Bye Bye Woerthless

[soardtk]

How does the election for ALPA president work? Do all ALPA members vote or does only the BOD do the actual voting, supposedly representing their members?

Starts with the LEC meetings where you nominate LEC reps then vote them into the MEC. Your choice of reps now become BOD members who vote for national officers. That is why it is so important to be involved at your LEC level.

 

[Lear70]

That is kind of funny... Rez has been VERY active in a thread defending ALPA in the last 48 hours, but hasn't said ANYTHING here...?

Heh heh... pretty funny stuff right thar!

Incidentally, Prater talks a tough line about "returning to the hard-nose tactics" of yester-year, and I like it, but we'll see if he walks the walk.

At least it'll be different than the same ol' same ol'.

 

[hoover]

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

 

[Palomino]

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

ok. i'll fire a shot. this is the most poorly thought out statement i have ever seen on here. settle for mediocrity in the face of soaring industry profits? i don't think so.

the industry sustained excellent wages during United & Delta's victorious contracts. if you will recall the entire free world changed shortly thereafter.

why should i strive for modest gains while the lawyers and the company brass drop in for a few months and pillage the place? the pilots have made the largest commitment to the company and should be rewarded in return.

if we ask for modest gains then that's the baseline that they will steal from when they can't figure out how to make money in a booming industry. not my problem.

i know what i'm worth and it's a heckuva lot more than your philosophy.

 

[Spiritflight]

...Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

The Mesaba guys settled for "modest gains" in their own contract in January of 2004. How well did that work out for them???

 

[Tank]

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

Sounds like a DP statement!!

 

[Lear70]

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

If you insist.

BULLSH*T. The thinking that has to STOP is this "live to fight another day" mantra. This is the most assinine thing I've seen in the face of how our industry has changed.

You're absolutely right, DAL, UAL, and other carriers took HUGE hits over their equally-large increases in their last non-bankruptcy contract (which, by the way, is coming up on being almost a DECADE old).

So why should they go for MODEST gains when they are making LESS NOW than they were BEFORE THE BIG CONTRACT GAINS OF THE LATE 90'S??!!

In other words, the next contracts should simply say: "We want pay and QOL raises to put us where we WOULD have been NOW if we had simply kept our contract from the mid-80's and adjust for COLA and longevity."

These companies are PROFITABLE. It's time for them to share the wealth and put pilots back where we belong in terms of pay and QOL.

"MODEST" gains isn't going to cut it. Share the wealth or shut down. I've started over 4 times, one more isn't going to hurt me all that much.

 

[XJohXJ]

The Mesaba guys settled for "modest gains" in their own contract in January of 2004. How well did that work out for them???

Just worth repeating. Our contract as it is NOW, prior to any possible concessions, is inadequate! We need enhancements, not concessions.

 

[hoover]

The industry is in the shape it is in, because labor keeps trying to return it back to the days before 1978, in terms of pay and work rules. You get big raises, but in your mind that just makes up for the concessions that took place as a result of the need to control/reduce costs after deregulation.

Then you take another concession, so the next time around you ask for an even bigger raise, then another round of concessions, followed by another round of even bigger raises.

Airlines make huge profits, then turn around and post huge losses. At the end of the day the net increase is minimal or none. Warren Buffett said it. The airlines have historically never made money. This is in part because of your attitude towards the concessions.

Where does it end? It ends up in bankruptcy and shutdown, when the cash runs out. Look at the number of airlines out there today vs the number there were 30 years ago. There were dozens of good carriers out there. But competiton became so fierce that they kept failing or merging, to the point where we have barely half a dozen carriers that mean anything. That number will continue to shrink.

The only way it will ever turn around permanently is when everyone gets it in their heads that they have to move forward...modestly.

The irony here is that there are probably very few of you left flying who actually remember the "good old days". Most of you were hired on post-1978, as a result of the job opportunities that were created by the very concessions you are now trying to undo.

And you actually have the nerve to get mad at the guys who sign on to fly RJ's for 1/3rd of the pay. Why? They are just doing the same thing you did 20 years ago. What choice do they have? It's not like there are good jobs out there to go to. You made sure of that.

In the end I don't really care. Just keep selling tickets for $99.

 

[Lear70]

The industry is in the shape it is in, because labor keeps trying to return it back to the days before 1978, in terms of pay and work rules. You get big raises, but in your mind that just makes up for the concessions that took place as a result of the need to control/reduce costs after deregulation.

You're absolutely right about that. The large raises DO make up for the concessions that were taken.

You're wrong about the need to control/reduce costs after deregulation.

Costs were just fine until management started taking more and more of the pie while, at the same time, reducing fares in an attempt to undercut the next guy to fill more airplanes while growing at an absurdly high rate. Or do you not remember the expansion that took place in the late 70's / early 80's?

Do you remember management salary increases? Take a look, it's eye-watering how much they've increased while our compensation has steadily decreased in equivalent dollars...

Then you take another concession, so the next time around you ask for an even bigger raise, then another round of concessions, followed by another round of even bigger raises.

You're correct, that cycle isn't healthy. Start with where we were 20 years ago, add COLA and longevity, and cap it as a BASE starting point. "THIS salary, and NO lower." For EVERY SINGLE ALPA CARRIER.

If the airline can't afford it, they shut down. If an INDIVIDUAL ALPA carrier is able to negotiate more, so be it. But there MUST be a MINIMUM wage base established.

Incidentally, if you haven't noticed, the concessions are always more than the raises, when inflation is taken into account. Go do the math.

Airlines make huge profits, then turn around and post huge losses. At the end of the day the net increase is minimal or none. Warren Buffett said it. The airlines have historically never made money. This is in part because of your attitude towards the concessions.

That's the biggest load of horsesh*t I've ever heard from you. Buffet is right, but labor doesn't have sh*t to do with it and you should know better.

Pilot labor costs are an EXTREMELY small part of the puzzle. Pilot labor costs have NEVER been the "make or break" of ANY airline. Fuel costs, aircraft lease rates, efficiency, and profit margin (which is a result of all of the prior) have ALWAYS been the problem and always will be.

Ticket prices are the main concern right now since the cost of oil has receded somewhat, and those are coming up, too, and GUESS WHAT? Airlines are now posting a PROFIT since the ticket prices are going up. Imagine fu*king that!

SHAME on you for pointing the finger of blame at the pilots. Again, guess what? Everyone else here knows better.

Where does it end? It ends up in bankruptcy and shutdown, when the cash runs out.

That's exactly right. Sink or swim, THAT'S how deregulation was SUPPOSED to work, instead of all the bailouts after the CEO's take their golden parachtes and jump.

Look at the number of airlines out there today vs the number there were 30 years ago. There were dozens of good carriers out there. But competiton became so fierce that they kept failing or merging, to the point where we have barely half a dozen carriers that mean anything. That number will continue to shrink.

Yes, they probably will. That's a result of deregulation and the airline's practice of competing with fares instead of better service/schedule, NOT of labor rates.

The only way it will ever turn around permanently is when everyone gets it in their heads that they have to move forward...modestly.

That's airline management's job. Make the airline profitable and grow... modestly. Unfortunately that's not how you make money with an airline. You make money off stock options, making the company look like it has a golden future, watching the stock double and tripple, cashing out, then running. Until THAT pattern stops, we will continue to see profit/bankruptcy/profit/bankruptcy. THAT'S the cycle YOU need to understand needs to be broken.

The irony here is that there are probably very few of you left flying who actually remember the "good old days". Most of you were hired on post-1978, as a result of the job opportunities that were created by the very concessions you are now trying to undo.

Whoa whoa whoa, wait a second. Are you trying to say age 60 attrition has nothing to do with it? That growth is the SOLE means of the openings going on at the majors and that's due to CONCESSIONS?

ARE YOU FU*KING SH*TTING ME WITH THIS? You need to pass some of that stuff you're smokin', cause it's obviously REALLY good...

*hint* Growth doesn't have jack crap to do with concessions, it has everything to do with the larger profit margin created by lower lease rates, lower oil cost, and increased ticket sales. Again, pilot labor rates make up less than 1% of the total CASM. Do some research...

And you actually have the nerve to get mad at the guys who sign on to fly RJ's for 1/3rd of the pay. Why? They are just doing the same thing you did 20 years ago.

Wrong, genius. The pilots of 20 years ago mostly came out of the military, with a small percentage (less than 20%) out of civilian jet jobs (citations, lears, gulfstreams, the ocassional King Air pilot). NOT the regionals. Regionals didn't really exist 20 years ago except for a few turboprop carriers.

Again, WTF are you smoking?

What choice do they have? It's not like there are good jobs out there to go to. You made sure of that.

They have the same choice the MSA pilots are making. Deal with crap pay or STFD. And good for them, it has to stop somewhere...

In the end I don't really care. Just keep selling tickets for $99.

I hope not. I've been preaching for years that fares need to increase DRAMATICALLY. When it costs less to fly than it does to go Greyhound, something's very very WRONG...

Maybe as SWA's fuel hedges run out and their costs increase (and they raise prices to cover), we'll finally see a little sunshine. Passengers will b*tch, but that's just too d*mn bad. If you don't like it, drive.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

You're just not too bright either! The ANSWER (as if you have a slight clue) is employee's determining managements pay. PERIOD.

Good year, good management, give bonus'

Typical idiots like you running everything into ground and taking 13million bonus. HANG FROM NEAREST TREE!



"We need modesty, ya, modesty. Please be modest. I'm going to take a bonus, but please be modest. PS I'm gay"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez has been on a three day trip with no computer... but you can pull your wadded panties out now that I am back...

It's all about the politics. alpa is just a business. If there where no politics involved and alpo was really out to help the pilots,

The most ill informed "I don't understand" statement on this thread...

Don't know anything about the new guy, except that he is promising/threatening a return to hard nosed tactics. That's not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Both United and Delta played hardball in the last few years. Where did it get them? A short-term gain, followed by concessions so deep that it took them back 20 years. Eastern played hard-ball, and the thing it got them was a place on the unemployment line.

The short-term thinking has to stop. Don't try to be"on top on time", "industry leading", "United+1" or whatever. Instead, strive for modest gains in your own contract regardless of what is going on at the other carriers. In the long run I think you will be better off.

My .02
Fire Away

You can't represent your pilots from the parking lot.

Sure your pissed and want to throw nuclear hand grenades with THEBEST and LEAR70 enscribed on the sides..... all in the name of Air Line Pilots... and that works in the short term. But whe policy planning occures... guess what! You don't get invited to the meeting!

Hoover, if they want to be militant wacko's that satisfy emotional voids....go for it.. they really don't have the skill set or the audience to go futher than... say a moniker message board....

However, it seems you know a littel more than the lunatic fringe...

 

[Lear70]

Ummm... Rez... you posted on the other DW/ALPA thread just on Wednesday night.

Yeah, gone on a 3-day trip without a computer but were able to respond to the other thread. I think not.

Good try, though.

Incidentally, current ALPA policy of "live to fight another day" doesn't work either, now does it?

Don't even insult my intelligence by trying to support it. We both know better... Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm and they know they are in REAL danger of losing their golden cow, they might actually have to manage an airline responsibly.

oooh oohh, THERE'S a novel concept.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ummm... Rez... you posted on the other DW/ALPA thread just on Wednesday night.

Yeah, gone on a 3-day trip without a computer but were able to respond to the other thread. I think not.

Good try, though.

Wow. You know what I did, even when I don't. OK Lear70, if you believe that I was on line Weds nite, then it must be true. Don't let anyone else tell you different. You tell truth and reality who's boss!

Incidentally, current ALPA policy of "live to fight another day" doesn't work either, now does it?

I guess it all depends one what unit of measure you use. I offer that if you get informed on the issues. Stop talking. Stop typing in CAPS and listen. You might understand what is going on.. Rather your modus operandi suggests your militantcy is uncooperative and thus not really given the time of day when it comes to addressing the issues. Therefore, you aren't afforded the specifics on the issues, don't have all the information and act accordingly.

Don't even insult my intelligence by trying to support it. We both know better... Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm and they know they are in REAL danger of losing their golden cow, they might actually have to manage an airline responsibly.

Lear, since you know and I don't what I was doing Weds night, I am not going to even try to address your intelligence. You are wat too smart for me. What did I do last night? Can you even tell me what I will do tomorrow night? You da man!

But I will suggest this... You stated "Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm"

Since you said it... I ask you this: HOW are we to be more hard nosed? How do we get management to know they can't push us around? Since you challenge me not to insult your intellegence, can you offer real applicable action that will provide results.

OR

If you want to say that is Prater's job for him to figure out, can you reference his website that discusses the hardnose approach.

Eitherway, back up your statements and let me know...

oooh oohh, THERE'S a novel concept.

A novel concept would be pilots participating in thier careers. You keep saying we need hard nosed action and I keep saying pilots need to actually get involved.

Have you sent money to CAPA-PAC yet Lear? Or do have some elaborate conspiarcy reason why it is a good idea in theory but it just isn't practical for you...

Imagine.. actually particapting in events that effect your airline career....

Now there is a novel concept.

 

[Lear70]

Wow. You know what I did, even when I don't. OK Lear70, if you believe that I was on line Weds nite, then it must be true. Don't let anyone else tell you different. You tell truth and reality who's boss!

Hmmm... had a little too much morning coffee, have we?

I was looking at the thread you started about DW several days ago and read the date of your last post on it incorrectly. Yes, I said incorrectly because I, unlike yourself, can admit an error.

Have you sent money to CAPA-PAC yet Lear? Or do have some elaborate conspiarcy reason why it is a good idea in theory but it just isn't practical for you...

Imagine.. actually particapting in events that effect your airline career....

Now there is a novel concept.

And there YOU go, knowing exactly how I have or have not gotten involved in the events shaping my career. Since you know what I haven't done, tell me exactly how many years I DIDN'T volunteer in ALPA committees, tell me how I DIDN'T spend countless hours working on PCL ALPA projects.

Please, enlighten us on how YOU know EXACTLY how I do or do not participate in events that affect my career?

*hint* This is where you own up to your mistake in ASSuming I am uninvolved.

I guess it all depends one what unit of measure you use. I offer that if you get informed on the issues. Stop talking. Stop typing in CAPS and listen. You might understand what is going on..

I type in CAPS only to put stress on certain words so that my typing comes across like I would say it. It's not intended to be a shout, other people understand this. Basically, I'm too lazy to use the bold feature.

Incidentally, I listen just fine; I simply don't hear anything but the same old bullsh*t that's gotten ALPA carriers absolutely NOWHERE in the last couple decades.

The rules have changed. Dinosaurs like you need to learn to adapt.

Rather your modus operandi suggests your militantcy is uncooperative and thus not really given the time of day when it comes to addressing the issues. Therefore, you aren't afforded the specifics on the issues, don't have all the information and act accordingly.

Hmmm... there you go again. Because you are there PERSONALLY every time I talk to a status rep or the MEC chair. Because you PERSONALLY have witnessed how these people wouldn't talk to me about the issues. Incidentally, (2 of them at PCL were very good personal friends, so again, time for you to own up to your error.

But I will suggest this... You stated "Time for a new more hard-nosed approach. Until mgmt knows they can't push us around anymore, nothing will change. When we stand firm"

Since you said it... I ask you this: HOW are we to be more hard nosed? How do we get management to know they can't push us around? Since you challenge me not to insult your intellegence, can you offer real applicable action that will provide results.

I already have, you're simply overlooking not only this thread but past posts where you and I (and the 90% of other people out there who know that the current ALPA stance doesn't work) have butted heads on the issue.

You simply say NO to concessions. You draw up a minimum wage for each equipment category as well as days off and work rules and say "NO ALPA carrier will be allowed to sign for less than this". Then you let mgmt know where this minimum line is and that the airline will be shut down when the pilots strike over it.

If an airline can't afford to pay, too fu*king bad. They need to learn how to compete on cost without robbing the employees who make it happen every day.

Incidentally, I didn't need to go to Prater's website to find that approach, I read it off the press release directly from HIS quote, or did your keen skills of observation (since you can obviously be present to see what anyone is doing on any given day with their union) miss that part?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hmmm... had a little too much morning coffee, have we?

I was looking at the thread you started about DW several days ago and read the date of your last post on it incorrectly. Yes, I said incorrectly because I, unlike yourself, can admit an error.

Ok, your right and I am wrong. No wait you said you were wrong. But that is ok. I'll be wrong.

And there YOU go, knowing exactly how I have or have not gotten involved in the events shaping my career. Since you know what I haven't done, tell me exactly how many years I DIDN'T volunteer in ALPA committees, tell me how I DIDN'T spend countless hours working on PCL ALPA projects.

Please, enlighten us on how YOU know EXACTLY how I do or do not participate in events that affect my career?

*hint* This is where you own up to your mistake in ASSuming I am uninvolved.

Om you're right and I am wrong.

I guess it all depends one what unit of measure you use. I offer that if you get informed on the issues. Stop talking. Stop typing in CAPS and listen. You might understand what is going on..

I type in CAPS only to put stress on certain words so that my typing comes across like I would say it. It's not intended to be a shout, other people understand this. Basically, I'm too lazy to use the bold feature.

Is a consideration of how others precieve your M.O. on the issues valid?

Incidentally, I listen just fine; I simply don't hear anything but the same old bullsh*t that's gotten ALPA carriers absolutely NOWHERE in the last couple decades.

The rules have changed. Dinosaurs like you need to learn to adapt.

Not sure if you do listen. You seem to stand firm on the course of action you believe to be correct. The problem is... no one is taking that course of action. Why is that? Is the ALPA membership and/or leadership wrong and you're right?

Again.. the course of action you suggest is not being implemented!!! Does that mean anything to you!

Hmmm... there you go again. Because you are there PERSONALLY every time I talk to a status rep or the MEC chair. Because you PERSONALLY have witnessed how these people wouldn't talk to me about the issues. Incidentally, (2 of them at PCL were very good personal friends, so again, time for you to own up to your error.

Ok you're right and I am wrong.

Have you contributed in CAPA-PAC? You didn't answer from my last post.

I already have, you're simply overlooking not only this thread but past posts where you and I (and the 90% of other people out there who know that the current ALPA stance doesn't work) have butted heads on the issue.

90% of the other people? I didn't realize that you reprsented and spoke for 90% of the other people. Wow. Impressive.

You simply say NO to concessions. You draw up a minimum wage for each equipment category as well as days off and work rules and say "NO ALPA carrier will be allowed to sign for less than this". Then you let mgmt know where this minimum line is and that the airline will be shut down when the pilots strike over it.

Ok Lear.. fine. How. For the love of god and all things holy please discuss the practical application of your ideas. How do we implement! It one thing to ramble on the message boards about your ideas it is another to convince others your ideas are valid and workable and then acutally implement them. This is where you fall off the map!

What would be great is Mach 5 passenger travel. NYC to Tokyo in 2 hours. Sounds great. How do you do it.

Actually, we tried to say no to concessions. But the pilot groups of NWA, Airtran, DAL, AMR, and UAL all said yes collectively via TA's and democratic votes. So as a minority, who is your issue really with? The leadership or the membership?

Riddle me this. If we say no to concessions then management will get the cost cut another way. Furloughs. Unions don't control hiring and terminations. So, if the unions say no to negotiate concessions managment will simply furlough more pilots. So the union can negotiate pay cuts so more guys can pay thier house note or do it the lear70 way and more guys cannot pay thier house note.

If an airline can't afford to pay, too fu*king bad. They need to learn how to compete on cost without robbing the employees who make it happen every day.

Great. How. How. how. I'm sure the profanity will be convincing too.

Incidentally, I didn't need to go to Prater's website to find that approach, I read it off the press release directly from HIS quote, or did your keen skills of observation (since you can obviously be present to see what anyone is doing on any given day with their union) miss that part?

Prater is one guy. What we need is more pilots particapting. What if pilots only gave thier dues money and that is it. What if pilots were very active showing up at rallys, picketing, LEC meetings, PACs contributions, etc... Just thinking about it you can see the difference in effectiveness.

Where is the effectiveness? Smugly thinking Prater is going to single handedly change this profession? Or getting involved in your career?

 

[Peanut gallery]

We are getting way off track here

Back to the original topic. Duane is truely worthless, he will not be missed and he should leave knowing that. He should hang his head in shame and his children should wonder the earth in search of a place where they can live free from the shame that he has brought upon them.

There:smash: I feel better now, thanks alot Duane you worthless piece of.........

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Back to the original topic. Duane is truely worthless, he will not be missed and he should leave knowing that. He should hang his head in shame and his children should wonder the earth in search of a place where they can live free from the shame that he has brought upon them.

There:smash: I feel better now, thanks alot Duane you worthless piece of.........

I'd agree with you if you could provide convincing examples of..... here it comes.....how Duane was woerthless.....

 

[Jonny Sacko]

I'd agree with you if you could provide convincing examples of..... here it comes.....how Duane was woerthless.....

Because he's got 1 person standing up for him. Hmmm

 

[F9FORme]

http://www.johnprater2006.com/index-1.html