CAL-UAL Anti-RJ Proposal

[skywdriver]

As a regional pilot, I am appalled at how much vindictiveness seems to be out there.

News flash: I don't use a backpack except when out hiking, I don't use hair gel, my shoes are always shined and my shirt always pressed, and I didn't dream of flying an RJ for $40 an hour when I was growing up. I was in high school when the pilots at the majors deemed the "Barbie Jet" too insignificant to fly themselves. If I could have gotten on at a major with 500 or 1000 hours like pilots did in the 90's, I would have done so gladly. Post 911, I was competing with 10,000 hour ATPs for right seat corporate and TP cargo outfits. Getting hired at Great Lakes was an accomplishment then (!) Sorry I didn't decide take the sacrifice some of you guys are alluding to and sit out the regionals in blind hopes that just towing banners and instructing would get me to where I wanted to be eventually.

I have always wanted to get on at a major carrier. I am, however, very very tired and wary of this attitude that I, the EVIL REGIONAL PILOT am somehow the enemy. Your management, with their golden parachutes and their penthouse offices, they are the enemy. The public, who don't care if they're treated like slime and packed like sardines as long as the ticket was $5 cheaper, they are the enemy. We as pilots in general are losing the PR battle while squabbling over "my flying". Sully had the golden moment, the center stage and the public support to point to his (entire) crew's actions and saying "See, this is why we should be properly compensated and respected! Not just for the thousands of times passengers arrive safely EVERY DAY but also for the few times your life might seriously be in jeopardy and we do what we are trained to do." Instead he thumped his chest and maligned regional pilots. Repeatedly. My problem with him is not his suggestion that the public pay more for more experience, I'm all for it. My problem is his overt message is that somehow the only skilled pilots are at mainline. And that ALL pilots at mainline carriers are so skilled. We ALL know that's not the truth.

Do I wish things were different in this industry? Of course I do! I'll say it again, I DO NOT WANT MY CAREER TO BE AT THE REGIONALS. This is supposed to be a stepping stone. It seems to me, however, that the same "pull up the ladder now that I've got mine" mentality that led to 65 exists here. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly support this if it were actually about making the entire pilot profession stronger, but it's not, as evidenced by the "F the regional pilots" statements here. More than anything else, I wish your managements at AA, Delta, CAL, USAir, and United could figure out a way to actually MAKE MONEY so that they didn't have to outsource, but supply and demand, low barriers to entry in the marketplace, the ability to grease palms at the FAA and cut corners with MX (Southwest) and training (Colgan) and your own overall bloated cost structures, starting at the top with the (mis)management have made it difficult or near impossible over the last, oh, THIRTY YEARS since de-regulation. I feel like nobody else out there took basic economics. What is saddest is that CAL ALPA feel like they can now make the argument that their pay is so low that they can compete with regionals in terms of crew costs... BUT it's not just about the pilot pay. And in a perfect world, there would be no ValueJets, RyanAirs, Southwests, Skybuses, and we could all be protected professionals in a guild and our companies could all charge what it actually costs to provide the level of service we offer. But it's not a perfect world, and wishing won't make it so. So please stop acting like 50 seat scope and bringing the RJ's to mainline will be your panacea.

I am copying my response to another post as it applies here as well. You make some very good points about who the enemy is. I completely agree with you on that, however it just so happens that the changes that need to be made may negatively affect anyone who was planning on spending their career at the regionals.

While there may be some folks out there that are speaking only out of hostility towards the regional industry, I think most are just speaking realistically about where the industry might be headed. The regional industry could see some very very big changes if our next contract caps scope and then slowly pulls it back down. That is just a fact, and when the facts hurt, so be it. The regional industry for the most part (not all of course) has seen pretty solid movement in the positive direction over the past 8 years. It may be a tough wakeup call for them that they also are not immune to the downside of this industry as a whole. I don't wish anything bad for the pilots of these companies, but if it is the difference between them doing CAL/UAL flying, or CAL and UAL pilots doing that flying, that is a no-brainer.

