Bye Bye Woerthless

[Jonny Sacko]

You're just not too bright either! The ANSWER (as if you have a slight clue) is employee's determining managements pay. PERIOD.

Good year, good management, give bonus'

Typical idiots like you running everything into ground and taking 13million bonus. HANG FROM NEAREST TREE!



"We need modesty, ya, modesty. Please be modest. I'm going to take a bonus, but please be modest. PS I'm gay"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez has been on a three day trip with no computer... but you can pull your wadded panties out now that I am back...

It's all about the politics. alpa is just a business. If there where no politics involved and alpo was really out to help the pilots,

The most ill informed "I don't understand" statement on this thread...

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

You can't represent your pilots from the parking lot.

Sure your pissed and want to throw nuclear hand grenades with THEBEST and LEAR70 enscribed on the sides..... all in the name of Air Line Pilots... and that works in the short term. But whe policy planning occures... guess what! You don't get invited to the meeting!

Hoover, if they want to be militant wacko's that satisfy emotional voids....go for it.. they really don't have the skill set or the audience to go futher than... say a moniker message board....

However, it seems you know a littel more than the lunatic fringe...

 

[Lear70]

Ummm... Rez... you posted on the other DW/ALPA thread just on Wednesday night.

Yeah, gone on a 3-day trip without a computer but were able to respond to the other thread. I think not.

Good try, though.

Incidentally, current ALPA policy of "live to fight another day" doesn't work either, now does it?

Don't even insult my intelligence by trying to support it. We both know better... Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm and they know they are in REAL danger of losing their golden cow, they might actually have to manage an airline responsibly.

oooh oohh, THERE'S a novel concept.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ummm... Rez... you posted on the other DW/ALPA thread just on Wednesday night.

Yeah, gone on a 3-day trip without a computer but were able to respond to the other thread. I think not.

Good try, though.

Wow. You know what I did, even when I don't. OK Lear70, if you believe that I was on line Weds nite, then it must be true. Don't let anyone else tell you different. You tell truth and reality who's boss!

Incidentally, current ALPA policy of "live to fight another day" doesn't work either, now does it?

I guess it all depends one what unit of measure you use. I offer that if you get informed on the issues. Stop talking. Stop typing in CAPS and listen. You might understand what is going on.. Rather your modus operandi suggests your militantcy is uncooperative and thus not really given the time of day when it comes to addressing the issues. Therefore, you aren't afforded the specifics on the issues, don't have all the information and act accordingly.

Don't even insult my intelligence by trying to support it. We both know better... Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm and they know they are in REAL danger of losing their golden cow, they might actually have to manage an airline responsibly.

Lear, since you know and I don't what I was doing Weds night, I am not going to even try to address your intelligence. You are wat too smart for me. What did I do last night? Can you even tell me what I will do tomorrow night? You da man!

But I will suggest this... You stated "Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm"

Since you said it... I ask you this: HOW are we to be more hard nosed? How do we get management to know they can't push us around? Since you challenge me not to insult your intellegence, can you offer real applicable action that will provide results.

OR

If you want to say that is Prater's job for him to figure out, can you reference his website that discusses the hardnose approach.

Eitherway, back up your statements and let me know...

oooh oohh, THERE'S a novel concept.

A novel concept would be pilots participating in thier careers. You keep saying we need hard nosed action and I keep saying pilots need to actually get involved.

Have you sent money to CAPA-PAC yet Lear? Or do have some elaborate conspiarcy reason why it is a good idea in theory but it just isn't practical for you...

Imagine.. actually particapting in events that effect your airline career....

Now there is a novel concept.

 

[Lear70]

Wow. You know what I did, even when I don't. OK Lear70, if you believe that I was on line Weds nite, then it must be true. Don't let anyone else tell you different. You tell truth and reality who's boss!

Hmmm... had a little too much morning coffee, have we?

I was looking at the thread you started about DW several days ago and read the date of your last post on it incorrectly. Yes, I said incorrectly because I, unlike yourself, can admit an error.

Have you sent money to CAPA-PAC yet Lear? Or do have some elaborate conspiarcy reason why it is a good idea in theory but it just isn't practical for you...

Imagine.. actually particapting in events that effect your airline career....

Now there is a novel concept.

And there YOU go, knowing exactly how I have or have not gotten involved in the events shaping my career. Since you know what I haven't done, tell me exactly how many years I DIDN'T volunteer in ALPA committees, tell me how I DIDN'T spend countless hours working on PCL ALPA projects.

Please, enlighten us on how YOU know EXACTLY how I do or do not participate in events that affect my career?

*hint* This is where you own up to your mistake in ASSuming I am uninvolved.

I guess it all depends one what unit of measure you use. I offer that if you get informed on the issues. Stop talking. Stop typing in CAPS and listen. You might understand what is going on..

