guns of bankruptcy court forced upon you, but late none the less.

How much are you willing to spend to buy those jobs back? I have a sneaking suspicion that the 30% pay hit y'all took is more of a real issue. The ire of the fire might be scope because of all those pesky little RJs taxiing past, but when it comes to negotiating for pay, there will be far more dollar signs in your eyes than that 30k job that you don't need anyways.

Good luck.

We are not willing to give a regional pilot one thin dime. You have gladly taken jobs that have resulted from mainline furloughs. You will now have to deal with the consequences of flying for a subcontractor. You can stop dreaming about scope (read: OUTSOURCING) relaxation. Feel free to apply at the mainline carrier of your choice and take the pay hit like WE all did.

 

[CLARKGRSWOLD]

was it not the big bad mainline pilots, that allowed all of these RJ'S ???? You all walk around and look at us like we just showed up overnight and took "your jobs" You all voted for this ********************. Was it not UAL that parked all your 737s ?

Scope, I bet not one pilot over 55 gives a rats ass about scope, SHOW ME THE MONEY " They want to get theirs and get out. When it comes right down to it, you all will once again cave and the cycle will continue. But please don't blame us RJ's pilots for your ********************ty QOL

 

[ASA Captain]

Oh stuff it. I am not looking for one damn dime. RTFP.

I am talking about the fact that the company will not give up the savings from me taking a pay and benefits hit when I go from regional to major.

It is your fight. I don't have a say at the table so it really doesn't matter that you think I took a job from a furlough. I didn't. I started in '99, well before the furloughs started.

I am not looking for any dime of yours. My point was that the current setup creates a longevity hit that benefits the company.

Even if you succeed in acquiring scope constraints, I have nothing to fear. There will be more jobs at mainline. I am not against this move. I think you need to be realistic and prepare yourselves for the fight ahead.

 

[aviator202]

Well now....I bet you can get the scope you all crave....but you will all have to trade for it....and the trade that management will want will be across the board paycuts at mainline....

Considering the savings regionals bring to mainline....probably 35% paycuts across the board from CPTs and FOs will probably get every single RJ parked and all flying returned to mainline...

Do you really think management will give you what you want without a trade?...

What are you going to do? Strike?.....Oh yeah, the mainline strike track record is really inspiring. History gives no support to that theory.

Seriously, do you think just asking and/or sheer determination will carry the day?.....Nope, you are going to have to buy it....

And you CAN.....Go for it!!!.....But it will require mainline compensation to much more closely resemble regional compensation....

Remember.....Mainline ALPA refused to have a "B" scale.....Management absolutely wanted a "B" scale.....Voila, the regionals were born and grew.....

Just saying......

 

[waveflyer]

They already got the paycuts- outsourcing is a public perception nightmare and we should use that.

 

[aviator202]

Respectfully, if you wanna get rid of the regionals.....you gotta be more like them...........huge paycuts.....

And yeah, mainline took paycuts....so what?....there is NO limit to how many paycuts you can have.....

Mainline pilots have much better compensation because regional pilots have much worse compensation....

I know, I know....you guys think the regionals have dragged down your pay....nope, they haven't.....their pitiful compensation has allowed mainline's to stay high....

Once they are gone....Mainline WILL get the axe

Remember, the enemy is fares that are too low.....