I did take economics, in fact I got my degree in finance. It is supply and demand that back up my statement. True supply and demand doesn't exist due to scope clauses, and thank goodness for all of us that it does not. I am simply saying that if the regionals are no longer able to supply the type of flying that is in demand due to scope restrictions, things are going to change. I would love to see you at CAL/UAL rather than your current airline, building a career that might actually pay you somewhat what you deserve. We have a long fight ahead to restore the pay in addition to fixing scope.

The companies producing the newest "regional" jets are building 90-110 seat airplanes. Those are going to be the hot commodity, and they need to be flown at mainline. There will always be some market for the 50 seat airplanes, but I think a good deal of the 70+ seat flying will be done in the newest small jets as their operating costs will probably be as cheap as the current airplanes. This will most certainly be a game changer if scope does not allow this flying to be done at the regionals. I very much hope you get your chance to make the jump, I think you will find the quality of life, even under the crappy contract that we have now, to be much better. Things in terms of our contract can and will only get better. Best of luck!

 

[skywdriver]

Fine. Scope is where it's at. For argument's sake, will you also negotiate an end to code share? Having a 70-100 seat jet rate means nothing if your management can turn around and say, code share your domestic flying with Republic/Frontier?

If scope gets fixed at all the mainline carriers, and you can bet Delta and American will come after any scope improvements that we get, there won't be any regional flying in these big airplanes to codeshare with. That means the regionals either revert back to the true "regional" service they used to provide, feeding hubs from smaller markets on short haul trips, or that they go out on their own and try to compete against the legacy carriers. My personal opinion is that they would not be wise to try this. Two have already failed at this, and as mergers create bigger and bigger airlines, I think it would be very difficult for a regional airline to shift into a totally difference business model than what they are used to and be able to compete.

Since Frontier is a stand-alone carrier, that is a different story. I don't really know if that might be a way around all of this for management, but my guess is that the new scope clauses will address this issue with limitations.

 

[FR8dognit]

"F. CODESHARING
1. General
Flying pursuant to a Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreement is only permitted so long as the
requirements of this Agreement are satisfied.
The Company and the Association recognize the primary goal of a Codeshare Agreement
and/or Marketing Agreement is the continued growth of SWA and the SWA Master Pilot
Seniority List by providing passenger feed to Company flights and to establish, maintain,
and/or enhance the Company’s overall market presence.
a. Flying conducted under the terms of a Codeshare Agreement and/or Marketing
Agreement by non-Company pilots shall not be performed on aircraft owned, leased,
Page 1-4
Section 1: Purpose of Agreement
operated, held on order or held on option by the Company or its Affiliates.
b. Revenue Guarantee: Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreements shall not include revenue
guarantees by SWA for the benefit of a Codeshare partner such as block space or cost
plus arrangements. Any exceptions to this restriction must first be discussed with and
agreed to by the Association.
c. Investment: Investment in a Codeshare partner by the Company shall not be used to
establish a de facto subsidiary or alter ego carrier in circumvention of the intent and
purpose of the Scope and Recognition provisions in Section 1.A. and 1.B.
d. Assistance: If the Company provides financial assistance and/or goods and/or services to
a Codeshare partner, the Company shall charge the Codeshare partner at no less than
prevailing market/industry rates for such assistance and/or goods and/or services. Any
exceptions to these restrictions must first be discussed with and agreed to by the
Association.
e. Furlough: There shall be no furlough of any pilot on the SWA Master Pilot Seniority List
as a result of any Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreement.
2. Domestic Codeshare
Southwest Airlines will not enter into a domestic Codeshare Agreement within the fifty (50)
United States without the agreement of the Association.
3. Codeshare for Regional Aircraft Flying
Southwest Airlines will not enter into any domestic or trans-border code share agreement
with a regional carrier or involving a regional aircraft except to provide inter-island service
within the Hawaiian Islands or inter-island service within the Caribbean Islands.
4. Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare
a. Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare will be defined exclusively as Codeshare
flights that include a trans-border segment between Canada, Mexico or the Caribbean and
a SWA city in the continental United States.
b. The combined total trans-border segment ASMs flown by SWA Near
International/Trans-Border Codeshare partners pursuant to Near International/Trans-
Border Agreements with SWA shall not exceed a total of four (4) percent of the total
ASMs flown by SWA in the previous calendar year, excluding ASMs flown by SWA on
Near International/Trans-Border flights, as measured on a one for one ASM basis, to
include each common city pair.
i. The measure of SWA ASMs will be calculated using the ASMs reported in the
SWA annual report unless another method is mutually agreed upon by SWA and
SWAPA.
Page 1-5
Section 1: Purpose of Agreement
5. Other Codeshare
The Company will not enter into any other Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreement (to
include far international Codeshare flying) unless expressly delineated above, without the
agreement of the Association.
6. Distribution Agreements
a. The Company may distribute, via its website or other means, other carriers’ flights to and
from Hawaii and international cities that in no way purport to be flown by the Company.
b. The Company will not engage in the distribution, via its website or other means, of other
carriers’ flights on domestic routes, for the duration of this Agreement. The parties will
then readdress this issue.
7. Communication
The Company agrees to meet and confer with the Association in a timely fashion regarding
any proposed Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreement or Distribution Agreement or changes
to any existing Agreement prior to concluding and implementing any such Agreement or
change. The Company will provide the Association, in a timely manner, a final draft of any
Codeshare Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), agreement, or amendment prior to
signing and will, upon request, meet and confer with the Association regarding same.
The Company agrees to demonstrate to SWAPA that any Codeshare and/or Marketing
Agreement is not being used as a substitute for Company B737 aircraft growth.
G. CABOTAGE
The Company shall not allow its code to be used on flights of foreign carriers carrying local
revenue passengers or cargo traffic between airports within the United States or its territories."