I type in CAPS only to put stress on certain words so that my typing comes across like I would say it. It's not intended to be a shout, other people understand this. Basically, I'm too lazy to use the bold feature.

Incidentally, I listen just fine; I simply don't hear anything but the same old bullsh*t that's gotten ALPA carriers absolutely NOWHERE in the last couple decades.

The rules have changed. Dinosaurs like you need to learn to adapt.

Rather your modus operandi suggests your militantcy is uncooperative and thus not really given the time of day when it comes to addressing the issues. Therefore, you aren't afforded the specifics on the issues, don't have all the information and act accordingly.

Hmmm... there you go again. Because you are there PERSONALLY every time I talk to a status rep or the MEC chair. Because you PERSONALLY have witnessed how these people wouldn't talk to me about the issues. Incidentally, (2 of them at PCL were very good personal friends, so again, time for you to own up to your error.

But I will suggest this... You stated "Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm"

Since you said it... I ask you this: HOW are we to be more hard nosed? How do we get management to know they can't push us around? Since you challenge me not to insult your intellegence, can you offer real applicable action that will provide results.

I already have, you're simply overlooking not only this thread but past posts where you and I (and the 90% of other people out there who know that the current ALPA stance doesn't work) have butted heads on the issue.

You simply say NO to concessions. You draw up a minimum wage for each equipment category as well as days off and work rules and say "NO ALPA carrier will be allowed to sign for less than this". Then you let mgmt know where this minimum line is and that the airline will be shut down when the pilots strike over it.

If an airline can't afford to pay, too fu*king bad. They need to learn how to compete on cost without robbing the employees who make it happen every day.

Incidentally, I didn't need to go to Prater's website to find that approach, I read it off the press release directly from HIS quote, or did your keen skills of observation (since you can obviously be present to see what anyone is doing on any given day with their union) miss that part?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hmmm... had a little too much morning coffee, have we?

I was looking at the thread you started about DW several days ago and read the date of your last post on it incorrectly. Yes, I said incorrectly because I, unlike yourself, can admit an error.

Ok, your right and I am wrong. No wait you said you were wrong. But that is ok. I'll be wrong.

And there YOU go, knowing exactly how I have or have not gotten involved in the events shaping my career. Since you know what I haven't done, tell me exactly how many years I DIDN'T volunteer in ALPA committees, tell me how I DIDN'T spend countless hours working on PCL ALPA projects.

Please, enlighten us on how YOU know EXACTLY how I do or do not participate in events that affect my career?

*hint* This is where you own up to your mistake in ASSuming I am uninvolved.

Om you're right and I am wrong.

I guess it all depends one what unit of measure you use. I offer that if you get informed on the issues. Stop talking. Stop typing in CAPS and listen. You might understand what is going on..

I type in CAPS only to put stress on certain words so that my typing comes across like I would say it. It's not intended to be a shout, other people understand this. Basically, I'm too lazy to use the bold feature.

Is a consideration of how others precieve your M.O. on the issues valid?

Incidentally, I listen just fine; I simply don't hear anything but the same old bullsh*t that's gotten ALPA carriers absolutely NOWHERE in the last couple decades.

The rules have changed. Dinosaurs like you need to learn to adapt.

Not sure if you do listen. You seem to stand firm on the course of action you believe to be correct. The problem is... no one is taking that course of action. Why is that? Is the ALPA membership and/or leadership wrong and you're right?

Again.. the course of action you suggest is not being implemented!!! Does that mean anything to you!

Hmmm... there you go again. Because you are there PERSONALLY every time I talk to a status rep or the MEC chair. Because you PERSONALLY have witnessed how these people wouldn't talk to me about the issues. Incidentally, (2 of them at PCL were very good personal friends, so again, time for you to own up to your error.

Ok you're right and I am wrong.

Have you contributed in CAPA-PAC? You didn't answer from my last post.

I already have, you're simply overlooking not only this thread but past posts where you and I (and the 90% of other people out there who know that the current ALPA stance doesn't work) have butted heads on the issue.

90% of the other people? I didn't realize that you reprsented and spoke for 90% of the other people. Wow. Impressive.

You simply say NO to concessions. You draw up a minimum wage for each equipment category as well as days off and work rules and say "NO ALPA carrier will be allowed to sign for less than this". Then you let mgmt know where this minimum line is and that the airline will be shut down when the pilots strike over it.

Ok Lear.. fine. How. For the love of god and all things holy please discuss the practical application of your ideas. How do we implement! It one thing to ramble on the message boards about your ideas it is another to convince others your ideas are valid and workable and then acutally implement them. This is where you fall off the map!

What would be great is Mach 5 passenger travel. NYC to Tokyo in 2 hours. Sounds great. How do you do it.

Actually, we tried to say no to concessions. But the pilot groups of NWA, Airtran, DAL, AMR, and UAL all said yes collectively via TA's and democratic votes. So as a minority, who is your issue really with? The leadership or the membership?

