Bye Bye Woerthless

[soardtk]

How does the election for ALPA president work? Do all ALPA members vote or does only the BOD do the actual voting, supposedly representing their members?

Starts with the LEC meetings where you nominate LEC reps then vote them into the MEC. Your choice of reps now become BOD members who vote for national officers. That is why it is so important to be involved at your LEC level.

 

[Lear70]

That is kind of funny... Rez has been VERY active in a thread defending ALPA in the last 48 hours, but hasn't said ANYTHING here...?

Heh heh... pretty funny stuff right thar!

Incidentally, Prater talks a tough line about "returning to the hard-nose tactics" of yester-year, and I like it, but we'll see if he walks the walk.

At least it'll be different than the same ol' same ol'.

 

[hoover]

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

 

[Palomino]

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

ok. i'll fire a shot. this is the most poorly thought out statement i have ever seen on here. settle for mediocrity in the face of soaring industry profits? i don't think so.

the industry sustained excellent wages during United & Delta's victorious contracts. if you will recall the entire free world changed shortly thereafter.

why should i strive for modest gains while the lawyers and the company brass drop in for a few months and pillage the place? the pilots have made the largest commitment to the company and should be rewarded in return.

if we ask for modest gains then that's the baseline that they will steal from when they can't figure out how to make money in a booming industry. not my problem.

i know what i'm worth and it's a heckuva lot more than your philosophy.

 

[Spiritflight]

...Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

The Mesaba guys settled for "modest gains" in their own contract in January of 2004. How well did that work out for them???

 

[Tank]

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

Sounds like a DP statement!!

 

[Lear70]

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

If you insist.

BULLSH*T. The thinking that has to STOP is this "live to fight another day" mantra. This is the most assinine thing I've seen in the face of how our industry has changed.

You're absolutely right, DAL, UAL, and other carriers took HUGE hits over their equally-large increases in their last non-bankruptcy contract (which, by the way, is coming up on being almost a DECADE old).

So why should they go for MODEST gains when they are making LESS NOW than they were BEFORE THE BIG CONTRACT GAINS OF THE LATE 90'S??!!

In other words, the next contracts should simply say: "We want pay and QOL raises to put us where we WOULD have been NOW if we had simply kept our contract from the mid-80's and adjust for COLA and longevity."

These companies are PROFITABLE. It's time for them to share the wealth and put pilots back where we belong in terms of pay and QOL.

"MODEST" gains isn't going to cut it. Share the wealth or shut down. I've started over 4 times, one more isn't going to hurt me all that much.

 

[XJohXJ]

The Mesaba guys settled for "modest gains" in their own contract in January of 2004. How well did that work out for them???

Just worth repeating. Our contract as it is NOW, prior to any possible concessions, is inadequate! We need enhancements, not concessions.

 

[hoover]

The industry is in the shape it is in, because labor keeps trying to return it back to the days before 1978, in terms of pay and work rules. You get big raises, but in your mind that just makes up for the concessions that took place as a result of the need to control/reduce costs after deregulation.

Then you take another concession, so the next time around you ask for an even bigger raise, then another round of concessions, followed by another round of even bigger raises.

Airlines make huge profits, then turn around and post huge losses. At the end of the day the net increase is minimal or none. Warren Buffett said it. The airlines have historically never made money. This is in part because of your attitude towards the concessions.

Where does it end? It ends up in bankruptcy and shutdown, when the cash runs out. Look at the number of airlines out there today vs the number there were 30 years ago. There were dozens of good carriers out there. But competiton became so fierce that they kept failing or merging, to the point where we have barely half a dozen carriers that mean anything. That number will continue to shrink.

The only way it will ever turn around permanently is when everyone gets it in their heads that they have to move forward...modestly.

The irony here is that there are probably very few of you left flying who actually remember the "good old days". Most of you were hired on post-1978, as a result of the job opportunities that were created by the very concessions you are now trying to undo.

And you actually have the nerve to get mad at the guys who sign on to fly RJ's for 1/3rd of the pay. Why? They are just doing the same thing you did 20 years ago. What choice do they have? It's not like there are good jobs out there to go to. You made sure of that.

In the end I don't really care. Just keep selling tickets for $99.

 

[Lear70]

The industry is in the shape it is in, because labor keeps trying to return it back to the days before 1978, in terms of pay and work rules. You get big raises, but in your mind that just makes up for the concessions that took place as a result of the need to control/reduce costs after deregulation.

You're absolutely right about that. The large raises DO make up for the concessions that were taken.

You're wrong about the need to control/reduce costs after deregulation.

