Bye Bye Woerthless

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because he's got 1 person standing up for him. Hmmm

There was a 1% difference in the vote.



Is there any real debate?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I'd agree with you if you could provide convincing examples of..... here it comes.....how Duane was woerthless.....

It starts from the top and goes all the way down in my opinion.

Under Duane's guidence we have been decimated. Airlines gutted, Uncontrolled RJ growth, substandard contract and pay rates for said RJ's, Industry wide raping of the pensions, Alter Ego airlines, sister pilot groups played against one another, junior pilots preyed upon by senior pilots(furloughed pilots...raising the hours flown by the working pilots to make more money while guys are on the street), senior pilots preyed upon by junior pilots(severing retirees pensions and medical insurance to make a few bucks more an hour for the working guys) Whole airlines shut down to get around contracts by transferring the work and aircraft to other ALPA carriers with lower pay rates(Mesa/CCAir), F/O's that fly jets that qualify for food stamps, etc etc etc..... The list goes on and on.

Lets face it, It cannot get much worse than it has under Duane's leadership. He may not be to blame for it all, but it happened on his watch. I have seen 2 furloughs, loss of my retirement, and a strike during the last 5 years. Yet everytime I pick up ALPA magazine Duane never seemed to be doing much except lobbying for Jumpseats, or trying to get me through security faster....something that I really did not care much about since, just trying to stay employed was hard enough without worring about it.

I really enjoyed the article about my last airline, a certian freight outfit that transferred half of the flying to a sister company and parked half the fleet and furloughed half the airline, potentially violating many many sections of the contract....yet in the ALPA rag it was classified as "a minor dispute." Well it sure seemed pretty major to half an airline worth of pilots!

Duane lost touch with what he was supposed to be doing, or at least that is the way it appeared to thousands and thousands of screwed pilots.

That is why he is no longer there.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

There was a 1% difference in the vote.



Is there any real debate?

That is simply because 8000+ ALPA members are currently furloughed and cannot vote!

Looking through mail, hmmmm, nope don't seem to see any ballot from ALPA national here...............

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It starts from the top and goes all the way down in my opinion.

A valid point.

What about individual leadership? ALPA is a volunteer organization. Meaning if you want to make it better there is plenty of work to do. With that said, do we sit around and wait for DW to make a move?

Under Duane's guidence we have been decimated. Airlines gutted, Uncontrolled RJ growth, substandard contract and pay rates for said RJ's, Industry wide raping of the pensions, Alter Ego airlines, sister pilot groups played against one another, junior pilots preyed upon by senior pilots(furloughed pilots...raising the hours flown by the working pilots to make more money while guys are on the street), senior pilots preyed upon by junior pilots(severing retirees pensions and medical insurance to make a few bucks more an hour for the working guys) Whole airlines shut down to get around contracts by transferring the work and aircraft to other ALPA carriers with lower pay rates(Mesa/CCAir), F/O's that fly jets that qualify for food stamps, etc etc etc..... The list goes on and on.

I hear what you are saying... but you just described what happened. Can you discuss HOW that is DW fault? What did he fail to do, specifically? Since the Presidents's job, on the National level, is to deal with national issues, alot of what you decribe above are local issues.

What about the MEC chiarman and the EVPs? Where was their role in all of this?

Lets face it, It cannot get much worse than it has under Duane's leadership. He may not be to blame for it all, but it happened on his watch. I have seen 2 furloughs, loss of my retirement, and a strike during the last 5 years. Yet everytime I pick up ALPA magazine Duane never seemed to be doing much except lobbying for Jumpseats, or trying to get me through security faster....something that I really did not care much about since, just trying to stay employed was hard enough without worring about it.

Ive seen discplacements, two furloughs and first year pay three times in five years and I am still active in the union. I am not giving up. I do think it can get alot worse. read on....

I really enjoyed the article about my last airline, a certian freight outfit that transferred half of the flying to a sister company and parked half the fleet and furloughed half the airline, potentially violating many many sections of the contract....yet in the ALPA rag it was classified as "a minor dispute." Well it sure seemed pretty major to half an airline worth of pilots!

Fair enough!

Duane lost touch with what he was supposed to be doing, or at least that is the way it appeared to thousands and thousands of screwed pilots.

That is why he is no longer there.

I agree. That was his weakness and it was exploited. DW was big into the DC scene. Which is really what we need. We need a guy that deal with Congressmen, Secretaries, etc... I hope Prater can do the same..