Riddle me this. If we say no to concessions then management will get the cost cut another way. Furloughs. Unions don't control hiring and terminations. So, if the unions say no to negotiate concessions managment will simply furlough more pilots. So the union can negotiate pay cuts so more guys can pay thier house note or do it the lear70 way and more guys cannot pay thier house note.

If an airline can't afford to pay, too fu*king bad. They need to learn how to compete on cost without robbing the employees who make it happen every day.

Great. How. How. how. I'm sure the profanity will be convincing too.

Incidentally, I didn't need to go to Prater's website to find that approach, I read it off the press release directly from HIS quote, or did your keen skills of observation (since you can obviously be present to see what anyone is doing on any given day with their union) miss that part?

Prater is one guy. What we need is more pilots particapting. What if pilots only gave thier dues money and that is it. What if pilots were very active showing up at rallys, picketing, LEC meetings, PACs contributions, etc... Just thinking about it you can see the difference in effectiveness.

Where is the effectiveness? Smugly thinking Prater is going to single handedly change this profession? Or getting involved in your career?

 

[Peanut gallery]

We are getting way off track here

Back to the original topic. Duane is truely worthless, he will not be missed and he should leave knowing that. He should hang his head in shame and his children should wonder the earth in search of a place where they can live free from the shame that he has brought upon them.

There:smash: I feel better now, thanks alot Duane you worthless piece of.........

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Back to the original topic. Duane is truely worthless, he will not be missed and he should leave knowing that. He should hang his head in shame and his children should wonder the earth in search of a place where they can live free from the shame that he has brought upon them.

There:smash: I feel better now, thanks alot Duane you worthless piece of.........

I'd agree with you if you could provide convincing examples of..... here it comes.....how Duane was woerthless.....

 

[Jonny Sacko]

I'd agree with you if you could provide convincing examples of..... here it comes.....how Duane was woerthless.....

Because he's got 1 person standing up for him. Hmmm

 

[F9FORme]

http://www.johnprater2006.com/index-1.html

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because he's got 1 person standing up for him. Hmmm

There was a 1% difference in the vote.



Is there any real debate?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I'd agree with you if you could provide convincing examples of..... here it comes.....how Duane was woerthless.....

It starts from the top and goes all the way down in my opinion.

Under Duane's guidence we have been decimated. Airlines gutted, Uncontrolled RJ growth, substandard contract and pay rates for said RJ's, Industry wide raping of the pensions, Alter Ego airlines, sister pilot groups played against one another, junior pilots preyed upon by senior pilots(furloughed pilots...raising the hours flown by the working pilots to make more money while guys are on the street), senior pilots preyed upon by junior pilots(severing retirees pensions and medical insurance to make a few bucks more an hour for the working guys) Whole airlines shut down to get around contracts by transferring the work and aircraft to other ALPA carriers with lower pay rates(Mesa/CCAir), F/O's that fly jets that qualify for food stamps, etc etc etc..... The list goes on and on.

Lets face it, It cannot get much worse than it has under Duane's leadership. He may not be to blame for it all, but it happened on his watch. I have seen 2 furloughs, loss of my retirement, and a strike during the last 5 years. Yet everytime I pick up ALPA magazine Duane never seemed to be doing much except lobbying for Jumpseats, or trying to get me through security faster....something that I really did not care much about since, just trying to stay employed was hard enough without worring about it.

I really enjoyed the article about my last airline, a certian freight outfit that transferred half of the flying to a sister company and parked half the fleet and furloughed half the airline, potentially violating many many sections of the contract....yet in the ALPA rag it was classified as "a minor dispute." Well it sure seemed pretty major to half an airline worth of pilots!

Duane lost touch with what he was supposed to be doing, or at least that is the way it appeared to thousands and thousands of screwed pilots.

That is why he is no longer there.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

There was a 1% difference in the vote.



Is there any real debate?

That is simply because 8000+ ALPA members are currently furloughed and cannot vote!

Looking through mail, hmmmm, nope don't seem to see any ballot from ALPA national here...............

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It starts from the top and goes all the way down in my opinion.

A valid point.

What about individual leadership? ALPA is a volunteer organization. Meaning if you want to make it better there is plenty of work to do. With that said, do we sit around and wait for DW to make a move?

Under Duane's guidence we have been decimated. Airlines gutted, Uncontrolled RJ growth, substandard contract and pay rates for said RJ's, Industry wide raping of the pensions, Alter Ego airlines, sister pilot groups played against one another, junior pilots preyed upon by senior pilots(furloughed pilots...raising the hours flown by the working pilots to make more money while guys are on the street), senior pilots preyed upon by junior pilots(severing retirees pensions and medical insurance to make a few bucks more an hour for the working guys) Whole airlines shut down to get around contracts by transferring the work and aircraft to other ALPA carriers with lower pay rates(Mesa/CCAir), F/O's that fly jets that qualify for food stamps, etc etc etc..... The list goes on and on.

