Bye Bye Woerthless

[Jonny Sacko]

You're just not too bright either! The ANSWER (as if you have a slight clue) is employee's determining managements pay. PERIOD.

Good year, good management, give bonus'

Typical idiots like you running everything into ground and taking 13million bonus. HANG FROM NEAREST TREE!



"We need modesty, ya, modesty. Please be modest. I'm going to take a bonus, but please be modest. PS I'm gay"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez has been on a three day trip with no computer... but you can pull your wadded panties out now that I am back...

It's all about the politics. alpa is just a business. If there where no politics involved and alpo was really out to help the pilots,

The most ill informed "I don't understand" statement on this thread...

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

You can't represent your pilots from the parking lot.

Sure your pissed and want to throw nuclear hand grenades with THEBEST and LEAR70 enscribed on the sides..... all in the name of Air Line Pilots... and that works in the short term. But whe policy planning occures... guess what! You don't get invited to the meeting!

Hoover, if they want to be militant wacko's that satisfy emotional voids....go for it.. they really don't have the skill set or the audience to go futher than... say a moniker message board....

However, it seems you know a littel more than the lunatic fringe...

 

[Lear70]

Ummm... Rez... you posted on the other DW/ALPA thread just on Wednesday night.

Yeah, gone on a 3-day trip without a computer but were able to respond to the other thread. I think not.

Good try, though.

Incidentally, current ALPA policy of "live to fight another day" doesn't work either, now does it?

Don't even insult my intelligence by trying to support it. We both know better... Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm and they know they are in REAL danger of losing their golden cow, they might actually have to manage an airline responsibly.

oooh oohh, THERE'S a novel concept.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ummm... Rez... you posted on the other DW/ALPA thread just on Wednesday night.

Yeah, gone on a 3-day trip without a computer but were able to respond to the other thread. I think not.

Good try, though.

Wow. You know what I did, even when I don't. OK Lear70, if you believe that I was on line Weds nite, then it must be true. Don't let anyone else tell you different. You tell truth and reality who's boss!

Incidentally, current ALPA policy of "live to fight another day" doesn't work either, now does it?

I guess it all depends one what unit of measure you use. I offer that if you get informed on the issues. Stop talking. Stop typing in CAPS and listen. You might understand what is going on.. Rather your modus operandi suggests your militantcy is uncooperative and thus not really given the time of day when it comes to addressing the issues. Therefore, you aren't afforded the specifics on the issues, don't have all the information and act accordingly.

Don't even insult my intelligence by trying to support it. We both know better... Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm and they know they are in REAL danger of losing their golden cow, they might actually have to manage an airline responsibly.

Lear, since you know and I don't what I was doing Weds night, I am not going to even try to address your intelligence. You are wat too smart for me. What did I do last night? Can you even tell me what I will do tomorrow night? You da man!

But I will suggest this... You stated "Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm"

Since you said it... I ask you this: HOW are we to be more hard nosed? How do we get management to know they can't push us around? Since you challenge me not to insult your intellegence, can you offer real applicable action that will provide results.

OR

If you want to say that is Prater's job for him to figure out, can you reference his website that discusses the hardnose approach.

Eitherway, back up your statements and let me know...

oooh oohh, THERE'S a novel concept.

A novel concept would be pilots participating in thier careers. You keep saying we need hard nosed action and I keep saying pilots need to actually get involved.

Have you sent money to CAPA-PAC yet Lear? Or do have some elaborate conspiarcy reason why it is a good idea in theory but it just isn't practical for you...

Imagine.. actually particapting in events that effect your airline career....

Now there is a novel concept.

 

[Lear70]

Wow. You know what I did, even when I don't. OK Lear70, if you believe that I was on line Weds nite, then it must be true. Don't let anyone else tell you different. You tell truth and reality who's boss!

Hmmm... had a little too much morning coffee, have we?

I was looking at the thread you started about DW several days ago and read the date of your last post on it incorrectly. Yes, I said incorrectly because I, unlike yourself, can admit an error.

Have you sent money to CAPA-PAC yet Lear? Or do have some elaborate conspiarcy reason why it is a good idea in theory but it just isn't practical for you...