Globalization is going to hit us Air Line Pilots pretty hard in the next decade. If the independant unions think they can bubble themselves from the onslaught of globalization forces they better think again.

Prater has alot of work to do on the National and International level. If you think he has time to care for your MEC think again. It is time for more individuals to step up to the plate and be thier own custodians.

The disallusionment with Prater has begun.

He campaigned the preception that he would not take a salary more than his current line salary. But before the BOD was done he had secured essentially DW's compensation package minus 25K. That is not a bad thing, but the membership still doesn't get it.​

I recall, and correct me if I am wrong, that Prater stated he would still fly the line once a month. Something to make him attractive for votes. Do you want your President flying or protecting your career? I haven't seen any word on that lately....​

Prater is already, before the new week as begun after the BOD, believed to be indifferent to the regionals. Once they destroy the regionals they will come after the majors. If I were a major pilot I'd want fodder protecting me...​

What does all this really mean? Well, there really is no disillusionment. It is just a lack of understanding of the membership. Maybe Prater worked it a bit to get votes. Nothing wrong with that...

But what it really means is Prater isn't going to single handedly make this profession what we believe it should be. He is not going to be the anti-Duane. He is not going to be the opposite of everything we hated in Duane.

Finally, Prater knows what all Presidents know: ALPA-PAC. On Praters website he has two articles from 2004 and 2002 promoting the PAC. He knows it. Do you?

That is simply because 8000+ ALPA members are currently furloughed and cannot vote!

Looking through mail, hmmmm, nope don't seem to see any ballot from ALPA national here...............

you're trying to be funny.... right?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

A valid point.

I hear what you are saying... but you just described what happened. Can you discuss HOW that is DW fault? What did he fail to do, specifically? Since the Presidents's job, on the National level, is to deal with national issues, alot of what you decribe above are local issues.

Then why do we bother with a national union? If ALPA national is not going to step in and provide some guidance and rules to local memberships.....specifically involving the undercutting and outsourcing of flying ....why do I bother to pay national part of my salary? DW's massive salary from ALPA was funded by my paychecks for what, so he can help the regional MEC's draft their contract that caused the parking of my 737 in favor of their slave wage RJ? Or how about the fact that in some cases you have 6 or 7 ALPA carriers all fighting for the same flying and undercutting each other causing the pay and QOL to fall on a daily basis? Currently there is no ALPA national....all we have is individual unions that pay huge sums of money to a few guys in DC while each airline....supposedly in the same brotherhood..decimates one another.

I recall, and correct me if I am wrong, that Prater stated he would still fly the line once a month. Something to make him attractive for votes. Do you want your President flying or protecting your career? I haven't seen any word on that lately....

If he flies once in a while at least maybe it can be said that he has some clue as to what the line pilots are dealing with, something that I think it is painfully obvious that DW lost touch with.
​

Prater is already, before the new week as begun after the BOD, believed to be indifferent to the regionals. Once they destroy the regionals they will come after the majors. If I were a major pilot I'd want fodder protecting me...

I think the majors are now the fodder protecting the regionals....at least that is the case at my Major. All new flying in the last five years has gone to the RJ, and roughly half of the mainline routes have been transferred to the RJ in the last five years. Looks to me like the RJ guys have a nice pad going....other than the hideous pay rates.
​

What does all this really mean? Well, there really is no disillusionment. It is just a lack of understanding of the membership. Maybe Prater worked it a bit to get votes. Nothing wrong with that...

No I think it was clearly a lack of understanding by ALPA national of what is going on in the cockpits....again made painfully clear by DW's focus on jumpseat and TSA issues, fatigue studies, and any number of other "items of interest" instead of full attention on jobs. JS and TSA issues are but a minor sidenote, one that does not matter in the slightest to the thousands left with no retirement, no job, and decimated contracts.

But what it really means is Prater isn't going to single handedly make this profession what we believe it should be. He is not going to be the anti-Duane. He is not going to be the opposite of everything we hated in Duane.
Of course not, but maybe he can provide the leadership that is needed to help bring all the different ALPA unions back together into ONE union.....something that is id clear DW was incapable of doing.


Finally, Prater knows what all Presidents know: ALPA-PAC. On Praters website he has two articles from 2004 and 2002 promoting the PAC. He knows it. Do you?

Of course, but since I am currently furloughed yet again...put out of work by another ALPA union..again........I am doing good to keep a roof over my head right now, but DW wouldn't know anything about that would he...what was his salary again last year? What was the average line pilots salary last year? How about the RJ pilots salary? DW has more in common with the CEO's than he did with the pilots, and that as I said before is why he is gone.