I hear what you are saying... but you just described what happened. Can you discuss HOW that is DW fault? What did he fail to do, specifically? Since the Presidents's job, on the National level, is to deal with national issues, alot of what you decribe above are local issues.

What about the MEC chiarman and the EVPs? Where was their role in all of this?

Lets face it, It cannot get much worse than it has under Duane's leadership. He may not be to blame for it all, but it happened on his watch. I have seen 2 furloughs, loss of my retirement, and a strike during the last 5 years. Yet everytime I pick up ALPA magazine Duane never seemed to be doing much except lobbying for Jumpseats, or trying to get me through security faster....something that I really did not care much about since, just trying to stay employed was hard enough without worring about it.

Ive seen discplacements, two furloughs and first year pay three times in five years and I am still active in the union. I am not giving up. I do think it can get alot worse. read on....

I really enjoyed the article about my last airline, a certian freight outfit that transferred half of the flying to a sister company and parked half the fleet and furloughed half the airline, potentially violating many many sections of the contract....yet in the ALPA rag it was classified as "a minor dispute." Well it sure seemed pretty major to half an airline worth of pilots!

Fair enough!

Duane lost touch with what he was supposed to be doing, or at least that is the way it appeared to thousands and thousands of screwed pilots.

That is why he is no longer there.

I agree. That was his weakness and it was exploited. DW was big into the DC scene. Which is really what we need. We need a guy that deal with Congressmen, Secretaries, etc... I hope Prater can do the same..

Globalization is going to hit us Air Line Pilots pretty hard in the next decade. If the independant unions think they can bubble themselves from the onslaught of globalization forces they better think again.

Prater has alot of work to do on the National and International level. If you think he has time to care for your MEC think again. It is time for more individuals to step up to the plate and be thier own custodians.

The disallusionment with Prater has begun.

He campaigned the preception that he would not take a salary more than his current line salary. But before the BOD was done he had secured essentially DW's compensation package minus 25K. That is not a bad thing, but the membership still doesn't get it.​

I recall, and correct me if I am wrong, that Prater stated he would still fly the line once a month. Something to make him attractive for votes. Do you want your President flying or protecting your career? I haven't seen any word on that lately....​

Prater is already, before the new week as begun after the BOD, believed to be indifferent to the regionals. Once they destroy the regionals they will come after the majors. If I were a major pilot I'd want fodder protecting me...​

What does all this really mean? Well, there really is no disillusionment. It is just a lack of understanding of the membership. Maybe Prater worked it a bit to get votes. Nothing wrong with that...

But what it really means is Prater isn't going to single handedly make this profession what we believe it should be. He is not going to be the anti-Duane. He is not going to be the opposite of everything we hated in Duane.

Finally, Prater knows what all Presidents know: ALPA-PAC. On Praters website he has two articles from 2004 and 2002 promoting the PAC. He knows it. Do you?

That is simply because 8000+ ALPA members are currently furloughed and cannot vote!

Looking through mail, hmmmm, nope don't seem to see any ballot from ALPA national here...............

you're trying to be funny.... right?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

A valid point.

I hear what you are saying... but you just described what happened. Can you discuss HOW that is DW fault? What did he fail to do, specifically? Since the Presidents's job, on the National level, is to deal with national issues, alot of what you decribe above are local issues.

Then why do we bother with a national union? If ALPA national is not going to step in and provide some guidance and rules to local memberships.....specifically involving the undercutting and outsourcing of flying ....why do I bother to pay national part of my salary? DW's massive salary from ALPA was funded by my paychecks for what, so he can help the regional MEC's draft their contract that caused the parking of my 737 in favor of their slave wage RJ? Or how about the fact that in some cases you have 6 or 7 ALPA carriers all fighting for the same flying and undercutting each other causing the pay and QOL to fall on a daily basis? Currently there is no ALPA national....all we have is individual unions that pay huge sums of money to a few guys in DC while each airline....supposedly in the same brotherhood..decimates one another.

I recall, and correct me if I am wrong, that Prater stated he would still fly the line once a month. Something to make him attractive for votes. Do you want your President flying or protecting your career? I haven't seen any word on that lately....

If he flies once in a while at least maybe it can be said that he has some clue as to what the line pilots are dealing with, something that I think it is painfully obvious that DW lost touch with.
​

Prater is already, before the new week as begun after the BOD, believed to be indifferent to the regionals. Once they destroy the regionals they will come after the majors. If I were a major pilot I'd want fodder protecting me...

I think the majors are now the fodder protecting the regionals....at least that is the case at my Major. All new flying in the last five years has gone to the RJ, and roughly half of the mainline routes have been transferred to the RJ in the last five years. Looks to me like the RJ guys have a nice pad going....other than the hideous pay rates.
​

What does all this really mean? Well, there really is no disillusionment. It is just a lack of understanding of the membership. Maybe Prater worked it a bit to get votes. Nothing wrong with that...