Imagine.. actually particapting in events that effect your airline career....

Now there is a novel concept.

And there YOU go, knowing exactly how I have or have not gotten involved in the events shaping my career. Since you know what I haven't done, tell me exactly how many years I DIDN'T volunteer in ALPA committees, tell me how I DIDN'T spend countless hours working on PCL ALPA projects.

Please, enlighten us on how YOU know EXACTLY how I do or do not participate in events that affect my career?

*hint* This is where you own up to your mistake in ASSuming I am uninvolved.

I guess it all depends one what unit of measure you use. I offer that if you get informed on the issues. Stop talking. Stop typing in CAPS and listen. You might understand what is going on..

I type in CAPS only to put stress on certain words so that my typing comes across like I would say it. It's not intended to be a shout, other people understand this. Basically, I'm too lazy to use the bold feature.

Incidentally, I listen just fine; I simply don't hear anything but the same old bullsh*t that's gotten ALPA carriers absolutely NOWHERE in the last couple decades.

The rules have changed. Dinosaurs like you need to learn to adapt.

Rather your modus operandi suggests your militantcy is uncooperative and thus not really given the time of day when it comes to addressing the issues. Therefore, you aren't afforded the specifics on the issues, don't have all the information and act accordingly.

Hmmm... there you go again. Because you are there PERSONALLY every time I talk to a status rep or the MEC chair. Because you PERSONALLY have witnessed how these people wouldn't talk to me about the issues. Incidentally, (2 of them at PCL were very good personal friends, so again, time for you to own up to your error.

But I will suggest this... You stated "Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm"

Since you said it... I ask you this: HOW are we to be more hard nosed? How do we get management to know they can't push us around? Since you challenge me not to insult your intellegence, can you offer real applicable action that will provide results.

I already have, you're simply overlooking not only this thread but past posts where you and I (and the 90% of other people out there who know that the current ALPA stance doesn't work) have butted heads on the issue.

You simply say NO to concessions. You draw up a minimum wage for each equipment category as well as days off and work rules and say "NO ALPA carrier will be allowed to sign for less than this". Then you let mgmt know where this minimum line is and that the airline will be shut down when the pilots strike over it.

If an airline can't afford to pay, too fu*king bad. They need to learn how to compete on cost without robbing the employees who make it happen every day.

Incidentally, I didn't need to go to Prater's website to find that approach, I read it off the press release directly from HIS quote, or did your keen skills of observation (since you can obviously be present to see what anyone is doing on any given day with their union) miss that part?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hmmm... had a little too much morning coffee, have we?

I was looking at the thread you started about DW several days ago and read the date of your last post on it incorrectly. Yes, I said incorrectly because I, unlike yourself, can admit an error.

Ok, your right and I am wrong. No wait you said you were wrong. But that is ok. I'll be wrong.

And there YOU go, knowing exactly how I have or have not gotten involved in the events shaping my career. Since you know what I haven't done, tell me exactly how many years I DIDN'T volunteer in ALPA committees, tell me how I DIDN'T spend countless hours working on PCL ALPA projects.

Please, enlighten us on how YOU know EXACTLY how I do or do not participate in events that affect my career?

*hint* This is where you own up to your mistake in ASSuming I am uninvolved.

Om you're right and I am wrong.

I guess it all depends one what unit of measure you use. I offer that if you get informed on the issues. Stop talking. Stop typing in CAPS and listen. You might understand what is going on..

I type in CAPS only to put stress on certain words so that my typing comes across like I would say it. It's not intended to be a shout, other people understand this. Basically, I'm too lazy to use the bold feature.

Is a consideration of how others precieve your M.O. on the issues valid?

Incidentally, I listen just fine; I simply don't hear anything but the same old bullsh*t that's gotten ALPA carriers absolutely NOWHERE in the last couple decades.

The rules have changed. Dinosaurs like you need to learn to adapt.

Not sure if you do listen. You seem to stand firm on the course of action you believe to be correct. The problem is... no one is taking that course of action. Why is that? Is the ALPA membership and/or leadership wrong and you're right?

Again.. the course of action you suggest is not being implemented!!! Does that mean anything to you!