Costs were just fine until management started taking more and more of the pie while, at the same time, reducing fares in an attempt to undercut the next guy to fill more airplanes while growing at an absurdly high rate. Or do you not remember the expansion that took place in the late 70's / early 80's?

Do you remember management salary increases? Take a look, it's eye-watering how much they've increased while our compensation has steadily decreased in equivalent dollars...

Then you take another concession, so the next time around you ask for an even bigger raise, then another round of concessions, followed by another round of even bigger raises.

You're correct, that cycle isn't healthy. Start with where we were 20 years ago, add COLA and longevity, and cap it as a BASE starting point. "THIS salary, and NO lower." For EVERY SINGLE ALPA CARRIER.

If the airline can't afford it, they shut down. If an INDIVIDUAL ALPA carrier is able to negotiate more, so be it. But there MUST be a MINIMUM wage base established.

Incidentally, if you haven't noticed, the concessions are always more than the raises, when inflation is taken into account. Go do the math.

Airlines make huge profits, then turn around and post huge losses. At the end of the day the net increase is minimal or none. Warren Buffett said it. The airlines have historically never made money. This is in part because of your attitude towards the concessions.

That's the biggest load of horsesh*t I've ever heard from you. Buffet is right, but labor doesn't have sh*t to do with it and you should know better.

Pilot labor costs are an EXTREMELY small part of the puzzle. Pilot labor costs have NEVER been the "make or break" of ANY airline. Fuel costs, aircraft lease rates, efficiency, and profit margin (which is a result of all of the prior) have ALWAYS been the problem and always will be.

Ticket prices are the main concern right now since the cost of oil has receded somewhat, and those are coming up, too, and GUESS WHAT? Airlines are now posting a PROFIT since the ticket prices are going up. Imagine fu*king that!

SHAME on you for pointing the finger of blame at the pilots. Again, guess what? Everyone else here knows better.

Where does it end? It ends up in bankruptcy and shutdown, when the cash runs out.

That's exactly right. Sink or swim, THAT'S how deregulation was SUPPOSED to work, instead of all the bailouts after the CEO's take their golden parachtes and jump.

Look at the number of airlines out there today vs the number there were 30 years ago. There were dozens of good carriers out there. But competiton became so fierce that they kept failing or merging, to the point where we have barely half a dozen carriers that mean anything. That number will continue to shrink.

Yes, they probably will. That's a result of deregulation and the airline's practice of competing with fares instead of better service/schedule, NOT of labor rates.

The only way it will ever turn around permanently is when everyone gets it in their heads that they have to move forward...modestly.

That's airline management's job. Make the airline profitable and grow... modestly. Unfortunately that's not how you make money with an airline. You make money off stock options, making the company look like it has a golden future, watching the stock double and tripple, cashing out, then running. Until THAT pattern stops, we will continue to see profit/bankruptcy/profit/bankruptcy. THAT'S the cycle YOU need to understand needs to be broken.

The irony here is that there are probably very few of you left flying who actually remember the "good old days". Most of you were hired on post-1978, as a result of the job opportunities that were created by the very concessions you are now trying to undo.

Whoa whoa whoa, wait a second. Are you trying to say age 60 attrition has nothing to do with it? That growth is the SOLE means of the openings going on at the majors and that's due to CONCESSIONS?

ARE YOU FU*KING SH*TTING ME WITH THIS? You need to pass some of that stuff you're smokin', cause it's obviously REALLY good...

*hint* Growth doesn't have jack crap to do with concessions, it has everything to do with the larger profit margin created by lower lease rates, lower oil cost, and increased ticket sales. Again, pilot labor rates make up less than 1% of the total CASM. Do some research...

And you actually have the nerve to get mad at the guys who sign on to fly RJ's for 1/3rd of the pay. Why? They are just doing the same thing you did 20 years ago.

Wrong, genius. The pilots of 20 years ago mostly came out of the military, with a small percentage (less than 20%) out of civilian jet jobs (citations, lears, gulfstreams, the ocassional King Air pilot). NOT the regionals. Regionals didn't really exist 20 years ago except for a few turboprop carriers.

Again, WTF are you smoking?

What choice do they have? It's not like there are good jobs out there to go to. You made sure of that.

They have the same choice the MSA pilots are making. Deal with crap pay or STFD. And good for them, it has to stop somewhere...

In the end I don't really care. Just keep selling tickets for $99.

I hope not. I've been preaching for years that fares need to increase DRAMATICALLY. When it costs less to fly than it does to go Greyhound, something's very very WRONG...

Maybe as SWA's fuel hedges run out and their costs increase (and they raise prices to cover), we'll finally see a little sunshine. Passengers will b*tch, but that's just too d*mn bad. If you don't like it, drive.