No I think it was clearly a lack of understanding by ALPA national of what is going on in the cockpits....again made painfully clear by DW's focus on jumpseat and TSA issues, fatigue studies, and any number of other "items of interest" instead of full attention on jobs. JS and TSA issues are but a minor sidenote, one that does not matter in the slightest to the thousands left with no retirement, no job, and decimated contracts.

But what it really means is Prater isn't going to single handedly make this profession what we believe it should be. He is not going to be the anti-Duane. He is not going to be the opposite of everything we hated in Duane.
Of course not, but maybe he can provide the leadership that is needed to help bring all the different ALPA unions back together into ONE union.....something that is id clear DW was incapable of doing.


Finally, Prater knows what all Presidents know: ALPA-PAC. On Praters website he has two articles from 2004 and 2002 promoting the PAC. He knows it. Do you?

Of course, but since I am currently furloughed yet again...put out of work by another ALPA union..again........I am doing good to keep a roof over my head right now, but DW wouldn't know anything about that would he...what was his salary again last year? What was the average line pilots salary last year? How about the RJ pilots salary? DW has more in common with the CEO's than he did with the pilots, and that as I said before is why he is gone.

.........

 

[BluDevAv8r]

That is simply because 8000+ ALPA members are currently furloughed and cannot vote!

Looking through mail, hmmmm, nope don't seem to see any ballot from ALPA national here...............

ALPA members don't vote for the president. Only the elected domicile/status reps vote (they all constitute the BOD).

-Neal

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Then why do we bother with a national union? If ALPA national is not going to step in and provide some guidance and rules to local memberships.....specifically involving the undercutting and outsourcing of flying ....why do I bother to pay national part of my salary? DW's massive salary from ALPA was funded by my paychecks for what, so he can help the regional MEC's draft their contract that caused the parking of my 737 in favor of their slave wage RJ? Or how about the fact that in some cases you have 6 or 7 ALPA carriers all fighting for the same flying and undercutting each other causing the pay and QOL to fall on a daily basis? Currently there is no ALPA national....all we have is individual unions that pay huge sums of money to a few guys in DC while each airline....supposedly in the same brotherhood..decimates one another.

We have a national union to deal with national issues. Your quote above discusses what is happening to you.. specifically you. That is important. What is also important is what is happening on the national level and now in the near future, the international level. We have IFALPA for a reason. What happend internationally and nationally effects us all on the local level. Those effects are accurately detialed by you above.

The solution to the problems can be found on the local, national and international level.

Right now, most ALPA pilots only know about local issues and what they know is often misguided. ALPA pilots must getinformed on the national level. the Capital hill issues. And now the Int'l issues too.

As far as pay. In another thread I broke down the national salaries. If you really think the issues is over compensation, then think again. In addtion, Prater just accepted the same compensation package as DW minus 25K.

The issue isn't National salaries. the isssue is membership effectiveness.

If he flies once in a while at least maybe it can be said that he has some clue as to what the line pilots are dealing with, something that I think it is painfully obvious that DW lost touch with.

DW did lose a connection with the membership. But the ALPA national officers are polticians. just like your MEC and LEC guys. Do we want a pilot dealing with polticians in DC or a politican who understands pilots dealing with other politicans in DC.

If you are sued within the avaition industry do you want a pilot prentending to be a lawyer or do you want a lawyer prentending to be a pilot?

I think the majors are now the fodder protecting the regionals....at least that is the case at my Major. All new flying in the last five years has gone to the RJ, and roughly half of the mainline routes have been transferred to the RJ in the last five years. Looks to me like the RJ guys have a nice pad going....other than the hideous pay rates.

Eitherway, none of us should be fodder for the other.

No I think it was clearly a lack of understanding by ALPA national of what is going on in the cockpits....again made painfully clear by DW's focus on jumpseat and TSA issues, fatigue studies, and any number of other "items of interest" instead of full attention on jobs. JS and TSA issues are but a minor sidenote, one that does not matter in the slightest to the thousands left with no retirement, no job, and decimated contracts.

JS is a major issue. I for one could not do this job without it. Thus i would have no job, no retirement and a 100% pay cut. JS is just one of many critical issues that have to be managed.

Decimated contracts? Why is that ALPA Nationals fault? When the pilots on the local level authorized thier NC to engage. And when the NC delivered a decimated contract the local pilots voted clearly with a yes. Why does everyone overlook this and try to blame ALPA National?

Of course not, but maybe he can provide the leadership that is needed to help bring all the different ALPA unions back together into ONE union.....something that is id clear DW was incapable of doing.

HOW? Do you think DW couldn't or wouldn't? If he could then HOW. or are we blindly putting faith into Prater becuase he isn't DW.

This is a shared responsibility. We can't just pay our dues and maybe vote and hope.

We have got to be engaged in our own careers.

Of course, but since I am currently furloughed yet again...put out of work by another ALPA union..again........I am doing good to keep a roof over my head right now, but DW wouldn't know anything about that would he...what was his salary again last year? What was the average line pilots salary last year? How about the RJ pilots salary? DW has more in common with the CEO's than he did with the pilots, and that as I said before is why he is gone.

Put out of work by ALPA? How is that? Did you apply to ALPA? Did ALPA send you your termination notice?

The salary issue again? How do the salaries come into play when the membership voted by majority to accpet these decimated contracts? The gutted contracts orginated on the local level and were finalized on the local level.

check out the salary info on the next post.............

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

OK.. I'll post the info....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cactusboy53 [URL]http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/URL]
Rez;
Weak on facts??
1. Duane has not taken any paycuts (do you know otherwise?) - FACT
.

I'll help you out..........

Recall UAL2000 and DAL2001 for the increase in 2001. Then the membership started voting on concessionary contracts to lower the presidents pay. If each pilot had balls to stand up to management the Presidents pay and thier own pay would would not have dropped. By each pilot voting for concessionary contracts they were also saying....

We don't want a

• National seniority list
• National Pay Rates
• Nationwide strike

What each pilot group was saying collectively was "let's live to fight another day"


Quote:

Duane Woerth​

President​

Air Line Pilots​

Historical Salary Information

Year Salary % Raise Title

2005 $ 351,186 -15.4% PRESIDENT
2004 $ 415,026 -2.0% PRESIDENT
2002 $ 423,705 -3.5% PRESIDENT
2001 $ 439,296 40.2% PRESIDENT
2000 $ 313,392 — PRESIDENT​

​

Finally, the DOL considers expenses as income. So when Prater takes up residence in DC to represent the pilots, just like all Presidents have done, his expenses will have to be reported as income. That is what inflates the values and causes the ignorant masses to go ape sh!t.

Here is the next ALPA National Officer (there are four) First Vice President listed as number 32 below DW​

Quote:

Historical Salary Information
Year Salary % Raise Title
2005 $ 0 — First Vice-president
2004 $ 0 — First Vp
2002 $ 0 — First Vice Pres
2001 $ 0 — First Vice Pres
2000 $ 0 — First Vice Pres​

Here is salary info for the current ALPA Vice President of Admin. He is listed number 47 in pay at ALPA below DW.

Quote:

Historical Salary Information
Year Salary % Raise Title
2005 $ 0 — Vice President Admin
2004 $ 0 — Vp Administrati​

Here is the fourth Vice President listed as number 54.



Quote:

Historical Salary Information​

Year Salary % Raise Title

2005 $ 0 — Vice President Finance




​

Now, each of the three VP's still get paid from thier respective carriers and based on thier longevity and equipement they hold. Since the pilots at thier carriers have been voting to take pay cuts and save thier jobs these guys have been taking pay cuts too... Here what they make...


Quote:

First Vice-president$ 0$ 180,874$ 180,874
Vice President Admin$ 0$ 162,735$ 162,735
Vice President Finance$ 0$ 155,360$ 155,360​

Are these annual salaries ok for guys that work 12 hour days six to seven days a week?​

Finally these numbers are taken from unionfacts.org. Of course the numbers are factual but skewed. As mentioned earlier expenses must be reported as income. So the three salaries above in real dollars is even less....


Let's look at one more listing. The UAL MEC Chairman has $35,337 listed as compensation. But in reality those were his expenses.

 

[XJohXJ]

Look, REZ, I understand and appreciate many of your points, but so many things, such as the current pervaiding cut-throat-whipsaw climate can not ever be addressed at the local level, and must be addressed by national. If national can not address it by acting as a national union should (i.e. working for the good of all rather than pitting one against the other), then we are all going to lose whatever worth our careers have. Do I know exactly how to do this? No. But I am paying my share towards the salaries of experts, whatever their names may be, to tackle issues such as these for me. And I do keep in direct communications with my LEC and MEC reps.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Look, REZ, I understand and appreciate many of your points, but so many things, such as the current pervaiding cut-throat-whipsaw climate can not ever be addressed at the local level, and must be addressed by national. If national can not address it by acting as a national union should (i.e. working for the good of all rather than pitting one against the other), then we are all going to lose whatever worth our careers have. Do I know exactly how to do this? No. But I am paying my share towards the salaries of experts, whatever their names may be, to tackle issues such as these for me. And I do keep in direct communications with my LEC and MEC reps.

Agreed!

The cut throat whipsaw climate works for us in good times and bits us in poor times. An educated membership knows this.

Also, the RLA prevents us from acting like a National union.

The free market system in this country prevents us from having the hard core power that we all crave and wish to implement. That is the US of A and not the unions fault.