Hmmm... there you go again. Because you are there PERSONALLY every time I talk to a status rep or the MEC chair. Because you PERSONALLY have witnessed how these people wouldn't talk to me about the issues. Incidentally, (2 of them at PCL were very good personal friends, so again, time for you to own up to your error.

Ok you're right and I am wrong.

Have you contributed in CAPA-PAC? You didn't answer from my last post.

I already have, you're simply overlooking not only this thread but past posts where you and I (and the 90% of other people out there who know that the current ALPA stance doesn't work) have butted heads on the issue.

90% of the other people? I didn't realize that you reprsented and spoke for 90% of the other people. Wow. Impressive.

You simply say NO to concessions. You draw up a minimum wage for each equipment category as well as days off and work rules and say "NO ALPA carrier will be allowed to sign for less than this". Then you let mgmt know where this minimum line is and that the airline will be shut down when the pilots strike over it.

Ok Lear.. fine. How. For the love of god and all things holy please discuss the practical application of your ideas. How do we implement! It one thing to ramble on the message boards about your ideas it is another to convince others your ideas are valid and workable and then acutally implement them. This is where you fall off the map!

What would be great is Mach 5 passenger travel. NYC to Tokyo in 2 hours. Sounds great. How do you do it.

Actually, we tried to say no to concessions. But the pilot groups of NWA, Airtran, DAL, AMR, and UAL all said yes collectively via TA's and democratic votes. So as a minority, who is your issue really with? The leadership or the membership?

Riddle me this. If we say no to concessions then management will get the cost cut another way. Furloughs. Unions don't control hiring and terminations. So, if the unions say no to negotiate concessions managment will simply furlough more pilots. So the union can negotiate pay cuts so more guys can pay thier house note or do it the lear70 way and more guys cannot pay thier house note.

If an airline can't afford to pay, too fu*king bad. They need to learn how to compete on cost without robbing the employees who make it happen every day.

Great. How. How. how. I'm sure the profanity will be convincing too.

Incidentally, I didn't need to go to Prater's website to find that approach, I read it off the press release directly from HIS quote, or did your keen skills of observation (since you can obviously be present to see what anyone is doing on any given day with their union) miss that part?

Prater is one guy. What we need is more pilots particapting. What if pilots only gave thier dues money and that is it. What if pilots were very active showing up at rallys, picketing, LEC meetings, PACs contributions, etc... Just thinking about it you can see the difference in effectiveness.

Where is the effectiveness? Smugly thinking Prater is going to single handedly change this profession? Or getting involved in your career?

 

[Peanut gallery]

We are getting way off track here

Back to the original topic. Duane is truely worthless, he will not be missed and he should leave knowing that. He should hang his head in shame and his children should wonder the earth in search of a place where they can live free from the shame that he has brought upon them.

There:smash: I feel better now, thanks alot Duane you worthless piece of.........

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Back to the original topic. Duane is truely worthless, he will not be missed and he should leave knowing that. He should hang his head in shame and his children should wonder the earth in search of a place where they can live free from the shame that he has brought upon them.

There:smash: I feel better now, thanks alot Duane you worthless piece of.........

I'd agree with you if you could provide convincing examples of..... here it comes.....how Duane was woerthless.....

 

[Jonny Sacko]

I'd agree with you if you could provide convincing examples of..... here it comes.....how Duane was woerthless.....

Because he's got 1 person standing up for him. Hmmm

 

[F9FORme]

http://www.johnprater2006.com/index-1.html

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because he's got 1 person standing up for him. Hmmm

There was a 1% difference in the vote.



Is there any real debate?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I'd agree with you if you could provide convincing examples of..... here it comes.....how Duane was woerthless.....

It starts from the top and goes all the way down in my opinion.

Under Duane's guidence we have been decimated. Airlines gutted, Uncontrolled RJ growth, substandard contract and pay rates for said RJ's, Industry wide raping of the pensions, Alter Ego airlines, sister pilot groups played against one another, junior pilots preyed upon by senior pilots(furloughed pilots...raising the hours flown by the working pilots to make more money while guys are on the street), senior pilots preyed upon by junior pilots(severing retirees pensions and medical insurance to make a few bucks more an hour for the working guys) Whole airlines shut down to get around contracts by transferring the work and aircraft to other ALPA carriers with lower pay rates(Mesa/CCAir), F/O's that fly jets that qualify for food stamps, etc etc etc..... The list goes on and on.

Lets face it, It cannot get much worse than it has under Duane's leadership. He may not be to blame for it all, but it happened on his watch. I have seen 2 furloughs, loss of my retirement, and a strike during the last 5 years. Yet everytime I pick up ALPA magazine Duane never seemed to be doing much except lobbying for Jumpseats, or trying to get me through security faster....something that I really did not care much about since, just trying to stay employed was hard enough without worring about it.

I really enjoyed the article about my last airline, a certian freight outfit that transferred half of the flying to a sister company and parked half the fleet and furloughed half the airline, potentially violating many many sections of the contract....yet in the ALPA rag it was classified as "a minor dispute." Well it sure seemed pretty major to half an airline worth of pilots!

Duane lost touch with what he was supposed to be doing, or at least that is the way it appeared to thousands and thousands of screwed pilots.

That is why he is no longer there.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

There was a 1% difference in the vote.



Is there any real debate?

That is simply because 8000+ ALPA members are currently furloughed and cannot vote!

Looking through mail, hmmmm, nope don't seem to see any ballot from ALPA national here...............

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It starts from the top and goes all the way down in my opinion.

A valid point.

What about individual leadership? ALPA is a volunteer organization. Meaning if you want to make it better there is plenty of work to do. With that said, do we sit around and wait for DW to make a move?

Under Duane's guidence we have been decimated. Airlines gutted, Uncontrolled RJ growth, substandard contract and pay rates for said RJ's, Industry wide raping of the pensions, Alter Ego airlines, sister pilot groups played against one another, junior pilots preyed upon by senior pilots(furloughed pilots...raising the hours flown by the working pilots to make more money while guys are on the street), senior pilots preyed upon by junior pilots(severing retirees pensions and medical insurance to make a few bucks more an hour for the working guys) Whole airlines shut down to get around contracts by transferring the work and aircraft to other ALPA carriers with lower pay rates(Mesa/CCAir), F/O's that fly jets that qualify for food stamps, etc etc etc..... The list goes on and on.

I hear what you are saying... but you just described what happened. Can you discuss HOW that is DW fault? What did he fail to do, specifically? Since the Presidents's job, on the National level, is to deal with national issues, alot of what you decribe above are local issues.

What about the MEC chiarman and the EVPs? Where was their role in all of this?

Lets face it, It cannot get much worse than it has under Duane's leadership. He may not be to blame for it all, but it happened on his watch. I have seen 2 furloughs, loss of my retirement, and a strike during the last 5 years. Yet everytime I pick up ALPA magazine Duane never seemed to be doing much except lobbying for Jumpseats, or trying to get me through security faster....something that I really did not care much about since, just trying to stay employed was hard enough without worring about it.

Ive seen discplacements, two furloughs and first year pay three times in five years and I am still active in the union. I am not giving up. I do think it can get alot worse. read on....

I really enjoyed the article about my last airline, a certian freight outfit that transferred half of the flying to a sister company and parked half the fleet and furloughed half the airline, potentially violating many many sections of the contract....yet in the ALPA rag it was classified as "a minor dispute." Well it sure seemed pretty major to half an airline worth of pilots!

Fair enough!

Duane lost touch with what he was supposed to be doing, or at least that is the way it appeared to thousands and thousands of screwed pilots.

That is why he is no longer there.

I agree. That was his weakness and it was exploited. DW was big into the DC scene. Which is really what we need. We need a guy that deal with Congressmen, Secretaries, etc... I hope Prater can do the same..

Globalization is going to hit us Air Line Pilots pretty hard in the next decade. If the independant unions think they can bubble themselves from the onslaught of globalization forces they better think again.

Prater has alot of work to do on the National and International level. If you think he has time to care for your MEC think again. It is time for more individuals to step up to the plate and be thier own custodians.

The disallusionment with Prater has begun.

He campaigned the preception that he would not take a salary more than his current line salary. But before the BOD was done he had secured essentially DW's compensation package minus 25K. That is not a bad thing, but the membership still doesn't get it.​

I recall, and correct me if I am wrong, that Prater stated he would still fly the line once a month. Something to make him attractive for votes. Do you want your President flying or protecting your career? I haven't seen any word on that lately....​

Prater is already, before the new week as begun after the BOD, believed to be indifferent to the regionals. Once they destroy the regionals they will come after the majors. If I were a major pilot I'd want fodder protecting me...​

What does all this really mean? Well, there really is no disillusionment. It is just a lack of understanding of the membership. Maybe Prater worked it a bit to get votes. Nothing wrong with that...

But what it really means is Prater isn't going to single handedly make this profession what we believe it should be. He is not going to be the anti-Duane. He is not going to be the opposite of everything we hated in Duane.

Finally, Prater knows what all Presidents know: ALPA-PAC. On Praters website he has two articles from 2004 and 2002 promoting the PAC. He knows it. Do you?

That is simply because 8000+ ALPA members are currently furloughed and cannot vote!

Looking through mail, hmmmm, nope don't seem to see any ballot from ALPA national here...............

you're trying to be funny.... right?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

A valid point.

I hear what you are saying... but you just described what happened. Can you discuss HOW that is DW fault? What did he fail to do, specifically? Since the Presidents's job, on the National level, is to deal with national issues, alot of what you decribe above are local issues.

Then why do we bother with a national union? If ALPA national is not going to step in and provide some guidance and rules to local memberships.....specifically involving the undercutting and outsourcing of flying ....why do I bother to pay national part of my salary? DW's massive salary from ALPA was funded by my paychecks for what, so he can help the regional MEC's draft their contract that caused the parking of my 737 in favor of their slave wage RJ? Or how about the fact that in some cases you have 6 or 7 ALPA carriers all fighting for the same flying and undercutting each other causing the pay and QOL to fall on a daily basis? Currently there is no ALPA national....all we have is individual unions that pay huge sums of money to a few guys in DC while each airline....supposedly in the same brotherhood..decimates one another.

I recall, and correct me if I am wrong, that Prater stated he would still fly the line once a month. Something to make him attractive for votes. Do you want your President flying or protecting your career? I haven't seen any word on that lately....

If he flies once in a while at least maybe it can be said that he has some clue as to what the line pilots are dealing with, something that I think it is painfully obvious that DW lost touch with.
​

Prater is already, before the new week as begun after the BOD, believed to be indifferent to the regionals. Once they destroy the regionals they will come after the majors. If I were a major pilot I'd want fodder protecting me...

I think the majors are now the fodder protecting the regionals....at least that is the case at my Major. All new flying in the last five years has gone to the RJ, and roughly half of the mainline routes have been transferred to the RJ in the last five years. Looks to me like the RJ guys have a nice pad going....other than the hideous pay rates.
​

What does all this really mean? Well, there really is no disillusionment. It is just a lack of understanding of the membership. Maybe Prater worked it a bit to get votes. Nothing wrong with that...

No I think it was clearly a lack of understanding by ALPA national of what is going on in the cockpits....again made painfully clear by DW's focus on jumpseat and TSA issues, fatigue studies, and any number of other "items of interest" instead of full attention on jobs. JS and TSA issues are but a minor sidenote, one that does not matter in the slightest to the thousands left with no retirement, no job, and decimated contracts.

But what it really means is Prater isn't going to single handedly make this profession what we believe it should be. He is not going to be the anti-Duane. He is not going to be the opposite of everything we hated in Duane.
Of course not, but maybe he can provide the leadership that is needed to help bring all the different ALPA unions back together into ONE union.....something that is id clear DW was incapable of doing.


Finally, Prater knows what all Presidents know: ALPA-PAC. On Praters website he has two articles from 2004 and 2002 promoting the PAC. He knows it. Do you?

Of course, but since I am currently furloughed yet again...put out of work by another ALPA union..again........I am doing good to keep a roof over my head right now, but DW wouldn't know anything about that would he...what was his salary again last year? What was the average line pilots salary last year? How about the RJ pilots salary? DW has more in common with the CEO's than he did with the pilots, and that as I said before is why he is gone.

.........