This is what ours looks like....y'all go get em'. Nothing against the regional guys, but it would help everyone.

 

[ASA Captain]

Rod,

If your furloughees aren't back by the time this could possibly begin, you are in bad shape and I wouldn't be applying because you wouldn't be hiring.

It's called logic. Try it for once.

 

[FLYLOW22]

For the record, ASA CR7/9 12 year Captain = $88.29

Yah, shut the place down. HA!

Good luck. Either way I benefit. You get scope, more jobs at the major. You relax scope I have a better career here. Thanks for playing.

88 bucks an hour is right seater at year 2 pay. Good luck!!

 

[waveflyer]

Rod,

If your furloughees aren't back by the time this could possibly begin, you are in bad shape and I wouldn't be applying because you wouldn't be hiring.

It's called logic. Try it for once.

Who guaranteed you a career w/ no furloughs? Or downsizing at your company? Having spent many years at commuters and regionals - I know the risk of leaving is great- but so is the risk of staying in an industry designed to constantly whipsaw you.
I had hundreds of FOs at my regional who had already had long regional or military careers + relatively short major careers all of a sudden slinging fear for me-
that ought to humble you as it did me and tell you that the system is broke-
this is a necessary first step

 

[IAHERJ]

For the record, ASA CR7/9 12 year Captain = $88.29

Yah, shut the place down. HA!

Good luck. Either way I benefit. You get scope, more jobs at the major. You relax scope I have a better career here. Thanks for playing.

That's the problem. You think 89 bucks an hour is good pay and if we cave on scope you deem that you will have a better career at ASA. So short sighted. I'm on 5th year pay at CAL working under a concessionary contract and I just did the math. If I bid reserve October through the rest of the year, my gross will be over $113,000.00 not including the 12.75% B-fund contribution or profit sharing(I do think that # includes per diem). Nothing to brag about for flying a 757/767 for a major airline. It should and will be a lot higher with the new contract. What it shows is that a relatively junior first officer at a major airline hit with a concessionary contract will still make more than a regional captain will unless he/she is a check airman or something or has no life and works like a dog. This was an easy year where I only flew 6 months worth of lines and 6 months of reserve(by choice).

You should want us to move towards all larger RJ flying(70 seats and up) being flown under the mainline contract. It is not going to happen in the next 2 years. In fact, I see a best case scenario looking like an order from UAL for C-series jets seating 80-110 passengers with deliveries beginning a month before a contract for 70 seat flying expires with a regional partner. We will have plenty of time to cost out the hourly rates etc. This will continue over the next 10 years until all large regional jet flying will be done by United pilots in new, fuel efficient C-series jets or Mitsubishi jets with next generation power plants. 50 seat jet flying, albeit on a much smaller scale than today; will continue to be outsourced.