And I am not saying that we should just accpet this status quo.

An understanding and particaption is critically lacking in our membership. We can't expect action from out leadership if we aren't willing to do so ourselves.

Expecting our leadership to "just" act as a national union with balls is unrealistic. In order to do that alot has to happen and it starts with each member stepping up to the plate and getting involved.

It is slow methodical, boring, grey and unquantified but it is the way it works...

We can start anytime...... just.....get..... involved!

:beer:

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

We have a national union to deal with national issues. Your quote above discusses what is happening to you.. specifically you. That is important. What is also important is what is happening on the national level and now in the near future, the international level. We have IFALPA for a reason. What happend internationally and nationally effects us all on the local level. Those effects are accurately detialed by you above.

The solution to the problems can be found on the local, national and international level.

Right now, most ALPA pilots only know about local issues and what they know is often misguided. ALPA pilots must getinformed on the national level. the Capital hill issues. And now the Int'l issues too.

As far as pay. In another thread I broke down the national salaries. If you really think the issues is over compensation, then think again. In addtion, Prater just accepted the same compensation package as DW minus 25K.

The issue isn't National salaries. the isssue is membership effectiveness.





DW did lose a connection with the membership. But the ALPA national officers are polticians. just like your MEC and LEC guys. Do we want a pilot dealing with polticians in DC or a politican who understands pilots dealing with other politicans in DC.

If you are sued within the avaition industry do you want a pilot prentending to be a lawyer or do you want a lawyer prentending to be a pilot?





Eitherway, none of us should be fodder for the other.





JS is a major issue. I for one could not do this job without it. Thus i would have no job, no retirement and a 100% pay cut. JS is just one of many critical issues that have to be managed.

Decimated contracts? Why is that ALPA Nationals fault? When the pilots on the local level authorized thier NC to engage. And when the NC delivered a decimated contract the local pilots voted clearly with a yes. Why does everyone overlook this and try to blame ALPA National?



HOW? Do you think DW couldn't or wouldn't? If he could then HOW. or are we blindly putting faith into Prater becuase he isn't DW.

This is a shared responsibility. We can't just pay our dues and maybe vote and hope.

We have got to be engaged in our own careers.



Put out of work by ALPA? How is that? Did you apply to ALPA? Did ALPA send you your termination notice?

The salary issue again? How do the salaries come into play when the membership voted by majority to accpet these decimated contracts? The gutted contracts orginated on the local level and were finalized on the local level.

check out the salary info on the next post.............

Your statements, specifically the ones about how "the problem is on a local level" only adds strength to the fact that we (ALPA) has a serious serious fragmentation problem. As I said before, and by your own admission above, we no longer have a "National Union" we have 50 or 60 local unions all doing what is best for them, which all put together is destroying the profession completly.

Back in the day this system worked for the most part, but back then we only had one seniority list flying per paint job. As it is now we have in some cases 8 or 10 MEC's per paint job. Clearly the stance that "National is for National concerns" is no longer valid. Unless we can bridge the groups together by strong, and maybe even more controlling, national leadership the profession will only continue to decay. There needs to be in place better guidance and possibly even some basic "Minimums" so to speak when it comes to negotiating contracts. Even something as simple as common payrates for all aircraft of specific types flown under the same brand name. I.E. All RJ's flown by United, or USAir are paid the same..regardless of which contract carrier is flying them, that would go a long way to avoiding the whipsaw that we currently have, Mgmt. would not be so hot on having 8 contract carriers if they knew they all had to be paid the same. Their ability to leverage one group against another would greatly decrease. In the old days when we had 20 or 30 brand names it was much easier to control a "minimum baseline" so to speak, as it is currently set up it is nearly impossible.

Will the above ideas work? Maybe, maybe not, but we need to begin to think out of the box here, mgmt. sure is. They come up with new ways to screw us daily and yet ALPA, a group that used to hold real power and influence in the industry has been reduced to a quivering mass of excuses and pass the buck mentalities. "It is a local issue" is a prime example.

Am I an expert in politics? No. Do I have all the answers? Of course not.

I am just a guy that pays dues, attends meetings, and moves metal through the sky from city to city. You know.........ALPA.....or at least I used to be, these last few years I have simply been reduced to a number in a disfunctional union with no direction. I have actually been removed from ALPA web boards simply because I was a member of a group that ALPA leadership didn't want to hear from (furloughed) Apparantly we asked too many questions of our local leadership and they didn't like having to answer for the decisions that they made.

ALPA is self destructing by following their current path, surely you can see this Rez, if not then you will be one of the ones sitting there among the decimated ruins wondering what the heck happened. Of course I am sure even then there will be a group of you saying "It is a local issue"..............

 

[PCL_128]

Kerosene, the ironic thing is that the concerns you have expressed are shared by none other than Captain Woerth himself. You could practically have written your post above based on his report to the BOD on the opening day last week.

The question isn't "what are the problems?". Everyone, including the National Officers, agree on the problems already. No, the question is, "how do we fix the problems?". Everyone has lots of complaints and issues to voice, but no one ever offers any solutions.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Kerosene, the ironic thing is that the concerns you have expressed are shared by none other than Captain Woerth himself. You could practically have written your post above based on his report to the BOD on the opening day last week.

The question isn't "what are the problems?". Everyone, including the National Officers, agree on the problems already. No, the question is, "how do we fix the problems?". Everyone has lots of complaints and issues to voice, but no one ever offers any solutions.

Then the question is why did he not at least TRY to address the problems? It is not like these things came about in the past few months. During USAirs BK and wholesale gutting, national was but a small side note in the process.

Since it was the first, a slow reaction to it is understandable. But then UAL suffered the exact same process, followed by others until now it is DAL that is being destroyed. Slow reaction to massive problems in this arena will have the same effect as it does on a battlefield.......entire armies wiped out.

Just because it has "never been done that way" has cost many nations during times of conflict, just as it is costing us now.

I have but one simple question for ALPA national......Why do they suppose that of the three most healthy and money making airlines left in the country, with the best pay and QOL, two of them are NOT ALPA? Additionally the one that is ALPA has zero ALPA represented competitors of comprable size in their field (Home to Home package delivery) (UPS, SWA, Fedex) Add Jetblue to the mix and you have four, though the jury is still out on their long term success due to their youth.

I submit that the answer is in large part due to ALPA's own making, and the self consuming eating of our own that ALPA is allowing and even helping to thrive.

Until we address the problems with the wholesale outsourcing, non of the fatigue studies or anything else will matter, they will be rendered irrelevant.

And the only way to do that is for ALPA national to take a very close and concered interest ing the "Local issues"

 

[PCL_128]

Then the question is why did he not at least TRY to address the problems?

He has tried to address these problems. Unfortunately, the President can't force individual MECs to hold the line. These MECs and pilot groups voted on these contracts, so they got them. That's not the fault of Captain Woerth. Trying to blame National for that is ridiculous.

The problem is that Captain Woerth would like have made ALPA a more centralized organization (he's said so many times), but he can't do it by himself. Change of that scope within the Association has to come from the BOD. The problem with this, of course, is that the BOD is composed of the very same reps that voted these concessionary contracts in. Are they going to vote away their power and give it to National? Not likely. The best way to fix this problem is to wait until the industry is in a good position, like it was in the late 90s through early 2001. During that time, faith and trust in the Association was at an all-time high. Pattern bargaining was working great. That's when you can get support for real change. That means you have to wait for the circumstances to improve to make progress on reforming the Association. Trying to reform the organization while the profession is in a fight for its very survival is not reasonable. Captain Woerth understood this. It's a shame that he won't have the chance to see it through, because he really did have the vision to pull it off. Now we have to wait and see if Captain Prater has the same abilities.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Trying to reform the organization while the profession is in a fight for its very survival is not reasonable.

I guess that is the difference between you and I. I do not see us being able to save the profession without the reform. Not with hoards of new 500 to 1000 hour pilots coming in willing to do anything just to fly a jet. By the time they "Mature" in the industry, it is already too late.

To most of us out on the line, "reasonable" left the building a while back. Along with the RJ, pensions, scope, and brand names. On our current path there will never be another "Good time".

 

[Contract]

There is only one thing to do for this profession. Most will not like it, and others will only profess their faith to improving this work industry, all the while raping one another along the way. So here it is Boys and Girls. If you stop flying and stay still they will have to figure out a way to swat you like a fly. It can only be done just as it is done to a fly. Fast and Furious.

 

[Contract]

Rereading my fly, I seem to be confused with McFly. Either way, get it done or stop complaining. In the end, we will all have to determine our own outcome. So lets get it on !!!!!! Whos on First???

 

[Contract]

No more BEER for Whos on First.

 

[JP4user]

Not with hoards of new 500 to 1000 hour pilots coming in willing to do anything just to fly a jet. By the time they "Mature" in the industry, it is already too late.

PCL resembles that remark very closely. Don't let his union bravado and knowledge fool you. He is the epitomy of what you described above by buying his job with that pft scab operation Gulfstream.

I agree with you completly about ALPA. It is broken and I believe beyond repair unless radical thought and change is implemented.

Rez is a lost cause. When you sift through the meat of his replies they all end up being the same theme. The elite in ALPA need to be paid these exorbetant salaries so they can weild their self proclaimed and imagined clout in D.C. Further, all the problems are the memberships fault for non involvement and there is no duty to lead by or set an example from National.

 

[hoover]

If the airline can't afford it, they shut down. If an INDIVIDUAL ALPA carrier is able to negotiate more, so be it. But there MUST be a MINIMUM wage base established.

Yes that is a great idea. Until your airline shuts down