.........

 

[BluDevAv8r]

That is simply because 8000+ ALPA members are currently furloughed and cannot vote!

Looking through mail, hmmmm, nope don't seem to see any ballot from ALPA national here...............

ALPA members don't vote for the president. Only the elected domicile/status reps vote (they all constitute the BOD).

-Neal

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Then why do we bother with a national union? If ALPA national is not going to step in and provide some guidance and rules to local memberships.....specifically involving the undercutting and outsourcing of flying ....why do I bother to pay national part of my salary? DW's massive salary from ALPA was funded by my paychecks for what, so he can help the regional MEC's draft their contract that caused the parking of my 737 in favor of their slave wage RJ? Or how about the fact that in some cases you have 6 or 7 ALPA carriers all fighting for the same flying and undercutting each other causing the pay and QOL to fall on a daily basis? Currently there is no ALPA national....all we have is individual unions that pay huge sums of money to a few guys in DC while each airline....supposedly in the same brotherhood..decimates one another.

We have a national union to deal with national issues. Your quote above discusses what is happening to you.. specifically you. That is important. What is also important is what is happening on the national level and now in the near future, the international level. We have IFALPA for a reason. What happend internationally and nationally effects us all on the local level. Those effects are accurately detialed by you above.

The solution to the problems can be found on the local, national and international level.

Right now, most ALPA pilots only know about local issues and what they know is often misguided. ALPA pilots must getinformed on the national level. the Capital hill issues. And now the Int'l issues too.

As far as pay. In another thread I broke down the national salaries. If you really think the issues is over compensation, then think again. In addtion, Prater just accepted the same compensation package as DW minus 25K.

The issue isn't National salaries. the isssue is membership effectiveness.

If he flies once in a while at least maybe it can be said that he has some clue as to what the line pilots are dealing with, something that I think it is painfully obvious that DW lost touch with.

DW did lose a connection with the membership. But the ALPA national officers are polticians. just like your MEC and LEC guys. Do we want a pilot dealing with polticians in DC or a politican who understands pilots dealing with other politicans in DC.

If you are sued within the avaition industry do you want a pilot prentending to be a lawyer or do you want a lawyer prentending to be a pilot?

I think the majors are now the fodder protecting the regionals....at least that is the case at my Major. All new flying in the last five years has gone to the RJ, and roughly half of the mainline routes have been transferred to the RJ in the last five years. Looks to me like the RJ guys have a nice pad going....other than the hideous pay rates.

Eitherway, none of us should be fodder for the other.

No I think it was clearly a lack of understanding by ALPA national of what is going on in the cockpits....again made painfully clear by DW's focus on jumpseat and TSA issues, fatigue studies, and any number of other "items of interest" instead of full attention on jobs. JS and TSA issues are but a minor sidenote, one that does not matter in the slightest to the thousands left with no retirement, no job, and decimated contracts.

JS is a major issue. I for one could not do this job without it. Thus i would have no job, no retirement and a 100% pay cut. JS is just one of many critical issues that have to be managed.

Decimated contracts? Why is that ALPA Nationals fault? When the pilots on the local level authorized thier NC to engage. And when the NC delivered a decimated contract the local pilots voted clearly with a yes. Why does everyone overlook this and try to blame ALPA National?

Of course not, but maybe he can provide the leadership that is needed to help bring all the different ALPA unions back together into ONE union.....something that is id clear DW was incapable of doing.

HOW? Do you think DW couldn't or wouldn't? If he could then HOW. or are we blindly putting faith into Prater becuase he isn't DW.

This is a shared responsibility. We can't just pay our dues and maybe vote and hope.

We have got to be engaged in our own careers.

Of course, but since I am currently furloughed yet again...put out of work by another ALPA union..again........I am doing good to keep a roof over my head right now, but DW wouldn't know anything about that would he...what was his salary again last year? What was the average line pilots salary last year? How about the RJ pilots salary? DW has more in common with the CEO's than he did with the pilots, and that as I said before is why he is gone.

Put out of work by ALPA? How is that? Did you apply to ALPA? Did ALPA send you your termination notice?

The salary issue again? How do the salaries come into play when the membership voted by majority to accpet these decimated contracts? The gutted contracts orginated on the local level and were finalized on the local level.

check out the salary info on the next post.............