 

[IAHERJ]

By the way, I'm proud of the 50 seat jet flying I did for Continental Express from 2000-2003. I'm more proud of the Brasilia flying I did 1998-2000 as that was true "commuter" flying. I want to see more people flying regional aircraft have the opportunity to fly for the mainline carriers they are feeding today so they can earn more money and enjoy the better lifestyle those jobs bring. Heck, I wish this topic had been addressed a decade ago as I'd have been on a major's seniority list long before 2005 and so would most of you. I have nothing against those flying regional jets. I'd be a complete hypocrite if I did. I just see too many people giving up on the majors and taking a defeatist attitude towards the career which has led, in many cases, to the selfish posts regarding regional jet protection.

 

[waveflyer]

Well said-

and I do feel for them- there have been very few good choices- stay at a regional or leave and stand a great chance of furlough- most competitive rj capts aren't in their mid 20's- try mid 30's - 40's and knowing the right choice for your family is tough-

Best advice is the advice I gave 5 years ago- live on turboprop capt pay- save the extra and get to a major-
guys- this is coming- start saving so you can make your choices freely

 

[ASA Captain]

I support Re-scoping

No one guaranteed me anything. I don't feel entitled to anything. I don't know how you read that into what I posted, but maybe you should try reading it again. I was replying to a jerkwad on the previous page. Of course we did secure a no furlough clause that, at least outside of bankruptcy, protects my job.*****

I am not entitled because I, like you, are lucky to be where we are. The only difference between me and you is an interview. Just like your buddy still at a regional. Just like your buddy that went somewhere else and got sh!t canned because the management of his company did some really stupid things. We are all in this stupid disease of a career field together.*****

I know how to add. My point about me staying is only in response to the "behind all furloughs" arrogance. Of course I would be behind all the furloughs. That is just dumb. No where have I said I should get some sort of seniority deal or even special treatment. Again, if you still have guys on furlough I can't get on with that mainline. Duh! And if you still have people on furlough after 2012 I should be looking elsewhere.*****

Staying at a regional for the next thirty years is not my plan. Never has been. I cap out in seven years. While it is a somewhat respectable wage, I know that it will never compare to almost any mainline. Unfortunately the longer I am here the harder transition, financially, it will be.*****



I will repeat from a prior post. I actually support this move. I think it will cost you a lot more than you might be willing to spend for it. There are quite a few lifers that will not think like I do, but this is where we should be headed.*****

I posted what I make for the record. Whoever thought that I think it is a good rate is ID10T. My rate sucks for a multitude of reasons. After the last 8 years I have seen a 1% payraise. Yes, due to the aforementioned whipsaw issues at the regional level. Also Mesa, Comair, and every sellout that couldn't or wouldn't hold their own.*****


Unfortunately we all have a few tools in our ranks that think the world revolves around them.*****

Again, I support the cause. But, you will have to buy it at the table. Not from me. From Inc. You will have to spend a lot of negotiating capital. You can easily secure the +70 seats yet to be delivered. Re-scoping the existing 50/70 dearer will cost dearly.*****

I understand it is number one polling issue. That makes sense. But with at least five years of negotiations behind my group, I know what it comes down to is money.*****

Realistically, right now there is no precedent, save SWA, for you to "justify" before the NMB mediator re-scoping the RJ. It will be a very hard sell. It may even be a strike issue for you. But, rest assured, the company will fight to keep the status quo and even offer big bucks to buy you out from the issue.*****

Come on, you know the deal by now. The know to divide and conquer. They will offer big $$$$ to persuade a chunk of your group to take the deal. That is just how this works. To deny this is to deny reality.*****

Now if you are just using this as a bargaining chip, then smart tactic indeed.*****

Finally, again, I support this cause. It will not be a smooth ride, but we can navigate through if we remain calm and use our CRM/TRM skills not our "I'm in charge here" attitudes.*****

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Scope is not negotiable this time...get it???!

 

[ASA Captain]

Sorry guppy. It is negotiable because you will have to negotiate to get it. You can strike over it if you ever get released by the NMB, but will have to buy it back. It was taken from you, but you will have to buy it back. That's how this game works.

You can strike over it. Cost the company hundreds of millions of dollars, throw away the rest of your career or you will negotiate for it like everything else.

You can pound it into the keyboard if you like, but you might as well be pounding sand.

Look, I think this should have been done long ago. Oh well. I think it should be done now, but pretending your going to get back years of bankruptcy forced cuts and corporate outsourcing in one fell swoop just because you say so? Get real.

Certainly this can be done over many years as the FFD contracts expire and leases are renewed, but the company know exactly how many millions it saves them paying me peanuts to fly an airplane that should have been at mainline the whole time. We are just a C scale. If you want it back bad enough you will get it, but at what cost. Pay rates. Retirement. Benefits. Schedule improvements. It is all on the table and there is only so many chips to be played.

What I think should happen is our MEC's should talk about this, seriously. I don't want your )$/&;$$; seniority. Get over it. That is not what this is about.

If you really want to solve the issue without buying every ;&($$;$ dime of it, you should meet with the regional MEC's and get them on board. Look, it means better job prospects for most of us. If some old time lifers want to stay that is their choice. They will be flying what is left.

What you should do is work with the MEC's and work towards a common purpose. As the FFD contracts expire the aircraft that get pulled into mainline bring x number of new hire pilots, subject to screening, of course. Kind of a flowthrough, but not exactly.

The reason to get the regionals on board, is we can support this from the bottom. If this gets ugly, and it easily could, there will be some bottom feeders who lowball bid the flying, making it harder and harder for your negotiating team to justify the change.

You can, and probably will, completely ignore my thoughts on the subject. It doesn't matter to me either way. I will eventually get where I am going. I will probably get there the old fashioned way. By the time this could even go through, I could be gone and some other punk kid who is now flying a 150 in the Texas heat will be here to benefit from this change.

I just think we should all set aside the divisive ranker and actually do something that union brothers are supposed to do: work as one.

 

[aviator202]

I believe you when you say scope is non-negotiable...

But it IS negotiable...You CAN get exactly what you want...this being the demise of the regionals...

But the question is....What are you willing to trade/give up/surrender to accomplish this goal?

Based on the enormous compensation differential between mainline and regionals....the answer is compensation....be prepared to surrender/lose/trade roughly 35% at mainline...

Because what devalued the profession was deregulation and low, low, low fares....

The regionals did NOT lower the compensation bar....They allowed mainline compensation to remain vastly higher than it would have been without regionals....they allowed the creation of a "B" scale....and management will get this cost differential....if not from regionals then from mainline

By the way, we all know mainline took pay cuts and furloughs....all of which would have been MUCH more severe had management not cut labor costs via regional expansion...

Remember, there is NO limit to how many pay cuts there ultimately are....

When the regionals are gone....well, mainline will find out that their compensation becomes much like what regional compensation is currently...

Be very careful what you wish for.....

 

[waveflyer]

I think you guys have it backwards-
you're acting like the last decade of concessions and forced scope relief counts for nothing-
we have leverage now- te company will be opening up their wallets- they can pay in the form of scope or $$'s
my bet is a combination of both- but make no mistake- the pilots in this country have sacrificed intensely the last decade-
UAL/cal pilots are not beginning on equal terms with mgmt- both are operating out of bk with concessionary contracts

 

[aviator202]

Waveflyer, I respect your opinions....

Consider this scenario....Regional hostilities are building in the Middle East, specifically....Iran.....Military action is taken, lots of artillery in play....two or three super oil tankers end up on the bottom of the Straits of Hormuz....over 20% of planetary oil is now shut in the Gulf....oil rises to $275/bb....and this continues for 12 months....every single U.S. airline declares bankruptcy....

There are a lot of scenarios that await aviation.....

Pilot leverage is fleeting...

Airline profitability is even more so....

More airlines WILL go bankrupt in the future...

So it goes....

Just saying....