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

OK.. I'll post the info....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cactusboy53 [URL]http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/URL]
Rez;
Weak on facts??
1. Duane has not taken any paycuts (do you know otherwise?) - FACT
.

I'll help you out..........

Recall UAL2000 and DAL2001 for the increase in 2001. Then the membership started voting on concessionary contracts to lower the presidents pay. If each pilot had balls to stand up to management the Presidents pay and thier own pay would would not have dropped. By each pilot voting for concessionary contracts they were also saying....

We don't want a

• National seniority list
• National Pay Rates
• Nationwide strike

What each pilot group was saying collectively was "let's live to fight another day"


Quote:

Duane Woerth​

President​

Air Line Pilots​

Historical Salary Information

Year Salary % Raise Title

2005 $ 351,186 -15.4% PRESIDENT
2004 $ 415,026 -2.0% PRESIDENT
2002 $ 423,705 -3.5% PRESIDENT
2001 $ 439,296 40.2% PRESIDENT
2000 $ 313,392 — PRESIDENT​

​

Finally, the DOL considers expenses as income. So when Prater takes up residence in DC to represent the pilots, just like all Presidents have done, his expenses will have to be reported as income. That is what inflates the values and causes the ignorant masses to go ape sh!t.

Here is the next ALPA National Officer (there are four) First Vice President listed as number 32 below DW​

Quote:

Historical Salary Information
Year Salary % Raise Title
2005 $ 0 — First Vice-president
2004 $ 0 — First Vp
2002 $ 0 — First Vice Pres
2001 $ 0 — First Vice Pres
2000 $ 0 — First Vice Pres​

Here is salary info for the current ALPA Vice President of Admin. He is listed number 47 in pay at ALPA below DW.

Quote:

Historical Salary Information
Year Salary % Raise Title
2005 $ 0 — Vice President Admin
2004 $ 0 — Vp Administrati​

Here is the fourth Vice President listed as number 54.



Quote:

Historical Salary Information​

Year Salary % Raise Title

2005 $ 0 — Vice President Finance




​

Now, each of the three VP's still get paid from thier respective carriers and based on thier longevity and equipement they hold. Since the pilots at thier carriers have been voting to take pay cuts and save thier jobs these guys have been taking pay cuts too... Here what they make...


Quote:

First Vice-president$ 0$ 180,874$ 180,874
Vice President Admin$ 0$ 162,735$ 162,735
Vice President Finance$ 0$ 155,360$ 155,360​

Are these annual salaries ok for guys that work 12 hour days six to seven days a week?​

Finally these numbers are taken from unionfacts.org. Of course the numbers are factual but skewed. As mentioned earlier expenses must be reported as income. So the three salaries above in real dollars is even less....


Let's look at one more listing. The UAL MEC Chairman has $35,337 listed as compensation. But in reality those were his expenses.

 

[XJohXJ]

Look, REZ, I understand and appreciate many of your points, but so many things, such as the current pervaiding cut-throat-whipsaw climate can not ever be addressed at the local level, and must be addressed by national. If national can not address it by acting as a national union should (i.e. working for the good of all rather than pitting one against the other), then we are all going to lose whatever worth our careers have. Do I know exactly how to do this? No. But I am paying my share towards the salaries of experts, whatever their names may be, to tackle issues such as these for me. And I do keep in direct communications with my LEC and MEC reps.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Look, REZ, I understand and appreciate many of your points, but so many things, such as the current pervaiding cut-throat-whipsaw climate can not ever be addressed at the local level, and must be addressed by national. If national can not address it by acting as a national union should (i.e. working for the good of all rather than pitting one against the other), then we are all going to lose whatever worth our careers have. Do I know exactly how to do this? No. But I am paying my share towards the salaries of experts, whatever their names may be, to tackle issues such as these for me. And I do keep in direct communications with my LEC and MEC reps.

Agreed!

The cut throat whipsaw climate works for us in good times and bits us in poor times. An educated membership knows this.

Also, the RLA prevents us from acting like a National union.

The free market system in this country prevents us from having the hard core power that we all crave and wish to implement. That is the US of A and not the unions fault.

And I am not saying that we should just accpet this status quo.

An understanding and particaption is critically lacking in our membership. We can't expect action from out leadership if we aren't willing to do so ourselves.

Expecting our leadership to "just" act as a national union with balls is unrealistic. In order to do that alot has to happen and it starts with each member stepping up to the plate and getting involved.

It is slow methodical, boring, grey and unquantified but it is the way it works...

We can start anytime...... just.....get..... involved!

:beer: